Escalante wrote:
http://jezebel.com/5966117/post-subway- … socialflow

gasp! How dare he! OMIGOD!

Steven Bodo wrote:
Instead, he decided to blind the train operator with his flash.  Mh. But he managed to get a perfectly composed shot.

You do understand that the photographer wasn't inches from the train operator right?  The operator wouldn't have been blinded by the flash from the distances shown in the pictures, especially since he said that he had the flash at 1/64th power from when he was top side.

hbutz New York wrote:

Entirely different.  The photographer in Vietnam had no hope of saving the victim.  In an interview he later regrets taking the image and has difficulty living with himself.  War photos have merit to show the true horrors of war and have been used in the past to bring about peace and the end of the war.

The photographer in the subway just appears to be a dick.

If I recall, the guy getting his brains blown out wasn't a victim. He'd murdered a family, was captured and that capture lead to this famous photograph. There's also actual film on this (motion) where you can see it happening.

o k u t a k e wrote:

22 seconds is more than enough time to think and then help if you're close enough. The photographer said he was 150ft away when the guy fell in. If he dropped his gear and just ran he may have been able to help or get the attention of someone closer. That would mean he would have had to make his decision in the first couple seconds when there was no train. I can't really blame the guy for not saving a life, but having popped off 49 shots before the guy got hit and not being as quick thinking probably doesn't weigh to well on his conscience.

This....but at least Try? Try and place the camera down and help out mankind.

Mi Do wrote:
People get hit by trains often enough that there needs to be simple PSA signs up saying "If you slip on the tracks, here's what you should do." Obviously, that is much kinder than saying "If you get shoved on the tracks by a bum...."

Also... this is how you stop a train:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdlupO1bkHA

Anyway... this is why I don't take the subway (Plus the smell of piss, the tourists, and the fact I can get exercise by cycling/walking)






(really... we need signs up to remind/tell people how to respond/react when this shit happens)

The two images where the men push the women on the tracks, I'd beat them so fucking bad, they'd arrest me. The other one with the woman walking onto the tracks. Where was her damn mind at?

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
since this seems to happen often enough, isn't there some way to prevent people from falling from the platform onto the track?

like a vertical cattle guard or fence or something?

I haven't rode on the BART subway here in sometime now. But when I'd moved here for school, it was a daily commute. I never stood my ass on that yellow line because in the back of my mind, the San Francisco nuts might push you onto the tracks.

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
Assuming the photographer couldn't do anything to help, that the whole incident happened very quickly and taking the photo was a natural reaction is something worthy of debate.

Publishing the photo is entirely different and in my opinion inexcusable. The NY Post had plenty of time to think about it.

And, all the sites republishing the photo while asking if it was ethical for the NY Post to publish it are no better. They're also trying to cash-in on the image but don't want to take any blame or responsibility for republishing it.

A lack of ethics at another one of Murdoch's tabloids is hardly surprising but it's very disappointing seeing so many other publishers sink to that level.

True, true

Escalante wrote:
http://jezebel.com/5966117/post-subway- … socialflow

If you follow all the links through, you'll see they reference an MM profile...

Paramour Productions wrote:

If you follow all the links through, you'll see they reference an MM profile...

..whoa, ...that's awkward

studio36uk wrote:

-Ira wrote:

studio36uk wrote:
Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.

As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.

Studio36

** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.

There is space on the NYC Subway for this to happen, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyreg … .html?_r=0

That man is a hero.

I would hope that if I were in the same situation I would be brave enough to do whatever I could to help.  Won't know unless I am there.

Ah, YES!!! I just watched some additional video of the NYC incident [that I had not seen before my first post] and the guy [victim] WAS sitting in a trench [similar to those on the London Underground's system but maybe not as deep] but stood up to try and get back on the platform. Sadly, he might be alive today if he had just stayed where he was, laid down flat, and let the train safely roll over him.

Screenshot from that news video clip


There's a lesson here for all the strap-hangers in BOTH cities.

Studio36

Truth to the above. Anyone who has traveled the New York Subway system & bothered to look knows there is a dip between the rails.  Had the man laid down between the rails, the train would have not hurt him.

o k u t a k e wrote:
As a photojournalist your first instinct is to take a photo. There are photos that would have been missed if the photographer helped instead that have guided public opinion and changed the world. I'm not saying what happened is right, but perhaps this photo will help in the cause to put up barriers that will stop other subway accidents that annually occur here in NYC. So perhaps the photographer didn't do as much as he could for one guy, but he may save more lives on the whole.

...Of course he's gotta live with it.


Without the Exif, you can't see exactly how far away he was, but you can see that he was at the limits of his flash so, 10ft-15ft? Depends on what flash he's using. The trains come pretty fast, but if the guy had enough time to fall in and get his arms back up on the platform, the photographer should have had enough time to run over and give the guy a helping hand if he was thinking fast enough. Sometimes when you're head in stuck behind a camera you can't see that a train is coming until it's too late.

