PigeonFoo wrote:
When does the clock start?

RKD Photographic wrote:
That would have to be covered in your pre-shoot discussions.

+1

Eliza C wrote:
Sometimes a model may have to sit four hours with an MUA. I can think of prosthetics and stuff with actors that take even longer.

So I think it starts from the time you sit down with the MUA....that is unless it's your own fault because it takes an hour to get out of a gorilla suit and wash you hair ha ha.

Again.

The first post, I stated that this was pertaining to NON TEAM shoots. Sets with only the model and photographer, no one else.

RKD Photographic wrote:
I was taking the piss, but you knew that, right?

One of the challenges we face in using sarcasm around here is that some people say things in all seriousness that I wouldn't say as a joke. 

David M Russell wrote:

I don't disagree. My point is: the purpose of a break is that it's a break. It's not work. If you're working, it isn't a break. Get it?

Sure I do - but a 'mandatory break' is a paid break...so in the context of this discussion, it's irrelevant - she's still on the clock as far as pay is concerned.

PigeonFoo wrote:

Wow, spoiled workers. Haha. Here in 'Merica the 10 minute breaks might be paid, but I don't believe you get one until 3 or 4 hours (Could be wrong. And, of course, every state varies) and the 30 minute breaks are UNPAID. -Edit- And, at least when I worked a few years ago where these laws applied, the 30 minute unpaid break was not even enacted until you worked 6 hours. So if you were there for 5 hours and 45 minutes and clocked out to leave - Too damn bad. No lunch break for you.

I don't need mini breaks in shoots that last under 4 hours. I'll often use changing into another look or the photographer moving lights around as a chance to catch my wind... and of course I may want to drink something but that hardly detracts from my actual modeling so I would never count it (nor want to) towards a break.

Given the way I pose and wiggle around, and how strenuous it can be on my back and legs after a while, on the rare occasion I shoot for longer than 3 or 4 hours I may want a sit down and a snack, but my sessions often don't last that long.

That's what you get for thinking socialism is a 'bad thing' - sometimes it can be, but when it comes to worker's rights, we strike a fair balance on the whole...

RKD Photographic wrote:

I think you need to look up the word 'cavalier'...

How does having what I regard as a realistic and sensible attitude to paying the talent for their time equate to showing arrogant or offhand behaviour, a disregard for the suffering of others; a dismissive attitude, or being otherwise carefree and nonchalant?

If she turns up in a sweat-stained Gorilla suit and wearing KY-jelly in her hair I care not, as long as she gets ready during the allotted time period.

Why do I care? Because the OP asked and this is a Discussion Forum, obviously - tell me: why the fuck do you care?

I think you might want to look it up.  There is a difference between responding to a  discussion forum with your own thoughts vs spending half your day jumping on everyone else's.  So yes, it has everything to do with it.

Art of the nude wrote:

One of the challenges we face in using sarcasm around here is that some people say things in all seriousness that I wouldn't say as a joke. 

Yeah, but you've been subjected to my scathing wit and old-world charm long enough by now to know when I'm serious, surely?

Plus if you read a couple of posts further down I actually say "I was kidding" - that was the big give-away

Demeter Photography wrote:

I think you might want to look it up.  There is a difference between responding to a  discussion forum with your own thoughts vs spending half your day jumping on everyone else's.  So yes, it has everything to do with it.

I did - just to be absolutely certain you weren't talking about horse-mounted Royalist soldiery from the English Civil War, because in all honesty I really had no idea what you were on about... and no...sadly for you, it doesn't.

Here's how it works: OP asks a question, I comment, someone makes a counter comment which takes an opposite or tangential view. I make another comment reinforcing my position or expanding upon the original comment, someone states that I'm wrong (there is no 'wrong' BTW just a difference of opinion, once we all arrive at a common understanding, that becomes the accepted view), I then counter. ...and on and on...
It's called 'debate' - look that one up why don't you?

PigeonFoo wrote:

Again.

The first post, I stated that this was pertaining to NON TEAM shoots. Sets with only the model and photographer, no one else.

