Patrick Walberg wrote:

You certainly don't need to read the brunt of the 4 pages, Michael, and for the most part, I agree with you on the OP.

Even though the OP has not been back to post, I hope she is reading answers such as yours.   You are correct in saying that "In order for TF to work, both parties should get something ..."  Since nearly half the shoots I do are "TFP" I take it seriously.  This is a different situation than when testing, or when one party is getting paid.   At the very least, the photographer owes the model some clear communication even if a complete disaster struck ... as memory cards can get deleted and computer hard drives can crash among other things that can happen! 

Often times I will show the models the images on my camera at some point during or after a shoot.  It can be very educational in my opinion.  However the digital age has brought photographers such a convenience, it can also work against us.  Sometimes I miss the days when film was our only choice, because what we see on the camera is NOT always going to look like the finished product.  In fact, most times it does not!  So when I do show the images of a shoot to a model, I remind her of that fact. 

About reshoots ... I disagree with you on that one!  There are times when a reshoot maybe acceptable.  I do agree that if a TFP session results in no acceptable images that the photographer should at least compensate for the models time with some sort of payment, but depending on the circumstances and the working relationship between the photographer and model, a reshoot is possible.  Back in the days when we shot film, people were more understanding to that.  Again, it goes back to that one word I keep harping about "Communication!"

i'm reading. (: i'm keeping everything in mind.

Nicole Packs  wrote:
I feel for you girl
Had the same thing happen to me.
I'm sorry you ended up with none or close to nothing for your port.

it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

GM Photography wrote:
If she felt the photos were bad due to her actions, she should offer a re-shoot or some other form of compensation for your time.

Absolutely!  "She is so sweet" doesn't justify no product / no reshoot.

EmGii wrote:

it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

I think its kinda mean that she wasted your time and was lol about it.

EmGii wrote:
it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

Haha! I know what you mean!
I wanted to send one long e-mail of venting to this photag I worked with but I decided not to. I just never spoke/worked with her again.
My story in short:
We had shot together before. I liked her and she liked me and we did TFP. Both are ports were benefited. Plus I got to see all the photos from the shoot like I had requested! Which was great because seeing the photos lets me learn from my mistakes and grow as a model. I have never posted her work without credit (bc that was her concern) and I posted what we mutually agreed on that I can use because she was really concerned for her "photographer's reputation". She didn't want me posting a photo she wasn't proud of. Fine.
After shooting together like three times, she offered another shoot at a another location bc I was a model she was most comfortable working with.
We didn't even talk of TFP for this shoot because I (mistakenly) assumed it would be just like our other past shoots! Logical though process considering how smoothly everything ran before, right?
Nope .
After hours of shooting and more than a month of waiting she sent me a small handful of photos of HER choosing which were not beneficial to my port at all. I asked her how come she didn't send me or show me photos like we had did on our other shoots.  "My policy has changed." I would of loved to know that before the shoot! I mean I provided wardrobe and makeup and the whole hootenany. I worked really hard to make great photos and I was given photos of what I felt were my worst poses? That wasn't fair.
I tried to come to agreement with her and after a lot of what seemed like huffing and puffing she agreed to send me a contact sheet.
The contact sheet had really grainy and tiny photos and I can barely see my pose or facial expression. I asked her if I can have some photos of my port from my choosing? "I'll see what I can do."
The photos I chose, were some of the best looks I've ever pulled off. Didn't get them. One photo I was sure I was going to use on my comp card she could not send me because she didn't like "the lighting on my hand."
I was heart broken But I wasn't going to beg for the photos.
They were sent really late with no prior notification of her sudden change of policy.
I use one photo from the shoot as a filler but its not my proudest.
I don't think photag understands that a model's perspective on photos is different from photographer's perspective.
And to be honest, even IF the lighting on that hand was indeed awkward (I don't know, the photo was too small for me to tell) a possible agent of mine wouldn't be looking that the hand has light on it, they are looking at my pose.
I guess I'll never understand why she turned.

Star wrote:
clients pay me

Do you tell your models that you test with "Investing your modeling talents in our test shoot has zero value to me and in fact I may not give you any images in trade after all."?