+1000

Totally agree with you

Olson Images wrote:
Many years ago I lived in Chicago. On one Sunday morning in the winter, I was on an elevated platform in "the loop" waiting to transfer trains. As I saw my train begin to approach, I took half a step forward. The next thing I knew, I felt two hands on my back pushing me off the platform and onto the track.

Picking myself up, my first instinct believe it or not was to look back onto the platform to see who had pushed me. It was a woman wearing a full-length fur coat and she was walking away. I hadn't even noticed her before. I shouted at her. THEN I started waving my arms frantically to get the train to stop. Obviously, the train was able to screech to a halt.

The engineer got out and said "what the fuck are you doing down there?"

I told him that I had been pushed and to call the police. As he pulled me up, he told me to go to the ticket booth. I went to the ticket booth (the train left the station) and the guy working there said "I didn't see anything, there are payphones over there... call the police yourself."

I still find it hard to believe. Nobody tried to stop this woman from walking away (there weren't a lot of people, but there were some). The train's engineer should have kept the train in the station (anyone who got on was a potential witness). and the token booth clerk should've called the police.

To this day, when I see trains approaching now, I take a step BACK.

WOW! Glad you're still here. Thanks for sharing your story.

Shot By Adam wrote:

While none of us were actually there, we also have an ounce of common sense and instinct as to what probably happened. Sorry, but this guy's story of him trying to flash his camera sounds like an excuse for taking the photo rather than an actual real reason for doing so. Sorry, but I think the photographer is as full-of-shit as they come. Did you watch the subsequent video the NYP put out, interviewing him? He actually said, "I wanted to help the man but I couldn't figure out how to help."

What a fucking idiot. Here's a thought for you asshat, how about you drop your camera gear. Just drop it and let it hit the concrete. Your insurance will pay for it (but even if not, your camera is not more important than a human's life). Now go run and help save this guys' life in any way that you can. Even if you couldn't do it, at least you could try. Now one of his excuses is that he wasn't strong enough to do it anyway. Strike 2 in your idiot's bag of excuses. I don't buy that for a second either.

No, the truth here is that this moron decided to take pictures instead of helping a fellow human being. Then, after the reality set in of what he did, then he had to start thinking of an excuse to cover his ass from the public outcry that he knew would happen. I wouldn't even be shocked if some attorney from the NYP spoon fed him that excuse to use in the heat of the moment either. In my opinion, this photographer is among the lowest form of scum on the planet. Having a moral compass which tells you that taking a picture is of more importance that that of a fellow human being makes me just want to vomit. I hope people on the street spit on this waste of skin. He gives all of us a bad name.

And while I'm sure there were other people out there that could have helped this poor man, what someone else does or doesn't do should not be the determining factor in what -YOU- do. We do know one thing for sure, this photographer probably could have saved this man's life, and if he couldn't have actually done it, he should have at least attempted to do something other than raise his camera, focus the shot, and start taking pictures.

BS! You probably would had screamed like a little girl and peed in your pants and the man would still be dead. You were not there so don't assume that you can do better than anyone in the same situation.

No need to respond, you'll just continue to look bad.

There, I said it.

me voy wrote:

BS! You probably would had screamed like a little girl and peed in your pants and the man would still be dead. You were not there so don't assume that you can do better than anyone in the same situation.

No need to respond, you'll just continue to look bad.

There, I said it.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know you were God. I think I'll respond anyway though, if you don't mind because I still stand by what I said regardless of your worthless contribution to this thread. I actually have helped people out in worse situations than this, so yeah, I kind of DO know what it's like to be around life or death scenarios like this because I've been there. So, yeah, go fuck yourself, and have a nice day.

Gippingvalleyphotograph wrote:
None of us know how we would really react in a similar situation unless we have actually been there. Some people go into overdrive in a crisis - others freeze. Different situations promote different reactions in different people. I know tough builders who run from spiders.

Remember, the only difference between a hero and a fool is whether their actions were successful. - success = brave, failure = idiot.

Criticise the tog, fine, criticise the paper, OK, want to make a difference? - stop buying the paper. That is the only objection which makes a difference. I'll bet a significant number of the people who paid their cash for a copy of the paper would criticise it's publication - but they sponsored it.

We are all hypocrites

+1

Olson Images wrote:
I'm pretty sure that I'm the only member of the site who has actually been pushed off a subway platform. So forgive my absolutist position:

Anyone who did ANYTHING other than rush over to this man and try to pull him up and out did the WRONG thing.

I agree. Everyone else has to justify their actions.  To have to justify your actions, whether it's taking the photo, selling the photo or publishing the photo admits that they did not make the right decision.  And everyone who might have stood there watching needs to do a gut check themselves.

