John Choi wrote:

Thank you.  Hey I see you're in Korea!  awesome.  (pouring you a soju from Los angeles)

LOL, nooooo! I can't stand soju! I'm moving back to the States next week and can't wait to stock my fridge with Blue Moon.

Daeda1us wrote:

TADA!!!!

Houston, we have found the problem.


Daeda1us

+1
(I too have heard the line, "My photographer friend said....". I just smile and say that I am not him and all photographers have their way of doing things. His way is not my way.)

Any model should be doing backflips that she found a photographer who was willing to part with the RAW files.

I agree that it's the photographer's job to provide edited print and web ready images (in JPEG), it is not the photographer's job to give them everything.

For a TF shoot, in addition to an agreed number of full size edited photos, I provide models a copy of all the unedited images, but in a SCALED DOWN JPEG (about 900x600). I also make it clear that only images I have edited are to be shared with anyone; via e-mail, Facebook, MySpace, text MMS, etc.. I tell her that I am giving he copies as a favor so that she can learn from her mistakes and work on her posing. I provide them with a CD of the images before she leaves, and she can e-mail me the file names of the images she wants edited. (again, we agreed on a number).

For a paid shoot (where I pay the model) I make it clear that she is only entitled to cash, not images. I can and will take my time with the edits, and if I decide to give her images, she will only get copies once whatever project I am doing gets released.
She gets cash, not images and cash. If she insists on getting copies, I get someone else.

DavidCoward Photography wrote:

LOL, nooooo! I can't stand soju! I'm moving back to the States next week and can't wait to stock my fridge with Blue Moon.

What?  You don't like soju? 

On a side note, I like how your profile distinguishes "south" Korea. Like there's a hotbed of photography in north korea

DavidCoward Photography wrote:
LOL, nooooo! I can't stand soju! I'm moving back to the States next week and can't wait to stock my fridge with Blue Moon.

John Choi wrote:
What?  You don't like soju? 

On a side note, I like how your profile distinguishes "south" Korea. Like there's a hotbed of photography in north korea

Can't stand the stuff. A local bar/club offers up the popular "soju kettle," which is bascially a bottle of soju added to a liter of kool-aid. That stuff will kick your ass! Nope, give me a rum drink, a gin drink, or a decent bottle of beer and I'm happy.

I think the only photography that's allowed in N. Korea is state-approved propaganda.

L Cowles Photography wrote:
I think it is best to give the model a DVD with jpgs.  These anyone can open up.  Most models are not into printing images and really need them for the web.  I shoot Raw and jpg so I can give them the jpgs.

+1

Stanley L Moore wrote:
In support of the OP Mr Choi, Hi do much as he does. Most of my shoots are paid (by me) and most models are not pros. These guys expect all the pics and I supply them on dvd unedited but I shoot in jpg not raw. I edit s couple dozen and hive them the rest.

I see some sppalling edits but I don't appreciate care much. I think the OP is generous. His only mistake was not giving jpgs.

thank you Stanley.  But as I posted already, I always ask the models if they had any trouble seeing the files.  And in this case, it was like a month after the shoot she came back demanding jpegs.  If a model cannot open the files as I can't remember ever happening, then I'd be happy to convert them.  But she was not very nice so I didn't.

John Choi wrote:
I'm still relatively new to MM and also to fashion photography. But I've been doing it for over 6 months an have done quite a bit of shooting. Generally, I like to do a TF shoot where after I shoot with a model I give them a DVD or two of the entire shoot plus several edited photos. The number of edited photos varies but roughly it's about 2-5% depending on the number of images. For instance a typical shoot will have about 400 images and I will edit around 10-20 images. Furthermore, I usually will tell the model that if they like any of the non edited images, I'd be happy to edit or retouch a few of them. The images are in NEF format as I shoot with a Nikon camera.

Ok, so recently I shot a model and thought the shoot went great. When I emailed her some images she replied with "OMG I love these!"  So I was happy. We even scheduled a second shoot.

Then a week later she abruptly cancelled the shoot via text and wanted to know when she would receive the DVDs. This was about one week after the original shoot and I had already emailed her about 8 edited images. I told her I'd be happy to hand over the DVD if she meets me with a signed release which I gave her and forgot to get signed. I was planning on giving her the DVDs when we met for our shoot. An the tone of her texts were very cold and felt very different than previous correspondence.  We met a few days later and exchanged DVDs for release.

Now a few weeks later (original shoot was I think over a month ago) she texts me saying why can't she open the files. I advised her downloading a free software like Picasa an she should be able to view the files. I've sent dozens of these DVDs to different models and i have never heard of a problem.  I also advised her that she should get used to handling RAW files as I believe most photogs shoot in that format (please tell me if you guys agree).  Then after several texts she said something about it being not her job to convert files. She's the model and I'm the photographer an I'm waisting her time.  If she asked nicely, I would have actually gone back and converted all (I think over 400 images I think) images to JPEg but thought she was being so rude that I told her lets just go our separate ways.