Sorry missed that my bad.
But essentially I don't see that it makes a difference.
If the shoot asks me to have eye make up like Siouxsie Sioux or like a zombie I can do my own make up for that and it takes a while but I am not walking through town like that. So the clock starts when I walk in through the door.

But I 90% of the time shoot with a day rate so if I walk in at 9am and the photographer wants to sit down have coffee and chat for an hour first before I even think ogf getting changed and made up then it doesn't matter. He can shoot until 8pm for all I care that's what he is paying me for.

Eliza C wrote:

Sorry missed that my bad.
But essentially I don't see that it makes a difference.
If the shoot asks me to have eye make up like Siouxsie Sioux or like a zombie I can do my own make up for that and it takes a while but I am not walking through town like that. So the clock starts when I walk in through the door.

But I 90% of the time shoot with a day rate so if I walk in at 9am and the photographer wants to sit down have coffee and chat for an hour first before I even think ogf getting changed and made up then it doesn't matter. He can shoot until 8pm for all I care that's what he is paying me for.

Hahaha, I'd walk around like that. Normally I don't see much elaborate make up done for shoots, and when it is it is one of those team adventures.

Seems like you got it working for you really well, though. In my line of work, and in my area, very few photographers would even consider a day rate to shoot with me. Normally I am hired for a two hour shoot, and the make up isn't something the photographers really worry about out here...they take what they can get. So I do simple but appealing eyes/lips before arriving and touch up as necessary during the shoot.

PigeonFoo wrote:

Hahaha, I'd walk around like that. Normally I don't see much elaborate make up done for shoots, and when it is it is one of those team adventures.

Seems like you got it working for you really well, though. In my line of work, and in my area, very few photographers would even consider a day rate to shoot with me. Normally I am hired for a two hour shoot, and the make up isn't something the photographers really worry about out here...they take what they can get. So I do simple but appealing eyes/lips before arriving and touch up as necessary during the shoot.

I used to think the same. I got an hourly rate at my main modelling job but it worked out I'd always get 8 hours so it worked out at x amount for the day. If I was free say the following wednesday when asked by a photographer I'd book it and he'd be offering £25 for an hour so two hours ok £50 not bad book it. Sod's law my main employer would call me up and I'd miss out on not just a day's work but maybe three as they'd want me for a specific continuity.

So that was the end of it for me. I thought I want a day's pay for a day's work whether 2 hours or ten. So now I am £70 an hour or a day for £175. Suddenly when you put it like that to them they like the day rate and are still saying just a few more at the end of ten hours! And I think I have only ever had one photographer who hasn't booked me again since I have been doing that. At least then if my main employer was calling me I still may lose three days but at least it wasn't just for a £50 one off job.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
in the real world, the answer is at the "call time"....

unless the model is late, she gets paid, starting from the time you asked her to be there ("call time") and she is paid until the shoot ends (it's a wrap") ..

the online world can be anything...

+1

I've now done over 100 shoots, and only one of them started the clock when we began shooting. (I didn't say anything because my day was otherwise free and it was only an extra half hour.)

When I travel, if I book a 3 hour shoot from 1:00-4:00, I get there somewhere between 12:45 and 1:00. It then takes me approximately 10-15 minutes to unpack all the stuff I brought so I can show the photographer and 10-15 minutes to fix travel worn hair/makeup. So we start shooting anywhere from 1:20-1:30, and I shoot until 3:45, at which point I pack up my things, sign the model release, and exchange money. If I'm late and don't arrive until 1:10, I shoot until 3:55 and then start packing up. If it's a local shoot, I've sometimes gone over a half hour or so, because the shoot was going well and I don't have anywhere else to be. No one has ever complained about this policy, and it's been the norm for me since I started. It's interesting to see that people don't start the clock until shooting starts, because that hasn't been my experience.

PigeonFoo wrote:
Often enough when a model shows up for a shoot (not counting shoots with teams, of course. I'm speaking of model and photographer one on one time.) there are things that need to be done after arriving but before you start snapping away.

I always like to show up with my make up on and my hair ready, but sometimes decisions are made and things need to be changed. I also know of models who like to show up fresh-faced to start and then simply do their make up on set according to the look. All understandable situations. Along with the time to get in and out of wardrobe for different looks.

