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my stock photo on Time magazine cover
Hurray, I'm the 1,000th poster. Jul 29 09 02:59 pm Link Chris Macan wrote: Note I haven't said every photograph should be a custom, commissioned work. Stock can be just fine. My objection is what's paid to the photographer (in this case) vs. what they would have paid had they commissioned the work. The difference is far, far greater than HUGE. Jul 29 09 03:00 pm Link Christopher Hartman wrote: Why do I think your last line says it all... Jul 29 09 03:03 pm Link Chris Macan wrote: More than 2-283's for this to do the photo a bit right. They aren't really powerfull enough unless you want to shoot at 400, which I don't. I'd never use paper and plexi, just a large sheet of plexi, much better since there is no horizon line and color shift between the plexi and paper. Jul 29 09 03:14 pm Link Digital Czar wrote: If he already has the space and isn't using it, then marginal cost is close to zero. If you allocate cost to the photo business, that offsets expenses for his furniture store and makes the store more profitable. Jul 29 09 03:19 pm Link Alvah Burlas B A P wrote: He can license that image more than once. His expense on this image is ALL sunk cost. The disadvantage of sunk cost is that your money is gone. The advantage is that anything you make now is 100% profit. Jul 29 09 03:21 pm Link Eduardo Frances wrote: No no...I'm saying in general. If you currently are unable to compete with with something, you either need to change, adapt, or quit. Quitting would just be the result of being unable to make changes that would keep you in business. If I want $1,000 for a photo but no one wants to pay more than $250 and I can't afford or am unwilling to do it at $250 or find away to get someone to want to pay more than $250 to make it affordable/worth my time, there isn't really anything left other than to quit. Jul 29 09 04:02 pm Link Brooks Beauty wrote: Thank you very much sir!! That calendar I was talking to Curt about though when I last saw you...total crash and burn...ugh. Jul 29 09 04:03 pm Link Digital Czar wrote: That's supply and demand economics with a bit of good enough tossed in vs quality. Jul 29 09 04:05 pm Link Digital Czar wrote: I don't have a girlfriend right now so you'll just have to accept that I'm right. Jul 29 09 04:06 pm Link Christopher Hartman wrote: You don't want me to reply to your list of things. Jul 29 09 04:18 pm Link Lumigraphics wrote: Still doesn't mean his costs are negligible. There's no free ride even if he's in his home. There's a mortgage, and taxes, utilities, insuranace and so on, none of which is free even for a small room in his home. Jul 29 09 04:20 pm Link 26 pages, I wonder if Time has picked up any new readers. Jul 29 09 04:24 pm Link Digital Czar wrote: There is always something better. Sometimes you have to accept reality. Jul 29 09 04:26 pm Link Justin Foto wrote: If you don't want opinions, don't post in large forums and especially in active threads. Duh. Jul 29 09 05:37 pm Link Chris Macan wrote: I expect the low download factor appealed to Time, as the picture would not have been seen before except by a very few. Jul 29 09 05:43 pm Link I cant believe this is still raging on. Hey Hartman, one of these days you will be awesome, just keep working at it Jul 29 09 05:49 pm Link Didn't read through all the replies. Just saw that they are discussing this thread over on Sportshooter and also posted this: http://www.time.com/time/mediakit/1/us/ … index.html The ad rates for Time Magazine. Microstock has killed portions of the industry...Congratulations! Jul 29 09 06:05 pm Link Digital Czar wrote: You just don't get it....... Jul 29 09 06:12 pm Link Chris Macan wrote: I did look at the original...that wouldn't have gone out of my studio. Just not the way I do things as it wasn't finished. The devil is in the details. Jul 29 09 06:28 pm Link Christopher Hartman wrote: No, you're wrong. I don't want folks underselling the business and killing it for the average shooter who, if they're good at their craft, don't have to sell their soul to earn a living and get fair prices for their work. Jul 29 09 06:31 pm Link Leo Howard wrote: I already am. My photography isn't, but as you said, one of these days! Jul 29 09 09:19 pm Link Digital Czar wrote: I agree with what I bolded. The rest really isn't in your ability to control other than to become their agent. So perhaps