Star wrote:
clients pay me

Loki Studio wrote:
Do you tell your llamas that you test with "Investing your llamaing talents in our test shoot has zero value to me and in fact I may not give you any images in trade after all."?

seems to be a confusion of terms here by interchanging test and trade.

a test, whether that's for lighting or other gear, should not carry the same expectation for producing marketable imaging due to pushing some limits rather than pursuing marketable imaging quality.  if such quality works, fine.  if it doesn't, there's still value in working the craft, it just doesn't come from pictures.

the collaboration for trading with the intent of producing marketable imaging is at best a hobbyist approach.  it's a false sense of economic value based on shot in the dark speculation.  professionals simply don't operate that way if they have any business sense.  they are paid to create marketable imaging or they compensate those to create the imaging (such as stock photography) without providing images at all due to sullying the market value of what's produced.

there's also this false notion that images equal the only form of payment for tf*.  the pictures themselves through tf* are simply an earned benefit in trading one's time through speculation which may or may not produce expected results.  if the speculation does not produce marketable imaging results in the trade there is still value in the sense of one working toward learning and improving the craft.

tf* is a learning process and not an earning process.  to wit, if the llama sucks then where is the value in pictures for the photographer?  there isn't, the value for the photographer is the learning process to give better direction. 

if the photography sucks where is the value in pictures for the llama?  there isn't, the value for the llama was learning new methods for movement and extending emotion. 

in both cases the value becomes the learning experience and not in the results of actual pictures.  for both parties through learning the craft if "lightning in a bottle" is captured then all the better.  however, if that's the expectation then that is reserved for compensation for those who can meet that expectation each and every time which defines the difference between professional from the hobbyist.

if, for either party, the only value received through a tf* collaboration is getting pictures then i dare say you're doing it wrong.

Nicole Packs  wrote:
We didn't even talk of TFP for this shoot because I (mistakenly) assumed it would be just like our other past shoots! Logical though process considering how smoothly everything ran before, right?
Nope .
After hours of shooting and more than a month of waiting she sent me a small handful of photos of HER choosing which were not beneficial to my port at all. I asked her how come she didn't send me or show me photos like we had did on our other shoots.  "My policy has changed." I would of loved to know that before the shoot! I mean I provided wardrobe and makeup and the whole hootenany. I worked really hard to make great photos and I was given photos of what I felt were my worst poses? That wasn't fair.

There are times when letting the llama see the unedited photos can leave you seriously burned. I've had llamas really abuse it in the past and I've had to adjust accordingly. It's possible that another llama did something that she didn't like and she just said "no more." I've considered it several times myself. It seems wrong though to punish a reliable llama for the abuses of another. You're right, IMO, that she should have given you some forewarning of a new arrangement. It's odd that she had fast to it with someone that hasn't abused the access in the past.

Loki Studio wrote:

Do you tell your models that you test with "Investing your modeling talents in our test shoot has zero value to me and in fact I may not give you any images in trade after all."?

I don't call them clients that is for sure.

Your other statement has no relevance to my first statement so I am choosing to ignore it as trolling.

D S P wrote:
Sorry to hear that. Even when we experiment with new techniques or lighting, we do play it safe and shoot some stuff to cover our asses so that all involved get something useable out of the shoot.

That comment should end the thread.

Before I do a test or trade to test lighting I set up my "test model" (a dummy really), set the lighting and shoot test shots. When shoot day comes I have a good idea of what will work and what will not?

For a test I shoot 100 to 150 shots. Of that number I get 25-40 good shots to send to the model.

Trade means both model and photographer get a fair shake.

EmGii wrote:

it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

Wow,

Not only mean but drama filled. Why bother her? She didn't do a good enough job on the shots to release them. Then for whatever reason she didn't have the gumption to tell you sooner.

Give her a break. Don't bust her butt.

Sheesh. It happens.
Jen

Caustic Disco wrote:
um, that's shitty, it's not a trade if you get NOTHING.

This.

MyrnaByrna wrote:

Wow,

Not only mean but drama filled. Why bother her? She didn't do a good enough job on the shots to release them. Then for whatever reason she didn't have the gumption to tell you sooner.

Give her a break. Don't bust her butt.

Sheesh. It happens.
Jen

don't worry, i was just joking around. she's super sweet, i just wish i could see how my expressions were. >o

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
its only professional for the Photographer to send you some images on a trade.

professionals don't usually do tf*, we do tests which may or may not yield results. Most likely the photographer was not a professional photographer and that is why they were not able to get any images from the shoot.

EmGii wrote:
it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

You never know, there are members that just read and do not respond to threads. For the first 3 years I was a member here, I might have posted in 30 or 40 threads; I tended to just read everything and not respond.

She may have read this by now as long as this thread has gone. Maybe she will all of a sudden decide to send you a link to proof sheets of the images.

I personally believe that even if a photographer is unhappy with the results, even if it is their own fault the images were not up to par that they should share the images with the team (when more than just a model is involved) for review. Or just the model if it is strictly a model/photographer collaboration.

We all learn from our mistakes and can take in what we should have done and use that knowledge in the future.

EmGii wrote:
don't worry, i was just joking around. she's super sweet, i just wish i could see how my expressions were. >o

rp_photo wrote:

There is nothing lovely about that self-centered jerk!

IMHO, photographers do not have a monopoly on deciding what is good, and both sides should get to see everything in a trade shoot and have the opportunity to make selections.

+1
Totally agree .. I've lofted on getting edits out to models before but never months and if I don't like the shots I got due to something I messed up I think the photographer should offer to shoot you again or least give you the option of taking the messed up images.. Think it's dumb to just write off all photos just cause they aren't want she "wanted" but just my thoughts on it

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Haha! I know what you mean!
I wanted to send one long e-mail of venting to this photag I worked with but I decided not to. I just never spoke/worked with her again.
My story in short:
We had shot together before. I liked her and she liked me and we did TFP. Both are ports were benefited. Plus I got to see all the photos from the shoot like I had requested! Which was great because seeing the photos lets me learn from my mistakes and grow as a model. I have never posted her work without credit (bc that was her concern) and I posted what we mutually agreed on that I can use because she was really concerned for her "photographer's reputation". She didn't want me posting a photo she wasn't proud of. Fine.
After shooting together like three times, she offered another shoot at a another location bc I was a model she was most comfortable working with.
We didn't even talk of TFP for this shoot because I (mistakenly) assumed it would be just like our other past shoots! Logical though process considering how smoothly everything ran before, right?
Nope .
After hours of shooting and more than a month of waiting she sent me a small handful of photos of HER choosing which were not beneficial to my port at all. I asked her how come she didn't send me or show me photos like we had did on our other shoots.  "My policy has changed." I would of loved to know that before the shoot! I mean I provided wardrobe and makeup and the whole hootenany. I worked really hard to make great photos and I was given photos of what I felt were my worst poses? That wasn't fair.
I tried to come to agreement with her and after a lot of what seemed like huffing and puffing she agreed to send me a contact sheet.
The contact sheet had really grainy and tiny photos and I can barely see my pose or facial expression. I asked her if I can have some photos of my port from my choosing? "I'll see what I can do."
The photos I chose, were some of the best looks I've ever pulled off. Didn't get them. One photo I was sure I was going to use on my comp card she could not send me because she didn't like "the lighting on my hand."
I was heart broken But I wasn't going to beg for the photos.
They were sent really late with no prior notification of her sudden change of policy.
I use one photo from the shoot as a filler but its not my proudest.
I don't think photag understands that a model's perspective on photos is different from photographer's perspective.
And to be honest, even IF the lighting on that hand was indeed awkward (I don't know, the photo was too small for me to tell) a possible agent of mine wouldn't be looking that the hand has light on it, they are looking at my pose.
I guess I'll never understand why she turned.

awh. i'm sorry. /: no fun!

Raven-Lily wrote:
usually if a photographer is playing with lighting, location etc and are not sure how the photos will come out, then they offer paid work, simply because they know there maybe a chance that these pics are not portfolio worthy, so instantly offer pay, if in the end it works well, i get to have a handful of the shots even though they paid me, to them its an experiment, dont work TF if its a photographers experiment unless this is your own experiment and know you wont add these pics to your portfolio and the photographer is also willing to help you step into a genre you are not sure about.

Nope - I very often shoot tests with new camera or lighting equipment or attempt new lighting techniques as part of a TFP shoot - that said, I'll do some 'safe' shots for the model's port to be on the safe side, but she'll be told there are no guarantees with the experimental stuff.

What's the difference between a model 'experimenting' and a photographer 'experimenting' - you seem to be suggesting it's OK for the model to try out stuff that might not work but not the photographer - as long as both parties agree, I don't see a problem...

T A Y L O R  wrote:
+100 This. You could message her and say, "I understand and respect that the images did not come out to your satisfaction. As this shoot was a trade for images however, and I did not receive any images, I'm going to have to ask that you either send me X number of edited images or pay my rates for the time we spent shooting, which are X."

This x1000000000

EmGii wrote:

awh. i'm sorry. /: no fun!

She sounds vary unprofessional for not telling you of her changes, that or its PMS... lol
Sorry for your bad experience.

Amber Dawn  -  Colorado wrote:
Photographers need to remember to play with the light while you are there do some practice images and get the lighting just right before actually taking the good images and maybe reviewing them as you go.

Thanks for reminding us! haha

IrisSwope wrote:

Thanks for reminding us! haha

Well Photographers do if this Model cant get images back because this photographer was using the wrong lighting and not checking to see if it was working for the images.

You cant just set up a lighting system and expect it to work for all types of shoots.

Check the images as you go, set up a laptop so you can see the images as they are being taken.