What I'm asking is, for you, when do you start timing the shoot? If you book for two hours, do you count that time to fix make up and get dressed.... or do you like to start timing the shoot according to when the pictures are actually taken?

It's quite the conundrum to me, sometimes, especially in the case of models or photographers who have booked multiple shoots for a single day.

It starts at the call time.

Unlimited Boudoir wrote:

No way Jose!!

If I am paying by the hour to SHOOT she's paid from the time she comes in front of the camera ... hopefully the time I asked for.
That includes light test - you cant expect them to wait while you get the lights right etc.
Also if on location, all set up and any changes of location etc etc all counts as paid shooting time unless she's taking a too long break while we are ready and waiting it's all paid.

But NO not whatever time she arrives...
She'll need time to talk, catch her breath stretch etc. and sign paper work as well as touch up make up and review any planning for the shoot.
As soon as the on set time starts they are paid.

The clock comes off if the model takes a break, snack, cigarette or goes out for a phone call etc.

Of course if there is a team and the make up is part of the shoot you are booking her to sit for you do pay make up time.... but the OP said when no teams just you and her.

So if you ask the model to do her own makeup because you don't want to provide a MUA and she does it at your studio (because you have to approve the look, etc) the makeup time is not paid?

Tiff
www.TiffineyC.com

RKD Photographic wrote:

Ridiculous - what if the styling, make-up and hair take two or three hours?

then you should be hiring by the half/full day.

----

What's ridiculous is models and MUA's fixated on the look that they blow the actual work clock.

Certainly you want to be flexible, but schedules don't always coalesce.

Jean Renard Photography wrote:
For day bookings or less it is always:

Call time

Breaks are part of the shoot day.

For many models you also pay travel time+ expenses if they come in from afar and are not otherwise considered local talent. 

One can negotiate for multiple day bookings and travel for a flat fee as well.

In today's economy one can negotiate more than ever, but this is the basis from which it starts.

Yes! Very well put.

Tiff
www.TiffineyC.com

RKD Photographic wrote:

Ridiculous - what if the styling, make-up and hair take two or three hours?

She gets paid for the time she's there, not just the time you have a camera in your hand.

I think so too usually unless discussed and agreed on differently.  For me I love the end results of MUAH but my Lord is it uncomfortable sitting that long while they do it.

AMDG Fine Arts wrote:
I was taught that the time starts running on the model as soon as they set foot in the studio (unless they are early and are relaxing prior to the official starting time).

If the model is not supposed to show up with make-up and hair finished, then they get paid to get the MAU and Stylist and wardrobe folks to work their magic as the time starts as soon as they walk in the door of the studio.

I pay for coffee breaks, smoke breaks, lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, MUA delays, hair delays, wardrobe, sore muscle breaks, or time when they are just relaxing while the lighting or sets are being changed.

The results at the end of the day, is good shots, with happy models who want to come back and shoot again.

+1

RKD Photographic wrote:

So you don't think that 'getting ready' is part and parcel of the shoot? Would she be doing her make-up and hair in that style if it were not for you?
I've done a lot of work in other people's studios as well as my own and I've never yet seen a model not paid from the moment she arrived to begin prep for the shoot. Most models will arrive 10-15 minutes early to ensure they are ready to begin prep at the appointed time, but as long as they're in the door by the time specified, that's when the clock starts.
'Prep' for the shoot being hair and make-up.
No model I've EVER shot had perfect hair and make-up when she's arrived after travelling, often on public transport

Put it another way: would you task the MUA/stylist to go to the model's home to do the hair and make-up so she arrived at the studio ready to shoot? Of course not...

Sorry chap, but to me this is typical 'amateur' cheapness - and let's face it we're usually talking about models who charge around $30-50 an hour, so the amounts we're quibbling over are in the region of $10-15... cheap.

If the model is booked to arrive at a certain time and she arrives at that time, that is the time she gets paid from. Suck it up, FFS...

