Alejandro Crespo wrote:
With all the info available these days out there (MM, youtube, workshops, dvds, books, etc), that give a good anchor point to compare ones work with. Why there are still a lot of people doing early 90's like basic retouching, with all kinds of strange effects and stuff?

I'm going to guess that it's for the same reason there are bad photographers, bad programmers, bad baseball players, bad painters....

Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

Kevin Connery wrote:
Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

This is really good short answer and to the point. Read it twice and think for a minute.

Kevin Connery wrote:

I'm going to guess that it's for the same reason there are bad photographers, bad programmers, bad baseball players, bad painters....

Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

Amen !!!!

George Ruge wrote:
Because even people with absolutely NO artistic ability can buy PS??:-))

Or download it...

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
But retouching is such a graphic sphere, where the idea of it is supposed to be that one should match any given image to an ideal of beauty that is widely accepted in the modern society. Of course there is some room for individual creativity, but the ideal of perfection is still the same, and its shown everywhere, i mean one can see the retouching that one has done and directly, anywhere compare with any add. It's not like other fields where one can create anything and just say, "this is my art, i see the world like this". You have to bring an image to a model, the rules are given.

Today I was trying to find some fashion RAW images in the contest section, and saw some results of work that some people posted, and, damn, I mean, extraterrestrial skin tones that dont have any concept or composition, fluorescent eyes, incredibly exaggerated and not equilibrated color casts, cheap effects, ultra fake looking hair, etc. I mean, one must be blind if you cant watch at your image, to a magazine (any), to your image again and see that something is oddly wrong there lol. I totally accept that there are different styles and all, but there are a lot of "trash-level" stuff out there.

P.S. Saw 10 pages of that stuff, and only managed to find 1 fashion image that will be useful lol.

That's a very interesting statement coming from you and based on your port... how can you judge your fellow retouchers that way if you are actually in the same group... I could understand it if you were a recognise professional but really??

Those people your talking about are just learning, give them the right to make mistakes and be creative on their own right way.. you should be creative too!!

Every professional was on that level at some point!!

GoldieImages wrote:
It would be one or more of the following:
1. They lack knowledge.
2. They lack artistic ability.
3. They think they're good enough already (ala Dunning-Kruger effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 … ger_effect).

#3 - and the OP *really* needs to click that link

The Invisible Touch wrote:
That's a very interesting statement coming from you and based on your port... how can you judge your fellow retouchers that way if you are actually in the same group... I could understand it if you were a recognise professional but really??

Those people your talking about are just learning, give them the right to make mistakes and be creative on their own right way.. you should be creative too!!

Every professional was on that level at some point!!

Wow,  that was totally unsolicited...

Nienna1990 wrote:

Wow,  that was totally unsolicited...

Lol true but he does have. Point

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
Why there are still a lot of people doing early 90's like basic retouching, with all kinds of strange effects and stuff?

Because they can?

With all the information out there about digital photography, how can a photographer not improve but some don't. Same with retouchers.

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
But retouching is such a graphic sphere, where the idea of it is supposed to be that one should match any given image to an ideal of beauty that is widely accepted in the modern society. Of course there is some room for individual creativity, but the ideal of perfection is still the same, and its shown everywhere, i mean one can see the retouching that one has done and directly, anywhere compare with any add. It's not like other fields where one can create anything and just say, "this is my art, i see the world like this". You have to bring an image to a model, the rules are given.

Today I was trying to find some fashion RAW images in the contest section, and saw some results of work that some people posted, and, damn, I mean, extraterrestrial skin tones that dont have any concept or composition, fluorescent eyes, incredibly exaggerated and not equilibrated color casts, cheap effects, ultra fake looking hair, etc. I mean, one must be blind if you cant watch at your image, to a magazine (any), to your image again and see that something is oddly wrong there lol. I totally accept that there are different styles and all, but there are a lot of "trash-level" stuff out there.

P.S. Saw 10 pages of that stuff, and only managed to find 1 fashion image that will be useful lol.

Some are still learning. Good retouching and good photoshopping in general has a LONG learning curve.

Nienna1990 wrote:

Wow,  that was totally unsolicited...

Maybe was a bit direct/harsh if so ... sorry but at the end of the day is the truth!! :-)

In Balance Photography wrote:

#3 - and the OP *really* needs to click that link

Thanks . It clarifies a lot of things now.

The Invisible Touch wrote:
That's a very interesting statement coming from you and based on your port... how can you judge your fellow retouchers that way if you are actually in the same group... I could understand it if you were a recognise professional but really??

Those people your talking about are just learning, give them the right to make mistakes and be creative on their own right way.. you should be creative too!!

Every professional was on that level at some point!!

Oooow, im gonna cry in the bathroom lol.

But, anyway, i suppose that I've to answer that "attack":

1st, Thats not my portfolio (i dont have one, if you read some of my threads), just a bunch of pics I had , arent so bad anyway.
2nd I didnt wrote anywhere that im a good retouchier, not even closer to state that im a professional, I didn't even started to offer any services openly yet nor do I have a website.
3rd  If they're still learning, why tha hell are they 2yr + on MM and still do the same things. Im not critizing the newbies, but the ones that are marketing themselves and offering services with the kind of stuff I mentioned earlier.

And last but not least:

An opinion can came from anywhere not regarding of their "portfolio" or "professional" level when the fact is there and anyone can point at it. Notice that i didnt personally mentioned anyone in my post, and hadnt gone personally against anyone.And will not do that, even taking out the fact that you did used an inadecuate tone with your statement.

Now, back from the personal, to the post theme:
As I said before, there are people that have been years doing "wrong" stuff (i know ,they can do whatever they want and bla bla), and continue doing the same stuff..

Its like NO ONE, EVER told them "dude, you should use a "little bit" less saturation and dont change the skin tone so much, and practice a littlebit more with your selections, one can see that that was photoshopped", and other CONSTRUCTIVE critics that would indeed accelerate their learning curves. ( notice that I never mentioned any destructive thing here so far, like "they should leave the business, go work anywhere else, etc", so please some of you stop thinking that I do think that lol, i dont).

I mean, this is supposed to be one of the places where reouching is flourishing and bla bla bla. I mean, shouldnt be a higher level of "bad" work here than in any random retouching forum with 200 users?. I thought that I wouldn't find that kind of work here cause people would be receiving good critics about they work.

There is a critic section here, but, how much of you go there and criticize the work of the "newbies" as some call them?. There are only 3-6 people giving constant feedback, and no one else.

KonstantKarma wrote:
Nobody ever taught them to shout "Bad retouch! Bad!" When fondled inappropriately by a clone stamp.

You go stand in the corner with the blur tool now!

Brian Ziff wrote:
Bad is subjective.  I reserve the right to fuck up my pictures however I deem fit.

Its not subjective. Its true that there are individual styles that go out of the "normal" to give a certain effect that improves the overall "message" and composition (like in your photos, they're are great ), but i do not mean that kind of work.

Im referring to cases of incorrect selection (selections that do not select only the thing one would want to select, but grabs a bite of the background for example) and the subsequent use of those selections, application of destructive filters and techniques, incorrect masking, extremal parameters in adjustments and so on. These things are totally objective.

C A K E M I X  wrote:

You go stand in the corner with the blur tool now!

LOL

Alejandro Crespo wrote:

In Balance Photography wrote:
#3 - and the OP *really* needs to click that link

Thanks . It clarifies a lot of things now.


Oooow, im gonna cry in the bathroom lol.

But, anyway, i suppose that I've to answer that "attack":

1st, Thats not my portfolio (i dont have one, if you read some of my threads), just a bunch of pics I had , arent so bad anyway.
2nd I didnt wrote anywhere that im a good retouchier, not even closer to state that im a professional, I didn't even started to offer any services openly yet nor do I have a website.
3rd  If they're still learning, why tha hell are they 2yr + on MM and still do the same things. Im not critizing the newbies, but the ones that are marketing themselves and offering services with the kind of stuff I mentioned earlier.

And last but not least:

An opinion can came from anywhere not regarding of their "portfolio" or "professional" level when the fact is there and anyone can point at it. Notice that i didnt personally mentioned anyone in my post, and hadnt gone personally against anyone.And will not do that, even taking out the fact that you did used an inadecuate tone with your statement.

Now, back from the personal, to the post theme:
As I said before, there are people that have been years doing "wrong" stuff (i know ,they can do whatever they want and bla bla), and continue doing the same stuff..

