photoimager wrote:

Youtube videos are not evidence of what you posted so are invalid examples.
- you do not know if it was staged
- no evidence of sample size / method
- ones that resulted in injury and death would not be permitted on Youtube etc, therefore distinctly skewing any sample
- the 'good guys' would not be in a position to post a video if they were on the receiving end

I could go on.

The few people who have indicated that where they are deadly non-human predators roam freely, you people I understand why you would carry a weapon and it is likely to be something more than a hand gun.

1) You obviously didn't watch the videos. Two were news reports w/ surveillance footage. The other was recorded by 3rd party overlooking a block party. There was no staging going on there.

2) You didn't ask about death or injury. You asked: "I see that none of the 'carriers' are yet to explain what they would do if the gang had more than one gun".
I provided an answer to that question. The answer being that people scatter when guns are drawn and used the videos to show it happening. If that wasn't a good enough answer, then how about I say that it doesn't matter how many of the thugs have weapons. I much rather like my chances of being able to fight back instead of just taking a bullet with no means of defense.
YMMV.

3) My "invalid examples" are more than you have offed to the contrary.
Instead of attacking my links, how about providing something that shows people sticking around when weapons are displayed.

fullmetalphotographer wrote:
Here is where I think you miss the point. I am not anti gun I have fired guns since I was a kid. I have no issue with owning a gun. I have no issue concealed weapons permits. I have an issue with bringing a gun to a location photo shoot.

You say it is a judgement call, well my judgement and I am talking from experience unless you had some serious combat training you have no business bringing a gun onto a photo location shoot. Even if you did have that training you should be upfront with everyone that you are bringing a firearm to work.

I have been shootouts I have been crimes scenes and I have seen people die from gunshot wounds. I am not anti gun but I am a gun realist. I fully agree with the concept of guns don't kill people kill people. So if are not a trained expert then you have no right to endanger innocent blood.

Lets put it this way are you going to say to me that if you were involved in a firefight on a location that you are 100% sure that their will be no misses that you hit only what you are aiming at? If the answer is no then you as dangerous as a bad guy no matter your motivation or judgement. To put it simply gun ownership is not just a right but a responsibility.

I have seen a lot of people kill people with guns.

If you have a concealed weapons permit; if you are out hunting with a long gun; if you are a law enforcement officer YOU have the responsibility to be proficient with your firearm.

I have been hunting when some ass unloads a magazine on a running deer.  He has no idea where the mallard he is shooting or what is in the flight path of the projectiles.

My father and I have both been face down in a swamp while some ass, that I will no longer hunt with, unloaded on a bird he couldn't even see.  He also shot an owl to see what it was.  And a snowshoe hare out of season before identifying it as a hare instead of a rabbit.  He, is in fact, the main reason I have not hunted in years.  My dad stopped hunting because he died. 

I have had cops berate me for having a carry permit because I was untrained.  They didn't know that I was trained and I would bet them their badge I could out shoot them on the range.  No takers.

What started me on this?  Oh yeah.  "Lets put it this way are you going to say to me that if you were involved in a firefight on a location that you are 100% sure that their will be no misses that you hit only what you are aiming at?"

Remember the african immigrant in NYC that got killed by cops for carrying a cell phone?  How many shots did they take?  50? 100?  and hit him 4 or 5 times?   A cop near here shot his partners police dog accidentally.   I wholeheartedly agree that every shot should hits it mark.  The most shots anybody should ever fire at someone is two.  The minimum number of shots is two and the number of hits should be two.   But if those men and women who put their lives on the line everyday (I do too, but since I don't carry a badge, it doesn't matter- remember that when you speed by people working along the road) can't hit the damn target, why should you expect that everyone else should be sure there are "no misses".

Fact is, it isn't the shooting.  It is the thought of the shooting that protects you.  (see my previous post)   I also witnessed a Florida Sheriff Deputy put his hand on his gun when he order two teenagers to not fight and they didn't separate.  I didn't like what the deputy did, but they stopped fighting.

I think I will stop visiting this post.  Has the OP even checked in in the last four pages.

Hunter Wald wrote:
I think I will stop visiting this post.  Has the OP even checked in in the last four pages.

I say it's a good thread with plenty of life left and you just made a good contribution.

OP participation is not that important in this case.

Cuica Cafezinho wrote:
You thought about shooting a person in the back because the punk on a bike whizzed by and took your coat. You thought about shooting a person in the back because they took your coat.