If you want a model to be there early, then maybe negotiate that in your pre-shoot communications, but most experienced models will expect to be paid for that also if it's more than 15 minutes (I charge my hourly rates in that way - an additional 15 minutes counts as the next full hour and is billed accordingly - and I expect a few of them do also).

If there's not enough time left to shoot after the model has got ready, then it's your time management that's at fault, not hers.
Assuming I book a model for four hours, then it's my responsibility to ensure those four hours are managed properly.

(similar comments from other users)

I tell my models to come as they would be any other day.  I do not use MUAs, as I don't want everything to be perfect.  I tell my models to wear foundation, eyeliner and/or mascara (at least one, not necessary both), and lipstick or semi-matte lip gloss.  I specifically request no heavy makeup, and ask them to do their hair the way that they normally would if they were going anyplace else where they wanted to look nice.

If you can't do that beforehand, I'm not paying you to do it while I wait.  I'm not talking about getting just the perfect spit curl - I'm talking about pretty regular, day-to-day stuff that you might do before you left the house any other day.

The last model I worked with was $90/hour.  She arrived more-or-less ready to go, and she had all her touch-ups done by the time I had my lights set up.  Very professional.

If I were doing something more complicated with an MUA, of course I would be paying them for that time.  But that would be time that the model is ready to work ... and in that case, 'working' involves hair and makeup.  Time spent changing is time spent working.  Time spent digging through a pile of clothes because you haven't picked out an outfit yet is not time spent working.

I stick to my original statement.  If you're not ready to work, then I'm not ready to pay you.

PigeonFoo wrote:

Wow, spoiled workers. Haha. Here in 'Merica the 10 minute breaks might be paid, but I don't believe you get one until 3 or 4 hours (Could be wrong. And, of course, every state varies) and the 30 minute breaks are UNPAID. -Edit- And, at least when I worked a few years ago where these laws applied, the 30 minute unpaid break was not even enacted until you worked 6 hours. So if you were there for 5 hours and 45 minutes and clocked out to leave - Too damn bad. No lunch break for you.

I don't need mini breaks in shoots that last under 4 hours. I'll often use changing into another look or the photographer moving lights around as a chance to catch my wind... and of course I may want to drink something but that hardly detracts from my actual modeling so I would never count it (nor want to) towards a break.

Given the way I pose and wiggle around, and how strenuous it can be on my back and legs after a while, on the rare occasion I shoot for longer than 3 or 4 hours I may want a sit down and a snack, but my sessions often don't last that long.

With this kind of attitude, could somebody please clone several versions of her and send them around?

I'll take 2.

Zack Zoll wrote:
If I were doing something more complicated with an MUA, of course I would be paying them for that time.  But that would be time that the model is ready to work ... and in that case, 'working' involves hair and makeup.  Time spent changing is time spent working.  Time spent digging through a pile of clothes because you haven't picked out an outfit yet is not time spent working.
.

That's all I'm saying too... It's just that some (other) people seem to be having difficulty understanding that.

"...time spend digging through a pile of clothes..." accounts for maybe three to five minutes (from my own experience), so not really worth worrying about.

T A Y L O R  wrote:

+1

I've now done over 100 shoots, and only one of them started the clock when we began shooting. (I didn't say anything because my day was otherwise free and it was only an extra half hour.)

When I travel, if I book a 3 hour shoot from 1:00-4:00, I get there somewhere between 12:45 and 1:00. It then takes me approximately 10-15 minutes to unpack all the stuff I brought so I can show the photographer and 10-15 minutes to fix travel worn hair/makeup. So we start shooting anywhere from 1:20-1:30, and I shoot until 3:45, at which point I pack up my things, sign the model release, and exchange money. If I'm late and don't arrive until 1:10, I shoot until 3:55 and then start packing up. If it's a local shoot, I've sometimes gone over a half hour or so, because the shoot was going well and I don't have anywhere else to be. No one has ever complained about this policy, and it's been the norm for me since I started. It's interesting to see that people don't start the clock until shooting starts, because that hasn't been my experience.

Finally we're starting to get somewhere - more models really need to be contributing here as they're the ones potentially losing out by (what I'd consider to be) unreasonable practice...