Oh yeah, just one more individual expressing a personal opinion.  And I feel I have the right to speak because I have been in the position to take action. I was only 17, but acted instinctively.

Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
shame on the new york post for creating that cover.

i am not familiar with the new york post.

but that cover does not seem real!  it looks like a tabloid cover..

Shot By Adam wrote:
So, yeah, go fuck yourself, and have a nice day.

Gotta love the 4-letter words... ... can you spell the word 'brig'...

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
i am not familiar with the new york post.

but that cover does not seem real!  it looks like a tabloid cover..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post
It is a tabloid

me voy wrote:
The photographer and the newspaper did the right thing. By publishing the photo, they showed the dangers of the subway system in NY.

They also created some MONSTEROUS media sensationalism... in fact I wouldn't be suprized to see a rash of 'subway train pushings' in the future...

John M Hoyt wrote:

When you don't have an actual train wreck to photograph for the news, you have to use whatever you can.  Hrmmm maybe the photographer paid the bum to push the guy?  Nah.

Plausible.

Charles Stuart.

DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:

That's the difference between a coward and a hero.

Or wise and dead.

Karl Johnston wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post
It is a tabloid

oh.  i hadn't seen it before but i suppose i thought i had.  a name like "the new york post" seems more legit than others, i guess.  i thought it was a newspaper.

Abbasi told The Times that he held his camera outstretched in front of the train, snapping his flash 49 times in a vain attempt to get the train conductor to slow down.

Daeda1us wrote:

Read the thread.
Very few blamed the photographer.  Most blamed the NY Post for running the photo, especially on the cover.

It was interesting that someone had the same thought I had, Kevin Carter's picture of the sudan girl and vulture.
Kevin Carter got the Pulitzer for that photo.  The girl was trying to crawl to a feeding center.  She was dying in slow motion.
When contacted, the NYTimes did not know if the girl ever made it to the feeding center.  Which means Kevin Carter very likely took the picture, then did nothing to help the girl.  He surely didnt carry her to the feeding center.  (As opposed to the actions of Nick Ut, after he took the picture of Kim Phuc he took her to a hospital where her horrific injuries were treated and she survived.)

Kevin Carter was awarded the Pulitzer Prize.

And now people are condeming this photographer for not putting aside his camera and putting himself at risk to save a man he did not know and probably could not have saved.

Some would say there is a double standard.

My two cents, YMMV
Daeda1us

PS, there were other people on the platform, yet I saw none in the photo running toward the man.

This photo and Kevin Carter's photo have nothing in common.

One is a story about a person and the other is a story about a people.

Olson Images wrote:
I'm pretty sure that I'm the only member of the site who has actually been pushed off a subway platform. So forgive my absolutist position:

Anyone who did ANYTHING other than rush over to this man and try to pull him up and out did the WRONG thing.

/thread

Mi Do wrote:

It would be easier to teach survival skills. A drunk can always fall over a rail, a bum can always toss a child over a rail... a teen can always hop the guards.

Questions that need to be answered in a PSA:
• If you/your child/your wife/your grandma is on the tracks, then how do you get the attention of the driver of the train?
• How do you get off the tracks if you find yourself in that position?
• How do you safely help someone off the tracks?
• If the train is coming too fast, what should you do to protect your life?

You walk into the tunnel and turn off the power. The brakes require power to be disengaged. When there's no power, the train will not run.

Mi Do wrote:
It would be easier to teach survival skills. A drunk can always fall over a rail, a bum can always toss a child over a rail... a teen can always hop the guards.

Questions that need to be answered in a PSA:
• If you/your child/your wife/your grandma is on the tracks, then how do you get the attention of the driver of the train?
• How do you get off the tracks if you find yourself in that position?
• How do you safely help someone off the tracks?
• If the train is coming too fast, what should you do to protect your life?

MC Photo wrote:
You walk into the tunnel and turn off the power. The brakes require power to be disengaged. When there's no power, the train will not run.

Good ideas..debate aside, I think that is the only thing anyone can really go forward with doing now. Finding out how to make sure it does not happen again

Karl Johnston wrote:

Mi Do wrote:
It would be easier to teach survival skills. A drunk can always fall over a rail, a bum can always toss a child over a rail... a teen can always hop the guards.

Questions that need to be answered in a PSA:
• If you/your child/your wife/your grandma is on the tracks, then how do you get the attention of the driver of the train?
• How do you get off the tracks if you find yourself in that position?
• How do you safely help someone off the tracks?
• If the train is coming too fast, what should you do to protect your life?

Good ideas..debate aside, I think that is the only thing anyone can really go forward with doing now. Finding out how to make sure it does not happen again

The photos or being pushed on to the tracks?

People will be pushed, fall, and jump.


If something happens to reduce these incidences, it will be because of this photograph. Otherwise hundreds/thousands of times in the past that were undocumented would have made sure this didn't happen.