Am I being unreasonable?  I really feel like I am not being unreasonable. I'd love to hear from models and photogs and anyone else who had an opinion.

Based on what You are saying.
You are being awesome! She obviously doesn't understand the quality of service you have given her. I wouldn't get upset with yourself over it.
If she can't convert raw to jpg then i'm sure she doesn't know the value of raw files.
She needs to be nicer over it for sure.

Connor Photography wrote:
If no one have said this yet.  Let me say it now. 

If you are way too nice and make us look bad.

In the future, release only the edited pics.  One to two edited images for each look are plenty within 2 weeks after the shoot. 

Don't dig a hole for yourself to fall in, please.

Ok got it.  I will do accordingly from now on.

Caitin   wrote:

Based on what You are saying.
You are being awesome! She obviously doesn't understand the quality of service you have given her. I wouldn't get upset with yourself over it.
If she can't convert raw to jpg then i'm sure she doesn't know the value of raw files.
She needs to be nicer over it for sure.

Thank you Caitin, it's nice to hear that from a model.  The only other model who responded if I didn't overlook anyone said I was an idiot and misspelled "you're". 

I feel much better.  But based on I think a majority of the posts so far, I probably should have done more to prevent the misunderstanding in the first place.  So no more mr nice guy?

Shon D.- Homme wrote:
Also, I think you do WAY too much for these models anyway. Editing 10-20 images from a shoot is overkill. What is someone going to do with 20 images of themselves in the same green dress? And giving them all the unedited photos on top of that? HELL. NO. What's happening now is that people expect that from you and want to push further. You're already doing WAY more than most other photographers will do (I only edit one or two photos PER LOOK and do not give out any unedited photos), and she wants to complain about the file type (a problem that she could easily remedy herself.)

Not me. No ma'am. I'll got out of my way for nice/polite people. But you are not going to make demands (and rudely at that.)

I totally agree. I NEVER give unedited images in ANY format!! Giving ALL RAW images is just wrong. Professional photographers just don't do that. You may not consider yourself a professional, but as they say... "Play the part, until you get the part".

Natural Means wrote:
Can you shoot raw + ?

Its working well - I give as many or as few of the low res unprocessed jpegs out of the camera to the model as she wants.

Then 5-8 processed shoots as jpegs. A couple of trusted sensible models have got raws to play with but in general raw files are a PITA for model to manage store and use.

And echoing others above 10-20 processed shot is fairly generous but if it works for you - carry on.

Yes definitely I can shoot raw+.  Just need to click that on my camera.  I will sometimes shoot like a mad man and end up with thousands of files so I stopped doing that and just now shoot RAW. 

When I'm editing, if I see something I like or love I just can't help wanting to send it back to the model.  I generally feel very grateful she took her time to pose for me for free.  So actually I've given WAY more than that at times.

John Choi wrote:
Yes definitely I can shoot raw+.  Just need to click that on my camera.  I will sometimes shoot like a mad man and end up with thousands of files so I stopped doing that and just now shoot RAW. 

When I'm editing, if I see something I like or love I just can't help wanting to send it back to the model.  I generally feel very grateful she took her time to pose for me for free.  So actually I've given WAY more than that at times.

Its pretty easy to sort you files by type and bulk delete the jpegs them as soon as they serve their purpose (cut don't copy) . But anyway thats just my process.

All the best

Natural Means wrote:

Its pretty easy to sort you files by type and bulk delete the jpegs them as soon as they serve their purpose (cut don't copy) . But anyway thats just my process.

All the best

Thank you (I don't know your name).  I will try that.  And love your port BTW.  This summer I think I'd like to have more beach shoots.  But it's strangely cold in southern cali right now.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Funny everybody sees the OP as too nice
I see misinformed
Not placing value on his work
Bad Judgment
A bit foolish
Learn a lesson from the Beyonce kerfuffle

A photographer is not
Mean, Evil, Stingy because they don't want substandard work being released

I totally didn't read that everyone said I was too nice.  Many yes.  But I also feel like most were criticizing me in exactly the same way you did.

I think for the most part I agree with you, but you're making a giant leap when you say I don't place value on my work.  My edited work is precious to me and I think of them as a gift to anyone who worked with me.  The unedited files I think of as basically trash that I want my models to look at for their benefit to improve their modeling skills.  Also, they may actually like some of those pics more than the ones I liked.  Who am I to say only the ones I like are the ones they'd like?  If they want a different picture to put on their portfolio, Id like them to pick and have me edit them.  I enjoy doing this so I dont see how you can come to the conclusion you did.  My name is not on the RAW files that I put on a DVD. 

misinformed, bad judgement, and bit foolish is mostly correct. 

I appreciate your critique even though it does come across rather arrogant.