That was a joke which is why I added the "LOL" which was omitted by your quoting me. I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was joking. That would be crazy and I would never do that. It would need to be the most dire and life-threatening circumstances to make me even pull my gun out (with safety on besides). I come from a military family and we've all been trained in use and safety. I'm pacific by nature, and I hope that the thief enjoys my ONLY heavy winter coat while I freeze this winter.

DP_Photography wrote:
Once you make the decision to carry, make sure that you invest in good quality gear.  I'd hate to see your weapon fall out of its holster when you squat or lie down to get that difficult shot.  That could really change the mood of a photoshoot.

For those newer to guns who want to carry as much as possible, a subcompact .38 Special revolver or .380 semi-auto in a pocket holster is a good way to go. There are also some 9mm and .40 S&W options that approach pocket size. Arming each time you go out becomes as instinctive as taking keys, phone, and wallet.

And for the photographer, a pocket-carried gun will hardly be noticed while bending and otherwise contorting, and the chance of others getting a glimpse is nil.

C R A W F O R D wrote:
Im all for legal conceled carry. (with proper training)
an armed society tends to be a polite society.

But I must ask, why would you announce to everyone in the world that you're packing? 

You dont use a gun to scare people. You use a gun for a life or death situation, one that has no other alternative.

+100

It seems there a folks in this thread that sound more like Wyatt Earp, and some who think you can just bandy about your weapon when deemed appropriate to the carrier.

DP_Photography wrote:
I'm a former Law Enforcement Officer and I always carry a gun for defense.  The only time I'm not carrying is when I'm in a place where it's prohibited.

I have been carrying on every photoshoot I've done for the past several years with no issues.  However, since I am well trained (police and military), and have been carrying a weapon for more than half my life, I would be surprised if it WERE an issue.  Additionally, none of my models were aware that I was carrying.  Concealed means concealed.

Not everyone should carry a gun for protection.  You should feel very comfortable with guns before deciding to carry one.  You should get as much training as you can reasonably afford.  Not just a "concealed carry class" and thats it.  Go to the range often.  Practice, practice, practice.  Then practice some more.

Once you make the decision to carry, make sure that you invest in good quality gear.  I'd hate to see your weapon fall out of its holster when you squat or lie down to get that difficult shot.  That could really change the mood of a photoshoot.

I posted some tips directly above your post for people who do not carry a gun.  As a country boy, I learned how to shoot at a young age, and as a young man, I also went through law enforcement training, but decided not to proceed with a career in that field.  So I greatly appreciate what you said! 

The fact that you've not had to pull your weapon out is very telling, as it is rare that you would ever need to.  I guess one could say that when you "need it" ... you really need it!  However, I'm one who looks for avoid and/or to diffuse potentially violent situations.  In all the years I've been shooting, I've never felt that my life was in danger in any photography related situation, even when a Bridezilla was trying to get some guys to come after me with baseball bats.  Talking got me out of that one. 

Photographers and models should not have to pack a weapon!  If you do, be sure you are comfortable with using it!

C R A W F O R D wrote:
Im all for legal conceled carry. (with proper training)
an armed society tends to be a polite society.

But I must ask, why would you announce to everyone in the world that you're packing? 

You dont use a gun to scare people. You use a gun for a life or death situation, one that has no other alternative.

But I must ask, why would you announce to everyone in the world that you're packing? 

Maybe to give a person a choice is it safe to work and be around you.

Polite well armed societies:
Feudal Japan
Afghanistan
Iraq
Modern Russia
Nuevo Laredo, Mexico
To name a few.

Small Fruit Pits wrote:
+100

It seems there a folks in this thread that sound more like Wyatt Earp, and some who think you can just bandy about your weapon when deemed appropriate to the carrier.

I think it's very important to consider the consequences of what could happen when packing a gun, AND consider alternatives such as the non violent tips that I gave earlier.   Protection of your person or property does not mean you must have a violent confrontation.  Even police look for alternatives to having to use their guns.

The tips once again; 

Patrick Walberg wrote:
It is important to stay low key, as the idea is to bring as little attention to yourself as possible while out on locations shooting.  Here are some tips that I go by; 

Dress in clothing that is inconspicuous and appropriate for the surroundings.  Don't bring out all your gear into the open, especially if it is expensive name brand stuff.  If you've got a lot of expensive gear, and could not afford to replace it...  if it got lost, destroyed or stolen, then buy insurance for it! 

Bring someone along who is an assistant (security) for both you and the model by keeping an eye on things while you are busy working.  Move fast, don't stay in one area for long.  Keep a cellphone "on" just leave it on silent mode or vibrate.  It's not meant for you to answer, but to have incase of having to quickly make an emergency call.  Lastly, don't be too attached to your gear.  After all, it can be replaced, but you can't!   I don't carry a gun.  Never felt my life was in danger either.

Thomas Sellberg wrote:
You are in Florida, get a carry permit and a gun, take all the classes you can to learn to use it and carry it with you. The Florida carry permit is accepted in the majority of the country, so on the up side you pretty much are covered anywhere in the lower states. The idea is not to use the gun, but have it so if you need it you don't have to worry about your life or that of the people you are with. 9 times out of 10 in a situation like that an armed individual can talk their way out with out an issue because you have the confidence to do so, not because you are pointing a gun, most of the time the gun never comes into play at all.

There's your answer...

Limperis Portraits wrote:
No, not that kind of protection!

I was on the end of a pier just before sunrise, shooting with my 5d mark III, a model, and her escort. I noticed a group of guys eyeing what we were doing. Now I've been on shoots where I have to ignore the curious onlookers, but I don't think this group was interested in what we were doing.

They kept whispering amongst themselves, and I would catch them staring a my equipment. As we moved closer to the shore to exit the pier they moved closer to us. Out of no where a 2 police officers wandered up, and this group quickly move away from us back to the end of the pier.

I am wondering would it be legal to carry mace? I know the best advice would be not to get in this situation. How do photographers protect themselves? Please advise

I bring my wife... nuff said..

fullmetalphotographer wrote:

But I must ask, why would you announce to everyone in the world that you're packing? 

Maybe to give a person a choice is it safe to work and be around you.

Polite well armed societies:
Feudal Japan
Afghanistan
Iraq
Modern Russia
Nuevo Laredo, Mexico
To name a few.

Feudal Japan - really?
Afghanistan and Iraq - war zones and unstable governments.
Mexico - drug war, strict gun control and unstable government.

That old adage might not always ring true but it is more often than not.
Maybe if Mexico would allow their citizens to shoot back at the cartels and the corrupt army and cops... they might not be one of the most dangerous countries in the world.
US boarder states are amongst the safest in the country, with the lowest ranking going to California at 14th safest. New Mexico ranks top at 9th safest.
And it's estimated that 34% of the violent crimes in the four border states comes directly from Mexico (illegal immigration, cartels,etc.).

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html

Limperis Portraits wrote:
No, not that kind of protection!

I was on the end of a pier just before sunrise, shooting with my 5d mark III, a model, and her escort. I noticed a group of guys eyeing what we were doing. Now I've been on shoots where I have to ignore the curious onlookers, but I don't think this group was interested in what we were doing.

They kept whispering amongst themselves, and I would catch them staring a my equipment. As we moved closer to the shore to exit the pier they moved closer to us. Out of no where a 2 police officers wandered up, and this group quickly move away from us back to the end of the pier.

I am wondering would it be legal to carry mace? I know the best advice would be not to get in this situation. How do photographers protect themselves? Please advise

Not even once is carrying a gun mentioned by the OP!  The OP asked about a can of mace, not what gun to pack!  This thread cracks me up!  He saw what allegedly appeared like a group of people that looked to him like they were eyeing his gear as they came closer, but they moved out when the police showed up.  This really means very little because we can only assume the unknown people were up to no good ... but we really can't verify that just based on their actions.

Can anyone tell me, how many photographers here have ever been robbed at gun point.  I know of exactly one who was robbed by an "escort" at gun point, and he is no longer on this site to comment.  So what is this "need" for protection about?  In 30 years of shooting on locations and working in retail environments, I have NEVER felt that I needed a gun for protection.  Not once!   Do the things I've mentioned, and weapons or mace wont be necessary.

Sure, it's one of those things that when you need it, you really do need it, but not often does that happen to anyone.  Police officers can go years without even pulling out their gun, and certainly it's rare that they actually have to shoot someone.

JC Strick wrote:
Feudal Japan - really?
Afghanistan and Iraq - war zones and unstable governments.
Mexico - drug war, strict gun control and unstable government.

That old adage might not always ring true but it is more often than not.
Maybe if Mexico would allow their citizens to shoot back at the cartels and the corrupt army and cops... they might not be one of the most dangerous countries in the world.
US boarder states are amongst the safest in the country, with the lowest ranking going to California at 14th safest. New Mexico ranks top at 9th safest.
And it's estimated that 34% of the violent crimes in the four border states comes directly from Mexico (illegal immigration, cartels,etc.).

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html

Afghanistan and Iraq are a very polite peoples but can be deadly if a custom or if in their view a heresy has been committed. Afghan society has a long history of being polite and deadly that goes back thousands of years.

Feudal Japan was extremely polite with a strict code of honor, and extremely well armed and very deadly with many internal wars.

I threw Nuevo Laredo, Mexico in because they had one my favorite shoots outs in which the cartels were using rocket launchers. It was like a scene from Desperado.

Look guns don't kill people, people kill people.Politeness does not equal safety. If you got rid of guns people will find something else to do the job. The big issue here is not gun ownership. The issue is not whether a person has the right to have a concealed weapon.

The issue is does a person with a gun no matter how pure their heart maybe, to bring a gun on location of a photo shoot. When they have had no formal training in combat shooting. I do not care what the state law says. If you have no formal combat training you are a danger to everyone around you when you bring a gun to location no matter what your reasoning is. Combat training does not just teach how to shoot the bad guy but when not to discharge a firearm.

Paper targets and gun safety classes are not the same thing. Like I said, I am not against gun ownership, I am against putting people at risk because someone has a device that is designed to end life and do not have the training to properly use it.

fullmetalphotographer wrote:
Afghanistan and Iraq are a very polite peoples but can be deadly if a custom or if in their view a heresy has been committed. Afghan society has a long history of being polite and deadly that goes back thousands of years.

Feudal Japan was extremely polite with a strict code of honor, and extremely well armed and very deadly with many internal wars.

I threw Nuevo Laredo, Mexico in because they had one my favorite shoots outs in which the cartels were using rocket launchers. It was like a scene from Desperado.

Look guns don't kill people, people kill people.Politeness does not equal safety. If you got rid of guns people will find something else to do the job. The big issue here is not gun ownership. The issue is not whether a person has the right to have a concealed weapon.

The issue is does a person with a gun no matter how pure their heart maybe, to bring a gun on location of a photo shoot. When they have had no formal training in combat shooting. I do not care what the state law says. If you have no formal combat training you are a danger to everyone around you when you bring a gun to location no matter what your reasoning is. Combat training does not just teach how to shoot the bad guy but when not to discharge a firearm.

Paper targets and gun safety classes are not the same thing. Like I said, I am not against gun ownership, I am against putting people at risk because someone has a device that is designed to end life and do not have the training to properly use it.

Two questions for ya.

Who here has advocated carrying any weapon without proper training?

How many permitted/licensed gun carriers have shot innocent bystanders?

Seems that if your fear were true, we would see these accidental shootings daily.
There are millions of citizens carrying guns in this country everyday.
There are almost a million permitted/licensed in TN, GA and FL alone. There are 46 other states that offer citizens permitted, licensed and/or unlicensed carry.

The following stats on accidental deaths were released in 2005 by the National Safety Council .

Auto Accidents - 1 in 228
Reaction to Medication - 1 in 541
Hanging/Suffocating Yourself - 1 in 576
Drowning 1 in 1081
Choking on non food objects - 1 in 1267
House Fire 1 in 1471
Falling From Furniture - 1 in 4745
ATV Accident - 1 in 4800
Accidental gunshot - 1 in 4888


Are you as adamant about people using coffee tables as step stools as you are with responsible and legal gun carrying?

JC Strick wrote:

Two questions for ya.

Who here has advocated carrying any weapon without proper training?

How many permitted/licensed gun carriers have shot innocent bystanders?

Seems that if your fear were true, we would see these accidental shootings daily.
There are millions of citizens carrying guns in this country everyday.
There are almost a million permitted/licensed in TN, GA and FL alone. There are 46 other states that offer citizens permitted, licensed and/or unlicensed carry.

The following stats on accidental deaths were released in 2005 by the National Safety Council .

Auto Accidents - 1 in 228
Reaction to Medication - 1 in 541
Hanging/Suffocating Yourself - 1 in 576
Drowning 1 in 1081
Choking on non food objects - 1 in 1267
House Fire 1 in 1471
Falling From Furniture - 1 in 4745
ATV Accident - 1 in 4800
Accidental gunshot - 1 in 4888

I have photographed all of the things you have mention except furniture, choking and meds.
And in the course of my work I looked down a barrel of a gun more than once. I have seen the worst case scenarios. Here is the way I look at I really do not care what the numbers say. My view is simple on this give one reason why you need to take a gun to a photo location because you are scared there might be a bad guy. Can you say one is wrong thing with requiring some has the same level of training of a police officer or military personal if they are bring a gun into a group of people on a location.