Its like NO ONE, EVER told them "dude, you should use a "little bit" less saturation and dont change the skin tone so much, and practice a littlebit more with your selections, one can see that that was photoshopped", and other CONSTRUCTIVE critics that would indeed accelerate their learning curves. ( notice that I never mentioned any destructive thing here so far, like "they should leave the business, go work anywhere else, etc", so please some of you stop thinking that I do think that lol, i dont).

I mean, this is supposed to be one of the places where reouching is flourishing and bla bla bla. I mean, shouldnt be a higher level of "bad" work here than in any random retouching forum with 200 users?. I thought that I wouldn't find that kind of work here cause people would be receiving good critics about they work.

There is a critic section here, but, how much of you go there and criticize the work of the "newbies" as some call them?. There are only 3-6 people giving constant feedback, and no one else.

Strange to read your bio...and you say your PF isn't yours...?
As I well remember one of your images is used in the retouching DVD by Vitaly...
You say you want to get yourself into a higher level of professionalism, as many of the members of MM...why then trying to downgrade your fellowretouchers here?
You say you are good with images , not with words.
I am sorry to say i have to disagree with the first but I agree with your second statement...Your images aren't bad but neither smashing...and indeed.. you're not good with words

AKMac wrote:
Alejandro, you need to turn your attention away from retouchers who you think are bad, and turn your attention to those who are worth appreciating and learning from. It's the same for all of us. Most of us are constantly trying to become better, because we are constantly inspired by looking at work which is better.

+1

AKMac wrote:
Alejandro, you need to turn your attention away from retouchers who you think are bad, and turn your attention to those who are worth appreciating and learning from. It's the same for all of us. Most of us are constantly trying to become better, because we are constantly inspired by looking at work which is better.

you misunderstood me. I dont put any attention to them, I just saw the pics yesterday while searching something for retouch and just had to make the question .

Btw, now that I got some attention here, does anyone know where to get some good fashion raws to try on? .

richy01 wrote:
Strange to read your bio...and you say your PF isn't yours...?
As I well remember one of your images is used in the retouching DVD by Vitaly...
You say you want to get yourself into a higher level of professionalism, as many of the members of MM...why then trying to downgrade your fellowretouchers here?
You say you are good with images , not with words.
I am sorry to say i have to disagree with the first but I agree with your second statement...Your images aren't bad but neither smashing...and indeed.. you're not good with words

Im not downgrading anyone, just asking about a fact.

The retouching dvd image, is the only good quality file that ive retouched ever, thats why is the only one I have there (i retouched it myself btw lol), the rest are just personal photowork, and thanks for saying that theyre ok, all of them have heavy retouching done to them (and I mean, a lot) but they where meant to be like that, they're not even close to commercial level.

I raised this thread in part because there is almost no one criticizing works on the critic forum, and now that i poked a littlebit the bees-nest.   need critique there if you dont like my work, please say why, and dont let me stand with the incorrect ones !

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=881083 please.

And sorry for my bad english, its my 3rd language and i learned it from movies and videogames -.-.

365 Digitals Exposed wrote:
since unsolicited critics are now allow here. I would like to ask the OP in what category do you position yourself at this point of your short career. please answer me with honesty.
1) very experience
2)experience
3)some experience
4)Intermediate
5)Beginner.
6)Zero experience just messing around.
7) Wanna be Retoucher.

depending on your answer, we'll see why .there's so many bad retouchers in this industry .. some people think is very good at what they do, even though they are far away from reality.

solid 5 and im not criticizing, just asking about a fact that I observed around. Have I mentioned names or something? Im talking about a phenomena, not about concrete people. Now, Im the one whos getting unsolicited critique here...

Ken Fournelle wrote:
Why are there bad retouchers complaining about bad retouchers?

Just asking. :-)

To get critique from the better ones . And thanks for the unsolicited critique too

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
I raised this thread in part because there is almost no one criticizing works on the critic forum, and now that i poked a littlebit the bees-nest.  i need critique there if you dont like my work, please say why, and dont let me stand with the incorrect ones!

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=881083   please.

Kevin Connery wrote:
I'm going to guess that it's for the same reason there are bad photographers, bad programmers, bad baseball players, bad painters....

Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

Exactly.

Why does every mother on Facebook think their baby is the most beautiful creation since the dawn of man? Nope, sometimes it's just an ugly baby.

It has more to do with the way people think and perceive. Very few of us can objectively critique our own work.