Eliza C wrote:
I have given you this:
http://thelingerieaddict.com/2011/07/10 … n-usa.html

Some of those images it is pretty evident some of the models are not 'industry standard'

That site proves NOTHING about their hiring practices. I clicked the link, read the article and nowhere on there is there any direct information regarding how those companies select models, just that they're made in the U.S.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I know of three in your first link that are using agency standard models.   The second link has a lot of companies are using stock photos.   They are NOT setting up photo shoots of models in their clothing.   Very quickly, many smaller companies and websites do not hire models at all.   They buy their photos from stock companies.   Those stock shots feature agency models.   Some are plus sized but most come from a agency.   This is in small part why catalog works pays well.   Your photos my be sold several times.   

However you didn't actually do a shoot in Nowhere, Tx with Texas Panties.   Texas Panties bought your photos for their website.   Little surprised you didn't know that.

There are clearly girls on there that are not industry standard.

But they were provided simply for the range of US companies I just happened to notice that some of the models were clearly not tall.

The issue we are discussing is the opportunity of fitting modelling. Those are just some exapmples of US companies. They will have a range of fitting models in various sizes.
You HAVE to use real models IN the workshop to design and manufacture the samples; and then the manufacturer will need to use fit models too. EVERY garment manufacturer uses fit models. They do NOT use industry size models and we can see from the cites Tiffany provided that they often get paid very high wages; down to me in the middle, down to the fit model who also is the receptionist; to the girls in the sweatshops on £80 a day. And they are needed in  massive range of shapes and sizes because they have to fit REAL women of all shapes and sizes. You can't use STOCK fit models ffs

Eliza C wrote:
Jesus they are just TWO that I lived with; not that I know of.
Your own citation produced the best known US fit model whjo is 5ft 6 ins.
If I could be arsed to look I'd find lots more.

You think it is just ONE company that makes size 18 clothes? What do you think every company that makes clothes makes the ACTUAL (not catwalk) garments on?

I have no idea about VS fit models; but I know that neither UK European or US companies use industry standard models for fit. How the FUCK can you make lingerie for big boobed women on girls as thin as a rake with no tits??????

The op is ONE INCH shorter than the most famous fit model in the USA. 5ft 6ins is WAY off what you think industry standard is.

You're missing the point because you choose to, probably because it doesn't fit in with your rose colored world view of anyone can do anything if only they follow the Eliza C rules of life.

I really hope that OP is smart enough to realize that VS isn't going to happen for her and that she takes the time to learn the lesson you clearly missed regarding the fact that there are different industry standards that pertain to each facet of modeling.

Tiffany_B wrote:
That site proves NOTHING about their hiring practices. I clicked the link, read the article and nowhere on there is there any direct information regarding how those companies select models, just that they're made in the U.S.

I didn't say there was. I just gave them as an example of US lingerie companies. They WILL all employ fit models; and some will want 5ft 8 ins and some will be happy with 5ft 3 IF the rest of your stats are exactly what they want. Some will want larger size models, some may even want maternity fit models!
BUT some of the pics the models I happened to notice are not that tall.

Tiffany_B wrote:
You're missing the point because you choose to, probably because it doesn't fit in with your rose colored world view of anyone can do anything if only they follow the Eliza C rules of life.

I really hope that OP is smart enough to realize that VS isn't going to happen for her and that she takes the time to learn the lesson you clearly missed regarding the fact that there are different industry standards that pertain to each facet of modeling.

Do you not understand that if you are making petite clothing for 5ft women you need a 5ft model? Do you not undertsand if you are making dresses for larger ladies you need a larger fit model? Do you not understand if you are making lingerie for big boobs you need a model with a big cup?

The average may be 5ft 7 ins and size 10 (UK) because that may be the average target market. But grament companies don't JUST produce lingerie or clothes in one size. That is ONLY for catwalk samples; a tiny tiny percentage of the garment industry it is just the one that is most visible here because it is what many aspire to. Back in the real world....they actually manufacture REAL clothes for women of all shapes and sizes to wear!!!!.

I am 5ft 6 ins and I have worked as a pro model. I know lots of other pro models in London; agency and non. Yes if you want to do editorial and runway you need the height and a very special look. But for ever one of those models there are HUNDREDS of girls like me. Just run of the mill journeymen that people like you and the general public don't know exist. Well ya do now. Put me down as some sort of exceptional freak if you want; but if you believe that you'll believe anything. IF Briana wants to be a fit model for a lingerie company it is possible. For her to be a VS runway or editorial model it isn't.

Briana Shauntre wrote:
But... You're like... 100% wrong. After reading about fitting llamas I'm quite interested. Also, I don't want the whole world drooling over me nor do I want wings, I don't even want to do runway. I'm interested in being in like their catalogues.

Fit llamas don't do catalog work. Sorry.

dave phoenix wrote:
Remember the original post?

My ultimate goal in life is to be a Victoria Secret model, I want it more than anything. I recently got hired at Victoria Secret also (not like that helps anything, just saying). Does anyone know how I can achieve this goal? I'll take all steps necessary.

Doesn't say anything about other companies. Just VS. Doesn't mention fit modeling at all. I think we all know what she means when she says VS model is her goal in life. Well, maybe not ALL of us. Seems there's at least one person in this thread who doesn't seem to understand.

It is important if someone has a dream to suggest a realistic way of achieving it.

Probably her ONLY chance of being a VS model is to do fit.
If that doesn't work out; then there are hundreds of other lingerie companies.

So it is entirely more relevant advice to Briana than the put downs from others.

It depends what she wants. She seems very pleased to have got a job in the store so I would imagine fit would be something that she wouldn't look down on as some others do.

There are some arrogant people in this thread who know sod all about fitting modelling in which Briana expressed an interest both here and by pm . I can tell you she is very pleased to be working for the company in ANY way. Just as I would have been at AP; I'd have loved just working in the store room. I happened to have made my living as a lingerie model for THE BEST company in the world quality and edge wise - so perhaps my testimony actually WOULD BE of interest to Briana and other ESPECIALLY because I am just a normal looking girl ; was aged 29 doing runway for the first time with the likes of Silvia Dimitrova, and am ONLY 5ft 6ins. I KNOW I am not the exception when it comes to fit. All you need are the exact measurements they are looking for ; usually several models in different sizes, and they all do it differently. I did a fashion show for the brand I loved since I was 16 years old and wore one of their corsets my first day of college. And because I DARED to dream at that age that I could; at 28 I applied for the fit job.

dave phoenix wrote:
Fit models don't do catalog work. Sorry.

Did you miss Tiffany's citations? Go back and think again. They DON'T do editiorial. they do do some runway, showroom and the odd bit of catalogue, parts shoots, and all the other odd bits and bobs when it isn't worth paying an agency model for. It is only scraps; but it's still nice especially when it is well paid. Read the cites she gave. I even did a couple of little cat shoots myself for AP; plus parts shoots like my fingers tying the ribbon on a gift box stuff like that. They don't get agency models in for stuff like that and odd bits missed for catalogues etc. They use the fit models so we do do some stuff.
But that isn't where the buzz is. The buzz comes working with fabulous designers; and then seeing the garments in the stores and knowing it is designed on my body; and of course getting paid every month.

dave phoenix wrote:

Fit models don't do catalog work. Sorry.

They probably could for a company like Cabela's.

Eliza C wrote:

There are clearly girls on there that are not industry standard.

But they were provided simply for the range of US companies I just happened to notice that some of the models were clearly not tall.

The issue we are discussing is the opportunity of fitting modelling. Those are just some exapmples of US companies. They will have a range of fitting models in various sizes.
You HAVE to use real models IN the workshop to design and manufacture the samples; and then the manufacturer will need to use fit models too. EVERY garment manufacturer uses fit models. They do NOT use industry size models and we can see from the cites Tiffany provided that they often get paid very high wages; down to me in the middle, down to the fit model who also is the receptionist; to the girls in the sweatshops on £80 a day. And they are needed in  massive range of shapes and sizes because they have to fit REAL women of all shapes and sizes. You can't use STOCK fit models ffs

Sigh... Do you know what catalog houses do?   In most cases the owners of stores and companies have no ideal who their models are because the work shown was done by a catalog house and they bought the images.   Most of the models used come from modelling agencies.   In fact most of these stores and websites buy all their merch from factories in Asia.    I can't speak to fit models but odds are its a job that hundreds of models are trying for.   I didn't say anything about stock fit models.   I am talking about the ads that show companies products, websites and or direct mail.   Most use agency standard models.

Eliza, I know you feel you have to be right even when people agree with you.   You start in with your book length replies but lets settle this now.   The OP is in America.   Odds are she won't be a fit model or a print model but its not up to any of us because we aren't her.   We can talk about what she can or can't do until we are blue in the face but she will need to audition.   The truth is even if she were a agency stat model it would be difficult and telling her or anyone it isn't is wrong.   Not that you did.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Sigh... Do you know what catalog houses do?   In most cases the owners of stores and companies have no ideal who their models are because the work shown was done by a catalog house and they bought the images.   Most of the models used come from modelling agencies.   In fact most of these stores and websites buy all their merch from factories in Asia.    I can't speak to fit models but odds are its a job that hundreds of models are trying for.   I didn't say anything about stock fit models.   I am talking about the ads that show companies products, websites and or direct mail.   Most use agency standard models.

Eliza, I know you feel you have to be right even when people agree with you.   You start in with your book length replies but lets settle this now.   The OP is in America.   Odds are she won't be a fit model or a print model but its not up to any of us because we aren't her.   We can talk about what she can or can't do until we are blue in the face but she will need to audition.   The truth is even if she were a agency stat model it would be difficult and telling her or anyone it isn't is wrong.   Not that you did.