I am not saying you can't own a gun, I am not saying you can't get a conceal permit. I am saying should have same level training and some of the same requirements as police and military personal if you want that gun in a public area. I do not care what the state law is if you bring a gun to a set I am in charge of and I decide you are not safe you can take your gun home and come back or just stay at home you choice.

Another possible solution to this is Chris Rocks where there is no gun control but bullets cost $5,000 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II

fullmetalphotographer wrote:
I have photographed all of the things you have mention except furniture, choking and meds.
And in the course of my work I looked down a barrel of a gun more than once. I have seen the worst case scenarios. Here is the way I look at I really do not care what the numbers say. My view is simple on this give one reason why you need to take a gun to a photo location because you are scared there might be a bad guy. Can you say one is wrong thing with requiring some has the same level of training of a police officer or military personal if they are bring a gun into a group of people on a location.

I am not saying you can't own a gun, I am not saying you can't get a conceal permit. I am saying should have same level training and some of the same requirements as police and military personal if you want that gun in a public area. I do not care what the state law is if you bring a gun to a set I am in charge of and I decide you are not safe you can take your gun home and come back or just stay at home you choice.

Another possible solution to this is Chris Rocks where there is no gun control but bullets cost $5,000 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II

How many of those gun barrels were held by law abiding gun carriers?

Going back to the "lack of training" comment.
Who is advocating carrying any weapon without training?

I'm not sure why you're making the comparison to police training. You do realize that most departments will only require a couple hours of gun training in POST and 50 rounds "in the black" to qualify? Most departments will require 50 rounds to re-qualify yearly/biyearly.
That's why there are a slue of officer involved accidental shootings while there are very few, if any, accidental shootings committed by armed citizens. And to put that into perspective, there are millions more armed citizens than cops.
There are less than one million full time local,state and federal law enforcement offers nationwide. About the same amount of licensed/permitted armed citizens in TN,GA and FL alone.
See the disgruntled employee shooting in NYC a few months back. All injured bystanders were shot by the cops.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/n … index.html

Additionally, many states require citizens to undergo some sort of training (often hours of training) and FBI background checks to obtain a carry permit/license.

Maybe we should require cops to get the same level of training as the typical armed citizen has.

Far as why goes;
It's a personal choice. Shit happens to good people everywhere and some people have the mentality to not be a victim or to die by the hands of others.

As far as why carry on a shoot goes;
It's a personal choice that is fueled by the addition of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. All of that easy cash makes for a very tempting target. Especially when coupled with the often deserted or otherwise less-than desirable locations.
There is no guarantee that simply giving up your livelihood (insured or not, doesn't matter) will get you out of the situation unharmed or alive.

It's a personal choice to take the chance that the criminals (often armed) will simply take your stuff and leave you unharmed.

It''s a personal choice to put your chances in your own hands to protect and defend yourself.

I see no reason to degrade anyone for their own personal choices on self defense.
The fears are simply statistically not true.

Harold Rose wrote:

Arm yourself and you are asking for trouble... Diplomacy is  sometimes as easy as   asking names,,   asking to help..   taking a picture of  the crowd... a few pictures will make many problems become bashful..

They may enjoy the photos of themselves after they steal your camera.

Robert Beilke wrote:
I thought that was what I said haha..you don't draw and shoot unless the situation calls for it.  And you don't draw unless you shoot.  Controlled escalation is fine, just don't do it with a gun.  There's a reason police officers carry mace, tasers, and then guns as a last resort.  What happens when the cops show up, and the guy claims you're a psycho who pulled out his gun for no reason and threatened him, or that you were the one trying to commit armed robbery on him through assault with a deadly weapon?  All they really know for sure is that you have a gun, which corroborates the bad guy's story.  The rest is he said she said.

Why am I reading this?

Katherine Zamora wrote:
Why am I reading this?

You woke up a long dead Zombie thread just to ask "why?" 

From my earlier comments, you can tell I am not a gun advocate.

Katherine Zamora wrote:

Why am I reading this?

The bigger question is why you necrobumped an 11 year old thread.

Jason McKendricks wrote:
necrobumped

LOL