that is what you need to do. Instead of complaining, become a photographer agent and start getting photographers higher paying jobs so they don't sell out to microstock. Jul 29 09 09:22 pm Link Jul 29 09 11:30 pm Link Lee K wrote: Its very depressing. Jul 29 09 11:40 pm Link I don't have the time to read this whole thread, but I wonder if people are missing something obvious. He got $30 for the shot of the jar with coins in it. Maybe there is $15 dollars worth of pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters in the jar. That is 30 - 15 = $15 pure profit. But what people are missing is he also got to keep the coins! which just adds to his profit! How often can you take a picture of $15 and sell that picture for $30 cold cash? That is better than doubling your money. Almost like printing your own like Ben Bernanke. I would do that everyday, if I could This sounds like a foolproof business plan. j/k Jul 30 09 02:33 am Link Gosh, and I wanted to be the 1,000th commenter! To the question here: Original Post Cherrystone wrote: Check: 848539 barepixels wrote: I've had a number of images in Time over the years. I know that they are aware of me, but thanks. To those that suggest jealousy on my part, I say no. Had he been paid a fair amount for his work, I would have congratulated him heartily. Lynn Helms Photography wrote: When you're here doing TFP, TFCD, etc, it should be gender neutral. Too many people are searching for young inexperienced women to take advantage of. When you suggest TF* for female models, I have to ask (as I did) "What's with that?" SLE Photography wrote: Nope. I get it. This isn't about MM, it's about a MM member. Period. MM's forum was the vehicle for discourse (this thread, in point of fact). I do appreciate your taking the time to write extensively on this subject. Hugh Alison wrote: Business is fine, thank you. As to a personal attack/bullying? I was calling him out on his actions that were unprofessional and/or detrimental to the industry. Lumigraphics & Christopher Hartman who wrote: It might seem to not matter, but to a lot of the paying clientele, it does. I presume you see little value in an AA, BA, or MA degree too? Dark Life wrote: I agree it is a great accomplishment, but it's not priceless, it's priced-FAR-less than it should have been! -The Dave- wrote: Indeed. Sad that the Time staffer who added the masking tape and lettering gets credit, and Mr. Lam remains in obscurity, save for threads on MM and iStock. PYPI FASHION wrote: Indeed! I have never, in 20 years as a photographer, EVER gotten a call after a client saw a photo credit. Oh, but Lam won't get that call, because Time didn't properly credit him. Digitoxin wrote: Indeed. Derick Hingle wrote: This is where One Getty sale would have earned the more than 500+ iStockphoto sales, and which is why Getty is struggling so much that they just became agressive with their FREE Stock site! Next up? Photographers paying for their images to be used as Stock. StephenEastwood wrote: Yes, everybody loves to celebrate and hold up as examples Lisa Gagne and Uri Arcurs. If they are the Angelinas and Brads of the world, then the rest of the microstock photographers are the servers who can't get an acting job. Patchouli Nyx wrote: Already happening. Fox's UReport? CNN's iReport? For a spot news thing that may be ok, but soon the pranksters will make up crap and "report" on it just to goof on Fox/CNN/etc. In the end, trusted sources are needed to tell the story. Tony Blei Photography wrote: Of course not, but the price WAS $1,500 on assignment, $3,000 stock. So Gates tells the clerk he just wants to pay $0.01, and the clerk just says ok because they don't know any better. Derick Hingle wrote: AGREED! The Main Man wrote: And herein lies the value of this discourse! You pose the question: The Main Man wrote: Yup. Buy the right license, and you surely could. You could use the photo to sell widgets, or your modeling talents. Legacys 7 wrote: Yeah, and so were the native americans who sold Manhattan for $24. Tony Blei Photography wrote: Yup, and that model SHOULD get paid fairly too! SLE Photography wrote: That doesn't make it right. Antonio Marcus wrote: Amen. Kymberly Jane wrote: NO! He did NOT "sell" it to iStock. They are supposed to be representing his best interests in the marketing and licensing of it. That didn't happen. James Jackson Fashion wrote: Among others - Omnicom (NYSE: OMC) Chris Macan wrote: No, of course not, because lumber is a commodity. But try taking the plans for that $200k house, running them off on a photocopier, (because you paid for them, right?) and then build a housing development. You'll get sued faster than you can blink. denisemc wrote: Voila! Another light-bulb goes off! Here's the gist: SLE Photography wrote: I don't think I am alone in suggesting that when anyone, whether MM, OMP, or in the backpages of local newspapers, are suggesting that only one gender can be considered for free photography in exchange for time and so on, that that has the high probability of being shady. Patchouli Nyx wrote: I do it every week on the blog as I have for over 2.5 years, and this thread is an off-shoot of that, obviously. SLE Photography wrote: There was no bias in my comments on the issue of concerns about some members of MM - it was a cursory review that was not scientific. I was illustrating a point, and generally speaking, my point was accurate. If am MM model would never be seen by agencies, then you might want to tell them your opinion, yet I would disagree with you. You're taking the biased approach that models MUST be beautiful and perfect in every way. Not true. I just cast and shot an ad where we needed real people who looked real - not perfect. You do MM models a disservice in saying that "most of the models on MM would never be SEEN by agencies." WRONG WRONG WRONG. R Studios wrote: I am aware of your furniture store, and it's marginally successful, and further, you're not running it. You work there as an hourly worker. Lastly, your hourly wages there are underwriting your photography "business", which is taking a consistent loss. At least be as honest about your "day job" as you are about the $30 you were paid. Web Inceptions wrote: Bad analogies. I buy from both types, and I do so with companies I have relationship with, and ALL are making a profit off of me. This isn't about the internet. Ma Fotographie wrote: Finally right here, about 400 posts later.... :-) Digital Czar wrote: It depends. The manipulations/changes to the work are all that they may copyright, not the newer work, generally speaking. If the changes are "deminimus" (i.e. I removed a dust spec from the sky) then that would not be copyrightable. Why Dangle wrote: Nope. If Mr. Lam were to duplicate the cover and sell it, with the Time logo, and Mr. Hochstein's contributions, he would be violating Hochstein's copyrighted additions, as well as Time's Trademarked name. not to mention the other images at the top. Robert Randall wrote: Al Satterwhite. Penny Gentieu. Oh, and since you weren't specific to photographers - Jonathan Klein, Mark Getty, and so on. Those guys won't be running companies anytime soon after Heller and Friedman are done with them. Lumigraphics wrote: A LOT! Jul 30 09 02:49 am Link John, Hi. Firstly I am an amateur photographer from the UK and openly admit that I enjoy the social aspect of meeting and taking photos of attractive women. That doesn't however mean that my reasons for doing so are in anyway motivated by an underlying as you would say dodgy reason. I fully agree with you that Time purchasing this photograph at the cost they have devalues photography and obviously has a knock on business effect to the business of professional photography. My intention is to build a successful business however this can only make that harder to do from a commercial point of view if end users are able to purchase their stock at ridiculous prices. I do feel that your comments directed at MR Lam are a little unfair, whilst I can see your argument that if people did not upload work to the stock sites, companies like Time could not purchase at those prices, and therefore would have to pay the going market rate for their stock. However I think it is probably far too late to stop this from becoming the norm for the future, sadly. I think that companies like Istock should have more commercially viable rates and tarifs in place when selling the stock and that it is they that ultimately are devaluing the price of photography. Jul 30 09 03:32 am Link John Harrington wrote: What is "A LOT"? Why would you think there is not "A LOT" making significant money off of new models now? Just because they aren't all in your small circle of old school "pro photographer" friends? Jul 30 09 03:36 am Link Patchouli Nyx wrote: John Harrington wrote: Yes....but a lot of the people here, reading discussions and forming thoughts regarding business practices and the craft of photography will never make it to your blog unfortunately. Neither will a number of the pros here on MM. Patchouli Nyx wrote: John Harrington wrote: What I wrote was a sardonic musing, but whether heartfelt or sardonic, unfortunately no one other than you and maybe one other person seemed to lament the cutbacks and necessity of professional photojournalists. Jul 30 09 03:42 am Link Chris Macan wrote: John Harrington wrote: Just as generic images like this that are listed in online libraries that anyone can buy from are commodities. Jul 30 09 06:45 am Link John Harrington wrote: You're saying it's unprofessional for uploading a simple photo of a jar of coins to a stock site that managed to find it's way to Time magazine earning him about $30? How unbelievably selfishly shallow of you to say that. I suspect your regular rubbing of elbows with politicians might be an explanation for that. You're so far removed from the "commoners" that when one of us shows up to your parties you accuse us of crashing and try to get us tossed out. It wouldn't surprise me if you're already trying to work with someone in gov't to have some stupid law passed to force us out. John Harrington wrote: Are you equating some sort of photo certificate with what people have to go through to get an AA, BA, or MA degree? Really? Jul 30 09 08:33 am Link Just by way of an example of what rate people think, they should get and what rate the market dictates you get. In the UK a few years ago, there was a tussle between Equity (an actors union) and broadcasters, particularly radio. In effect Equity were operating a monopoly and if anyone needed a voiceover they had to use an equity member who would charge equity rates ( an artificially high rate ) and no one had a choice. This was challenged and Equity lost, allowing anyone to be used as a voiceover, the rate dropped dramatically from the artificial to the actual market rate. Good or badâ¦â¦.. I donât know, it depends what side of the fence you were on. What I am saying is you cannot maintain an artificial rate forever and at some point you have to let the market dictate, this is what is happening in the photography for stock business IMO. Jul 30 09 08:45 am Link John Harrington wrote: Christopher Hartman wrote: It's a different POV Christopher. And the conclusions you draw from it are...well....a bit creatively extreme. lol. Jul 30 09 09:05 am Link Patchouli Nyx wrote: John Harrington wrote: It's a different POV Christopher. And the conclusions you draw from it are...well....a bit creatively extreme. lol. A different POV? No kidding! because he presents a different POV are you suggesting I shouldn't provide a retort? He's calling him UNPROFESSIONAL! He can claim it to be detrimental, that is fine. But to accuse him of being unprofessional? GARBAGE! Jul 30 09 09:19 am Link Christopher Hartman wrote: Gosh, so quick to jump to an erroneous conclusion. No, it's unprofessional to just want to TF* with female models, it's simply really bad business practices to accept less than it costs to produce photography - especially for a multinational corporation. Christopher Hartman wrote: No. An MA does not equal a BA, does not equal an AA. So too, a certification does not equal an AA, however, if you dismiss so easily certifications, then it would stand to reason that you might have a similar disdain for degrees. Jul 30 09 10:31 am Link John Harrington wrote: Gosh John, I'm not sure how to respond to this. Jul 30 09 11:19 am Link Glad to see Mr. Harrington decided to chime in. I just happen to pretty much totally disagree with both his point of view and his conclusions. You strike me as the Ivory Tower type, who will make proclamations all day long about ethics and what is right and what should or should not be. Give us a fucking break. You are posting those opinions out of pure self-interest. That's fine, but don't lie about it. YOU have concluded that YOU could make more money if you didn't have competition from microstock. Since you can't make it go away, you'll resort to fancy language and invoke ethics and all that other crap. Too bad that many of us think you are full of shit. Jul 30 09 11:34 am Link
Post hidden on Jul 30, 2009 01:51 pm
Reason: not helpful Comments: Not cute. Not helpful. Not your place to make those types of calls. Jul 30 09 12:07 pm Link Lumigraphics wrote: +1 Jul 30 09 12:13 pm Link |