What the hell are you taking about Tony ; I did cat shoots for AP and 90% of it was done by models like Silvia Dimitrova. But I did SOME. There isn't any way on earth someone like AP is going to trust anyone else but themselves to do the cat and website stuff and the campaigns are done out of house by the TOP ad agencies with the top models and celebs. They even have in house photographers for merchandise catalogues.  FFS it is beginning to really annot when you are telling ME a fit model for the best lingerie company in the world how they do things when it is rubbish!!! I have also been with other companies doing fit and so have my collegaues. Most have done a bit of catalogue work. Maybe SOME stores use the stock stuff you say but most do not. And certainly I do plenty of stuff for small designers - it is how I met my partner who I believe you have met while I was away. He is laughing at your suggestion of buying catalgue stock images of his clothing. He even shoots most of it rather than pay a photographer because he enjoys it; but he never skimps on models. And he DID have a photographer booked in the first place who turned up with models who looked crap in the clothes for his first collection. He needed models with shape as they are very tailored and were originally made on a size 10.


There is NOTHING stopping her from being a fit model. There is plenty stopping her from being a print model.
I HAVE talked to her - which if you actually READ some of my lengthy responses you would know.

She may not becomea VS fit model; but there are HUNDREDS of companies she could try that need fit models just in lingerie; of which I have no doubt she would be ok for some. Yes it is still competitive; and yes I got the job above agency models. But here is the thing: they KNOW they aren't going to keep agency mdoels for long as they set their sights on print. So they want people who are dedicated, and extremely knoweldegable about their products. In addition they want you generally to look like the business: you represent them every time you walk in and out of HQ; so walking in in thigh highs and a Mugler suit and 40's styled hair helps.

Everything in the cites given by Tiffany supports what I have been saying all along; including the pay, the length of time you end up working, and the type of odd other things you do like showroom, fit , catalogue bits and runway.

An Agency sta model - the kind you mean - 6ft; 32 20 32 is no WAY ON EARTH going to meaure up to be a fit model; except perhaps for the odd job for small runway collections. Actual clothes are made for real women on real women; by which I mean the target clients.

Look Tony I do NOT tell you how to do your job, Stop telling me about mine; it is getting ridiculous when it is evident you know nothing about it.

She has a chance; it is her only chance; and she may not end up doing it for VS but maybe; just maybe another nice lingerie company. It WILL be difficult; difficult to do anything in today's job markey and modelling of any kind is competitive. But it is POSSIBLE with fit.

Now please Tony; I realise that your idea of modelling revolves around agency models doing editorial and runway; and the kind of top models who do VS shows;  but realise they are a tiny percentage of working models. Please show some respect for we journeymen models who don't get any fame or glory; don't even want it; but nevethless are valued by those who employ us in the backroom of fashion of which you see only the photographic side; and only apparently a small part of that. This month I have done shoots for two websites; a regional magazine ad and a milliner; plus a live installation for Marco Sanges the Vogue/Agent Provocateur parfum campaign photographer. And I am just working part time now. And I can go back to AP any time I want; but can't commit because of my academic work. And I am just a normal journeyman model. Mostly fit but some catalogue and small mag work. My best freinds do a lot of alt fashion work; some are still fit models. We are none of us 'industry standard'.

I never did a stock photo shoot for fashion as far as I know; but yes I know some stores like Bridal people and some boutiques may do that.  But not usually if they are the designers or want to promote their own style rather than a stock image for an ad. I even work for tiny designers and milliners and boutiques and they use me; and friends and colleagues do similar.

In the thread we debated before there were at least a dozen models doing similar low level modelling and sometimes higher level print stuff but it pays and we were all far from industry standard in terms of fashion model agencies. But we work. I KNOW it is hard for you to get down to our level; or realise that we have no higher aspirations than just to work and do; or realise just how many of us there are for every top fashion editorial model; but it IS the truth.

Bold Sheep Photography wrote:

Damn....I have the measurements to be a VS model... Until you got to "firm."

\those measurements are very very wrong.

These are the correct ones

height 5 ft 9 to 5 ft 11 ( there are a few exceptions below 5 foot 9)
bust 32 to 35
waist 24- 26
Hip- 34-36

Tiffany_B wrote:

That site proves NOTHING about their hiring practices. I clicked the link, read the article and nowhere on there is there any direct information regarding how those companies select models, just that they're made in the U.S.

That's because they don't actually hire models.   Here's how it works.   You buy a template which comes with stock images of models in lingerie.   You then get stock images of your product.   Notice how most of the images don't show the models faces.   That's because they are also being used on other sites.   Hiring even non agency models is expensive and most companies are looking to save cash.   One of the companies near the bottom appears to be using a plus model.   That may be a model they hired.   However in general they are not setting up shoots with amateur models petite or not.

There isn't this wellspring of work for non agency standard models.   Fit modelling which I'm not all that familiar with but I did some research uses non agency models but my best guess is there are more then plenty to do the work.   Lets take Hanky Panky which is a big brand:   http://www.hankypanky.com/  They do fashion shows and use non agency models of every size but if you review their site its a stock shot with more images again without the models faces showing.

In HP's case with their shows they may pick models from the audience to model their things   Companies just aren't looking to hire amateur models.   They go to agencies to avoid flakes and bs.   They tend to always use standard size models.   I won't say every company but not enough won't to even talk about and that's why you don't see any information about 'working' for them as a model on their sites.   I don't want to continue this debate about how things work in the UK because I live in America and  so does the OP.   However those who think I'm full of it.    All the companies have a contact email.   Write them and ask about becoming a model.   Screw what I say or anybody else.   Find out what they say and how they hire models.

Chesterfield Hector wrote:
\those measurements are very very wrong.

These are the correct ones

height 5 ft 9 to 5 ft 11 ( there are a few exceptions below 5 foot 9)
bust 32 to 35
waist 24- 26
Hip- 34-36

Welcome to the debate. This isn't all directed at you; but some of the stats stuff is. You may want to read the other posts in it. The stats were from the VS site I believe. Here is one which says min height is 5ft 8ins. The stas I wouldn't argue with; they are hourglass - 34-24-34 rather than typical high fashion:
http://www.ehow.co.uk/list_7661579_vict … ments.html

The height stats you have quote are pretty much industry standard for top agency fashion models; but there are many notable exceptions and doing runway with six of the top London Agencies girls I noted I was probably the shortest but not by much and with good posture there wasn't a lot in it; the tallest was 5ft 9ins, and it isn't necessarily a hard yardstick. Not to mention all the well known models that fall short of it; and it is FAR more than a few notable exceptions.

Having said all that; Brianna is only 5ft 5 ins so there is no way she is going to do that kind of modelling; and in fact very few of the models who do satisfy those stats will. You have to have a very specific or unusual look facially too.

However; I have given her an option at a much lower level in fashion: the backroom model for fitting. You are in London. So take a look around the garment districts, HQs of the fashion companies, the side streets off Oxford St/Tottenham Court Rd, Brick Lane and Shoreditch etc. You see all the 5ft 5 ins girls walking in and out plastered with make up with pins stuck in them and chalk all over them to grab a starbucks at lunch or stood outside for a fag break? Well that is us. We don't do print , we don't get in many magazines, and nobody knows our names. We are there every day day in day out. Look for the chalk. Look IN the dozens of seamstress and wholesale garment manufacturers and see us being pulled about. Or watch us rushing to work making sure our make up is immmaculate on the tube and realise if we work for a top fashion company we have to look like we just walked out of a fashion mag whereas the high fashion model can turn up in a t shirt and jeans ad no make up. We are the models who work in house and stand in heels all day and we vary in size and shape. Some of us are outsize; some petite; some are tall some shorter.

This work pays well. Sometimes REALLY well. And it is often full time and you are payrolled paying PAYE. The citations given earlier in this thread by Tiffany supports everything I have said throughout if you take away her cherry picked half sentences.
EVERY garment manufacturer and designer and student fashion designer needs fit models. Sometimes they will be making catwalk stuff; but that is a tiny fraction of garments. Usually they are making garments for women of various sizes. And they are made ON our bodies. We are fitting models. And there is NO reason that the op, if she is dedicated, hard working, learns a bit about the designs, is communicative, well turned out, has a cool image, CANNOT be a fitting model for some lingerie company. It may not be VS; . But there are thousands of companies making garments; so it is a realistic option if she wants it. And it is for many other girls too. I see absolutely fantastic models on MM making not a cent. And I wonder why the hell I have London companies ringing me asking me to come back if the work is that competitive. The truth is good fit models are hard to come by because many models want the fame ticket; which is actually unattainable for most even WITH perfect stats height and look; or they have the chance and so leave the fit job to work for an agency. When you get a fit job if you are good they want to keep you. There is NO more secure job in modelling; and it is in fact the average kind of journeyman modelling job. Just because people don't see it; don't for a moment think we aren't there; or that we are 6ft and 00 too.

Now; for those wondering what the hell a fit model is I am happy to talk to more of you by pm. Or you can just carry on dreaming about being a high fashion model and never getting there and while you are trying not pay the bills; and listen to those here who THINK they know what a fit model does because they googled it today and read three lines that enforced their prejudices; and that my colleagues and I are figments of our own imaginations. Or you can start watching the castings and job ads in various papers whether trade papers or newspaper and website classifieds; and start earning a living where tf NEVER rears its ugly head.

I have no idea how tall VS fitting models are; or the sizes they use. But I do know that such fit work  while it may not make you famous can be a springboard to a good career; and in the meantime has job security few other models have. Here is one that was VS fit model for 8 years; but note also her education; which is why I said a fit model's best asset is her brain:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/anne-marie- … 1b/785/91b

EDIT. Ah; so I thought I'd check if anyone on MM does fit already for VS. Surprise surprise; VS BRA FIT MODEL:
FIVE FEET TWO INCHES:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/40079


SO IS ANYONE READY TO EAT THEIR FUCKING WORDS YET?
Of course the claim may not be substantiated; but if it is true then it is the ultimate negation of an argument isn't it?

As you didn't believe about some of my friends who did fit for other  lingerie brand either here is one of their IMDB entry which shows her height:
http://www.castingcallpro.com/uk/view.php?uid=269710
5ft 5 ins former fit model but mainly a fantastic actress.

This is an argument that nobody needed to have btw if they started to respect the professions and life experiences and testimony of people trying to give some positive practical advice to someone.

NOTE to Self: Google stylist and photographer tomorrow and start going in their forums and telling them all how to do their shit.

Briana Shauntre wrote:

Exactly why I decided to ignore them. They're not passing off any information I don't know. You people see requirements and run like scared animals. The thing is that I'm not stupid, I've done my research on VS and their agencies, I've already thought of going to my manager and I will... It's extremely hard, we get it but that doesn't mean I can't try. Not trying something is the quickest route to failing at acheiving your dreams, you guys can take that route but I won't.

So, you're saying that rather than not try, knowing the odds, its better to try, crash and burn, and provide hours of entertainment to a very willing audience?
Hmmm.. Not my style.  I know my limitations and try to live within them.

Eliza C wrote:
In the UK VS aren't that well known and those that do know them don't rate them.
If they are known it is because of the marketing. As is Macdonalds. Would you take a girl there to impress her or your wife for a special occasion? It may be good for 'the masses'.

WRONG. I adore my Victoria's Secret purchases, it's one of the few places I can find comfortable and well fitting lingerie. I haven't tried their panties as i'm not a fan of how low slung they look, but all the bras, pjs and accessories i have from them are great.

Obviously i'd love to be able to go for uber-luxurious lingerie but for me, Victoria's Secret does the job and makes my ta-tas look great. That's all i ask for.

Abi Hill wrote:
WRONG. I adore my Victoria's Secret purchases, it's one of the few places I can find comfortable and well fitting lingerie. I haven't tried their panties as i'm not a fan of how low slung they look, but all the bras, pjs and accessories i have from them are great.

Obviously i'd love to be able to go for uber-luxurious lingerie but for me, Victoria's Secret does the job and makes my ta-tas look great. That's all i ask for.

Good for you. We can't all like the same thing; and we are all entitled to our own opinion and at the end of the day our own taste.

All I am saying is that I prefer more exotic, creative, darker, and more exquisitely made lingerie. I sometimes have other agendas than simply making my ta - tas look good.
It is like some people prefer steak and chips to more exotic cuisine. Doesn't mean I don't like steak and chips sometimes either! But a chef is like a designer of food; and some designers have different aims to others in satisfying their customers and fans. I am not a designer; but I worked with an incredible design team every day and saw what goes into it; and I also have seen what goes or doesn't go into design and fitting considerations of other brands. Another poster pointed out the limitations of some sizing with VS. But for others if they like the stuff and find it fits well great! I was just pointing our to Briana steak and chips, as lovely as it is sometimes,  is not the only thing on the menu. x

T-D-L wrote:
lol, how did the conversation go from "How to model for VS" to "How to be a fit model"?  Seems kind of a stretch to suggest the latter would be a good consolation if you couldn't achieve the former.....

Why? the former she has very little chance; the latter there may be some chance with determination and hard work. The latter she can earn a decent living at and if not with VS work with other lingerie companies argubaly sometimes making a better product.

The problem has been the lack of ability for others to understand that thousands of us make a decent living as fit models for lingerie companies and other fashion designers. And sometimes; just sometimes; we get a little bit of the more glamorous side of things. So while Briana will highly unlikely ever be a VS model; she may one day be a fit model earning a living. This it appears to me is reasonable career advice IF she really wants to have an achievable possible aim; and the intense debate has been caused by the resistance of some to understand it is entirely possible for non fashion industry standard girls to make a decent living this way.

I wouldn't have dreamed that I could be an AP campaign model; but it was a hell of a consolation to me to do runway with Silvia Dimitrova; work with incredibly talented people, and see the product in campaigns and stores and know it was designed on my body. Furthermore; I am able to secure paid work in other areas of modelling based on my experience with AP (if she's good enough for them she's good enough for us).  As a result I never wanted for paid work; ever; in my pro modelling career and if I wanted it still would not. Pretty good consolation I'd say if my target had been to be an editorial fashion model; though it wasn't.

dave phoenix wrote:
holy moly. when one person writes 5 or more paragraphs per post, and half the posts on a page are by that same person - it starts to seem a little crazy.

right? or is it just me?

I have a half dozen emails from other models thanking me as they were unaware of what fit modelling is. What is bizarre to me is that the opinion of the professional fit model for the top lingerie brand in the UK if not the world quality and edge wise is not valued by some in the thread or seen as relevant to someone whose ambition is to be a lingerie model.

Eliza C wrote:
I have a half dozen emails from other models thanking me as they were unaware of what fit modelling is. What is bizarre to me is that the opinion of the professional fit model for the top lingerie brand in the UK if not the world quality and edge wise is not valued by some in the thread or seen as relevant to someone whose ambition is to be a lingerie model.

It's great that you were able to potentially help some other models and I'm sure that they value your opinion in the sense that you may be able to help them. However, that doesn't negate the fact that even when people agree with you, you find a way to argue with them because their advice wasn't the exact advice you would have given or it wasn't worded the same way you'd have said it. Believe it or not, being a model doesn't magically imbue you with all knowledge of modelling ever and there have been some very valid points made by non-models in this thread related to the exact topic i.e. the OP wanting to be a VS model. If that's changed and she now wants to be a lingerie model in general then that's her decision but it's not what this thread was originally intended to discuss.

DMesser Photography wrote:
I understand you want to try, and that is commendable.  It still doesn't solve the problem that you show only 1 photo in your port that is in the VS style.  If you want to show your VS style and ability, then you have to show it in lingerie.  Unless you have other pics you will show your manager.

It doesn't matter what she currently has in her port and truthfully she shouldn't show her manager anything (please tell me that you realize that could be construed as sexual harassment by some people, the act of coming into your workplace and showing images of yourself in lingerie to a superior, granted it would depend on the person and the company but why risk it when in this case it's not going to get her anywhere). As it's been pointed out several times in the thread VS (according to their own website) only hires agency girls. So if she wants to shoot with VS her only shot is to sign with an agency. And because of her height that isn't happening from an editorial standpoint. Eliza has pointed out that she could do fit modeling, which may be possible. However, she may need to sign with an agency that represents fit models.

Tiffany_B wrote:
It doesn't matter what she currently has in her port and truthfully she shouldn't show her manager anything (please tell me that you realize that could be construed as sexual harassment by some people, the act of coming into your workplace and showing images of yourself in lingerie to a superior, granted it would depend on the person and the company but why risk it when in this case it's not going to get her anywhere). As it's been pointed out several times in the thread VS (according to their own website) only hires agency girls. So if she wants to shoot with VS her only shot is to sign with an agency. And because of her height that isn't happening from an editorial standpoint. Eliza has pointed out that she could do fit modeling, which may be possible. However, she may need to sign with an agency that represents fit models.

That I would almost completely agree with you on. Her manager is not the person to show the images too for precisely the reasons you have suggested. For once we are in total agreement; and your summary is pretty excellent. xx

The only difference of opinion is that I don't neceesarily agree that she should only try fit modelling via an agency (though it won't do any harm to try) ; as they will likely put their favoured girls above you for castings. If I had gone to a fit agency I would not have got the job at AP. If it is true; the girl I cited here on MM has done fit for VS and she is 5ft 2 inches. She may have got that through an agency; but she may have got it through a casting; we don't know.  But; if a 5ft 2 inch girl can be a fit model for VS; then it shows she has a chance; as slim as it may be and as dedicated and as knowledgeable about the products as she will have to become, it is a small chance which is better than none.

Sekseeshotz wrote:

So, you're saying that rather than not try, knowing the odds, its better to try, crash and burn, and provide hours of entertainment to a very willing audience?
Hmmm.. Not my style.  I know my limitations and try to live within them.

Um, no -.- What I'm saying is that it's better to try period. That sucks, you wouldn't try JUST because there's odds against you. The people running for president have odds against them considering that there are other candidates but they still run because they know one of them will come out as president, if they didn't run because of such a small stupid factor such as "odds" we wouldn't be voting because there would only be one person running for president while other candidates run scared knowing that there is a possibility they won't win. You my friend, seem to be one of those candidates running scared.

Briana Shauntre wrote:
Dear Lord guys...

This.

Give it a rest already. Any point you didn't make in the last week this thread has been up doesn't really need to be made.

Eliza C wrote:
Why? the former she has very little chance; the latter there may be some chance with determination and hard work. The latter she can earn a decent living at and if not with VS work with other lingerie companies argubaly sometimes making a better product.

The problem has been the lack of ability for others to understand that thousands of us make a decent living as fit models for lingerie companies and other fashion designers. And sometimes; just sometimes; we get a little bit of the more glamorous side of things. So while Briana will highly unlikely ever be a VS model; she may one day be a fit model earning a living. This it appears to me is reasonable career advice IF she really wants to have an achievable possible aim; and the intense debate has been caused by the resistance of some to understand it is entirely possible for non fashion industry standard girls to make a decent living this way.

I wouldn't have dreamed that I could be an AP campaign model; but it was a hell of a consolation to me to do runway with Silvia Dimitrova; work with incredibly talented people, and see the product in campaigns and stores and know it was designed on my body. Furthermore; I am able to secure paid work in other areas of modelling based on my experience with AP (if she's good enough for them she's good enough for us).  As a result I never wanted for paid work; ever; in my pro modelling career and if I wanted it still would not. Pretty good consolation I'd say if my target had been to be an editorial fashion model; though it wasn't.

Eliza you tend to make threads like these about you.   You tell us all about your experience and now you name drop Silvia Dimitroya.   We get it.  You know your stuff.   Heck you've beaten us over the head to prove it.   No one has told you how to do your job.   We all want the OP to do well.   Her question about VS was answered long ago.   I have made and will continue to make two points.   No matter how pretty a girl is if she isn't a agency standard model it may be difficult to make money as a non nude model.   My second point is that large and small companies who hire models largely use agency models.   Primarily because they can insure their professionalism and reliability.   Do some smaller venues, stores , boutiques and designers use non agency or petite models, sure.   However those models they use will often be paid very little if at all.   This is a general comment and my guess is you'll dash in with some names of models you know and or that you modelled for some unknown designer years past who's name was Betsy Johnson.   

The key is your experiences are yours.   You live in the UK.   You do nudes and seem to a very large network of contacts.   That's great but once again this thread wasn't about you or me and I will now take a moment to apologize to the members.   In my desire to prove a point I have wasted your time.   I wish the OP the best of luck whatever her choices and Eliza I want to look through the books you've written in this thread alone.   To even some of our casual readers you are looking disturbed.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza you tend to make threads like these about you.   You tell us all about your experience and now you name drop Silvia Dimitroya.   We get it.  You know your stuff.   Heck you've beaten us over the head to prove it.   No one has told you how to do your job.   We all want the OP to do well.   Her question about VS was answered long ago.   I have made and will continue to make two points.   No matter how pretty a girl is if she isn't a agency standard model it may be difficult to make money as a non nude model.   My second point is that large and small companies who hire models largely use agency models.   Primarily because they can insure their professionalism and reliability.   Do some smaller venues, stores , boutiques and designers use non agency or petite models, sure.   However those models they use will often be paid very little if at all.   This is a general comment and my guess is you'll dash in with some names of models you know and or that you modelled for some unknown designer years past who's name was Betsy Johnson.   

The key is your experiences are yours.   You live in the UK.   You do nudes and seem to a very large network of contacts.   That's great but once again this thread wasn't about you or me and I will now take a moment to apologize to the members.   In my desire to prove a point I have wasted your time.   I wish the OP the best of luck whatever her choices and Eliza I want to look through the books you've written in this thread alone.   To even some of our casual readers you are looking disturbed.

And you DON'T contribute to these threads with your experiences to make yourself feel big and importnat telling models how to do their job when by your own admission you aren't going to ever pay them if you can help it?

I have said those things because it has become all to easy for twats to put down the idea of neing a fit model as though it is lowly. Perhaps it is to some. BUT I imagine that other models would be quite inspired by the fact we get a few nice moments such as working with famous models.
Do you HONESTLY think I am in the least bothered by the experience? I am a scientist and a geographer; this was a little pleasant detour for me and in the greater scheme of things all modelling to me is fairly unimportant. The design element is FAR more important to me. Which was another reason I enjoyed it.

But all through most of my academic career and working life I socialise and work with people who I have the utmost admiration and respect for. You may not be impressed by the fact I have worked with the top sceintists in the world in my field; but to me they are my heroes and people I look up to. BUT I know others would realise that having the opportunity of working with famous models would be nice.

Now. I have cited you a 5ft 2 " model on MM who appears to have been a fit model for VS. So that kind of negates the thrust of your argument. You know NOTHINg about fit - either the scale of people working in it, what we do, or why we get paid well. Other here are contemptuous about it and that is the only reason I have cited my runway excperience. Sharing one's field of experience for other is part of what I am doing here in forums. I made a living, had some memorable moments that I know other people would prize; and therefore want to say hey go for it it's cool.

It is on my profile because it gets me some paid fashion show work for small boutiques etc because equally they appear impressed with it. But I do NOT get that work from forums; and I do NOT hang around in forums sharing my experiences to show off. That is a pathetic and ad hominem attack of the kind I have come to expect from you when defeated in debate.

Now;' we have taken up enough of this thread with this; Tiffany has summed up the situation very well above and IF you had respected my insights it would never have gone on. But I know your game here is to put down models. And I simply will not have it when your experience is only the small bit of modelling work to which you aspire. Good luck with that you are a great photographer; but it shouldn't require you laying down your authoritah over models when you only know a small part of what we do. Because you and other narrow view photographers may think the op can't achieve a modelling career with VS doesn't mean her only option is to get her tits out. It isn't (and when it is models would be far better aiming at art institutions and artists as they ALL actually pay) . It will still be a hard ambition to get to even be a fit model; but it is possible. My experience shows EXACTLY that and that is why it is relevant. I do nudes true. BUT this has accounted for a tiny percentage of my paid work; but it has got me clothed work and art isntitution work. I have no issue with it so you know I am not a model who you think the only option is this and doesn't want to do it.

But no doubt you will continue to trawl these forums telling us how to do our job and that boutiques don't pay models and other such utter drivel. My last boutique job got me £400 worth of clothing and £200. I think the least I have ever got is £75 and that was because it was for charity. I even get sent clothing to wear it to events from a major design house half way across the planet. You don't know the half. Of course Agencies are responsible for reliability of models so you have some kind of insurance; but if you have a good reputation as a freelance you can mop up the vast amount of work that is there which simply can't afford agency girls. And that def applies to fit. I have told you before Tony; references. Pay more for agency girls if you want but lots of people don't find it necessary because they want your references and then they don't get problems.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza you tend to make threads like these about you.   You tell us all about your experience and now you name drop Silvia Dimitroya.   We get it.  You know your stuff.   Heck you've beaten us over the head to prove it.   No one has told you how to do your job.   We all want the OP to do well.   Her question about VS was answered long ago.   I have made and will continue to make two points.   No matter how pretty a girl is if she isn't a agency standard model it may be difficult to make money as a non nude model.   My second point is that large and small companies who hire models largely use agency models.   Primarily because they can insure their professionalism and reliability.   Do some smaller venues, stores , boutiques and designers use non agency or petite models, sure.   However those models they use will often be paid very little if at all.   This is a general comment and my guess is you'll dash in with some names of models you know and or that you modelled for some unknown designer years past who's name was Betsy Johnson.   

The key is your experiences are yours.   You live in the UK.   You do nudes and seem to a very large network of contacts.   That's great but once again this thread wasn't about you or me and I will now take a moment to apologize to the members.   In my desire to prove a point I have wasted your time.   I wish the OP the best of luck whatever her choices and Eliza I want to look through the books you've written in this thread alone.   To even some of our casual readers you are looking disturbed.

Best I can tell, Eliza's point is that giving the model a full time, or close, position is another way to deal with the reliability issue.  And that those positions DO exist, and that they aren't likely to go to agency models due to price, or exclusively to agency stats models because the products need to be suited to a wide variety of shapes and sizes.

Art of the nude wrote:

Best I can tell, Eliza's point is that giving the model a full time, or close, position is another way to deal with the reliability issue.  And that those positions DO exist, and that they aren't likely to go to agency models due to price, or exclusively to agency stats models because the products need to be suited to a wide variety of shapes and sizes.

I love you. Thank you x

Art of the nude wrote:

Best I can tell, Eliza's point is that giving the model a full time, or close, position is another way to deal with the reliability issue.  And that those positions DO exist, and that they aren't likely to go to agency models due to price, or exclusively to agency stats models because the products need to be suited to a wide variety of shapes and sizes.

true... but does that point have to be made 25 times in one thread?

Art of the nude wrote:
Best I can tell, Eliza's point is that giving the model a full time, or close, position is another way to deal with the reliability issue.  And that those positions DO exist, and that they aren't likely to go to agency models due to price, or exclusively to agency stats models because the products need to be suited to a wide variety of shapes and sizes.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
true... but does that point have to be made 25 times in one thread?

Sadly, it appears that it does.  And it still isn't getting through.

V Laroche wrote:
Holy fuck. Can we just go ahead and change the name of llama Mayhem to "Eliza C was an Agent Provocateur fit llama with Silvia Dimitroya and she worked very steadily wearing top quality underpants" already? Then we can make every single thread about how Eliza C was a fucking AP fit llama. Maybe Eliza C can start a goddamn advice column.

"Dear Eliza C,
I feel insecure in my relationship with my boyfriend although he assures me he loves me. Do you have any advice?

Thanks in advance,
Needy in Denver"



"Dear Needy in Denver,

Anybody who is 5"6' in London can find steady work as a fit llama, wearing top quality underpants with Silvia Dimitroya. Let me tell you all about it. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. For five pages.
Best of luck! Also, please feel free to come back any time and ask me more questions about the top quality underpants I wore with Silvia Dimitroya when I was working steadily as a fit llama in London.

Eliza C
Fit llama for Agent Provacateur"

Got anything positive to contribute for the op other than personal attack on me?

That is against the rules here.

And I was debating this with people who continually say remember that it is NOT possible to earn a living as a llama if you are under 5ft 9ins unless one lobs out their boobs. So while they keep repeating that; I shall keep repeating my experience and those of my colleagues. You don't have to read what I have to say.

Of course it may not be of interest to you; but I can tell you it is most certainly of interest to some other people; and it isn't a crime to want to help and encourage people.
I am now up to 9 emails asking about fit from interested parties and saying they didn't know about it. So it appears people do want to know more about it how it works what it pays who and how to apply for the positions etc. despite the fact that I have already put much of it in this thread people still want to hear more. If you don't; don't read the responses. What the hell have I done to piss you off?

Eliza C wrote:
Got anything positive to contribute for the op other than personal attack on me?

That is against the rules here.

And I was debating this with people who continually say remember that it is NOT possible to earn a living as a model if you are under 5ft 9ins unless one lobs out their boobs. So while they keep repeating that; I shall keep repeating my experience and those of my colleagues. You don't have to read what I have to say.

Of course it may not be of interest to you; but I can tell you it is most certainly of interest to some other people; and it isn't a crime to want to help and encourage people.

Please, tell us more. I think that maybe somebody here didn't hear you the first twenty times. Eliza, have you ever been a fit model? Do you think that fit models can find steady work? How tall do you have to be to be a fit model? Do you have to be agency standard? Hey Eliza, who is better quality, AP or VS?????????? PLEASE SHARE YOUR INFINITE WISDOM.