Loriel Hunter wrote:

Blah blah blah your an idiot

*you're*

Regarding the "idiot" accusation, I am tempted but, I will refrain.

Good luck on MM.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Funny everybody sees the OP as too nice
I see misinformed
Not placing value on his work
Bad Judgment
A bit foolish
Learn a lesson from the Beyonce kerfuffle

A photographer is not
Mean, Evil, Stingy because they don't want substandard work being released

Dude, respect for others and a sense of humility are virtues. Seriously. Glass houses.

John Choi wrote:

When I'm editing, if I see something I like or love I just can't help wanting to send it back to the model.  I generally feel very grateful she took her time to pose for me for free.  So actually I've given WAY more than that at times.

She didn't pose for free; she posed for trade.

John Choi wrote:
... but you're making a giant leap when you say I don't place value on my work.  My edited work is precious to me and I think of them as a gift to anyone who worked with me.  The unedited files I think of as basically trash that I want my models ...

I'm just wondering how you can place value on your work when you allow what you refer to as "trash" to possibly make it's way out into cyberspace. I would think that anyone having sub par work (unedited files) floating around out there could possibly devalue their work. But that's just my mindset.

I'm not going to suggest what you should or shouldn't do - how you conduct your business is not anyone else's concern but your own. That said, I just found your comments in bold to be somewhat ironic.

L Cowles Photography wrote:
I think it is best to give the model a DVD with jpgs.  These anyone can open up.  Most models are not into printing images and really need them for the web.  I shoot Raw and jpg so I can give them the jpgs.

Agreed.  Giving models raw images can backfire on you.

1) They are high resolution and screaming: "steal me".  Not necessarily by the model, but if she posts them somewhere as a high res image it's asking for trouble IMHO.

2) You probably don't want the model's 'edit' being posted.  Some are good or have good people retouch images; some are atrocious. 

Either way, you have just lost control of your images when you give anybody high resolution copies of them. 

My 2¢

sweet gamine wrote:

She didn't pose for free; she posed for trade.

In this particular case yes you're right she did pose for trade and I feel like I more than compensated for that.  But I was talking more generally.  And I have had many models/females pose for me for free with no expected compensation.  And in that case I am even more willing to go out of my way to give them my best work.  I will even get prints for them as well.

Loriel Hunter wrote:
Blah blah blah your an idiot

Why is that phrase almost always misspelled?

Orca Bay Images wrote:

Why is that phrase almost always misspelled?

I think that Cuica got it right by referring to those who live in glass houses...

To the OP, giving away all of the raw files (in either RAW format or JPG) is terribly generous and inviting problems from more than a few standpoints.  There has been some solid advice here that you've paid attention to so far.  Good luck to you moving forward!

F8 Productions, Inc.

Shon D.- Homme wrote:
Fuck her. She can convert the files herself.

STRAIGHT to the point!  :-)

Dan K Photography wrote:
No, you are really generous. But you have to keep in mind that most people do not know what to do with raws. Just convert them before putting them on DVD.

+1

I've had Photoshop Wizards unable to open...

John Choi wrote:

I suppose I should stop giving out all the pics.  My main reason for doing so is to help the model really see herself in a photo to help her to become a better model.  And since I don't have my name on it, I don't really care that it gets out even though it's not my best work.  I am only protective of my edited work.  I don't know, it's just a bunch of data bits.  I guess I should be more protective.

I have one model with whom I have worked for a number of years and I don't mind giving her raw files because there is a high level of trust between us and I know she has the skills to make her own interpretations of the images.

There is a small number of models to whom I give jpegs of the entire shoot.  Those are models who are serious about improving their posing and want to see both the good and the not so good.  Those models are very much in the minority.

If you continue to give out raw images, you will get burned sooner or later - it is a certainty.

If you want to give out full sets of images, I suggest you get a copy of Lightroom, make a large watermark that says "Proof Image" or similar, then export the files as a batch with that watermark across the middle of the photos.

natural beauties of qld wrote:

I have one model with whom I have worked for a number of years and I don't mind giving her raw files because there is a high level of trust between us and I know she has the skills to make her own interpretations of the images.

There is a small number of models to whom I give jpegs of the entire shoot.  Those are models who are serious about improving their posing and want to see both the good and the not so good.  Those models are very much in the minority.

If you continue to give out raw images, you will get burned sooner or later - it is a certainty.

If you want to give out full sets of images, I suggest you get a copy of Lightroom, make a large watermark that says "Proof Image" or similar, then export the files as a batch with that watermark across the middle of the photos.

+1

Shon D.- Homme wrote:
Fuck her. She can convert the files herself.

Oh my god I chuckled when I read this especially when looking at the avi lol

Cuica Cafezinho wrote:

*you're*

Regarding the "idiot" accusation, I am tempted but, I will refrain.

Good luck on MM.

This +1.

Be careful whose toes you step on today they might be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow.