Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I think I'd remove the name of the MUA here...very quickly.

Edit: Or were you saying that few are able to work with the person you named (as a basis for excellence)?

Maybe I misunderstood because it initially sounded as if you were calling out the MUA by name.

I think he means the latter. I did not read his post thinking he named the MUA.

Death of Field wrote:
This is a TEST photo not an ad campaign.

Don't expect a high budget production from test shoots.
This includes the MUA.

You're being tested on a low production quick shot, not a high end beauty campaign.

So YES this could be done by a very professional MUA.

Sorry, a misunderstanding again!

This was a test photo for ME, as a retoucher, but the photo itself was a part of a photo shoot for a a COVER of a magazine! (And, yes, it eventually was published, but it was a few moths before I even get a chance to work on it, so only I can say/express is my deepest condolences to the other retoucher who was working on it... :sad smiley: )

LisaJohnson wrote:
... why are you showing work that is not yours then asking in a public forum ONLINE opinions?

Simply, because there are a tone of an AMAZING and ÜBER-PROFESSIONAL MUAs whose opinion is more than relevant to me and I wanted to hear it. Also, as we all know a perception differs from individual to individual due to a variety of personal, socio-economical, and cultural differences so it was the only way to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. I deliberately avoided to show my retouched version of the photo because this thread is NOT about me, as a retoucher, or some XY guy, as a photographer. This thread is simply about MAKE UP ARTISTRY and whether something is executed/done in a professional way or not. Also, I think it could help a lot of aspiring MUAs to avoid some common/beginner's mistakes and to become much more better/professional at what they do...

Zorka wrote:
Sorry for the possible misunderstanding, I never named the MUA (or so called MUA) who did this mess on the following pictures (to be honest I don't know his/her name and even if I knew it I would never do that!), I just mentioned  Path McGrath (the MUA who is exclusively work with Steven Meisel (who now rarely shoots without her), Paolo Roversi, Helmut Newton, Peter Lindbergh and to all runways/ad campaigns for Prada, Gucci, Luis Vuitton, Dolce&Gabbana, plus she has been called the most influential make-up artist in the world by Vogue magazine and other commentators) as somebody who is creme de la creme when it comes to the make-up artistry, but also stressed out that I don't expect THAT level of excellency but rather something more suitable to us, ordinary mortals, yet still professional enough to can be referred to as a PRO.

And yes, I am pretty confident with my skills but I am no willing to do somebody else's work, especially NOT in the case when that other person will eventually take the all credits for it...

***

Dear Chicchowmein, spending more than 24 hours on the mentioned photo and concealing every singe hair on the model's face (free of charge, because it was a test photo) gives me EVERY right to do whatever I want. Still, I was decent/professional enough and never mentioned a photographer's or (God forbid!) model's name, nor would never ever do such a thing...

I guess since it was trade but I would be loathe to hire a retoucher that posted an image of mine in the forums to take potshots at it  even though I doubt I would ever have anything like that get by me. Just saying if you are soliciting paid work from photographers it seems to me that would not be a good way to advertise your services.

I would think it might cause some hurt feelings at the very least. Of course you are free to do whatever you want -- it doesn't make a bit of difference to my life. I was trying to be helpful.

Just saying it wouldn't make me ever want to hire and pay for a retoucher that makes threads in a public forum to call attention to what a shoddy job whether it be the makeup artist or the photographer or what have you that someone turned out.

Seems as unprofessional and unkind to me.

And for all you know the makeup artist left or the model wiped boogers in her eyebrows.

Ultimately the photographer should have noticed how wonky the eyebrows were. That said I stand by my opinion that your posting of a photo that was not yours to call out what a shit job other people did may be true but is just as unprofessional and possibly even moreso on your part.

Discretion is the better part of valor. No one wants retouchers releasing unauthorized photos without permission so that they can make fun of them.

Death of Field wrote:
This is a TEST photo not an ad campaign.

Don't expect a high budget production from test shoots.
This includes the MUA.

You're being tested on a low production quick shot, not a high end beauty campaign.

So YES this could be done by a very professional MUA.

I completely disagree with your idea of what a test shoot is.
Tests are to make your skills even better and to better your portfolio. You should treat every test shoot the same way you'd treat a big ad campaign because, in the end, you want your BEST work out there. The best photographers, models, and makeup artists continue to test throughout their career and I would never expect Pat McGrath to put poor work out there just because it's a test shoot.


And for the OP...yes, the model needs better grooming skills. And yes, I think this is poor makeup. But I do find it quite unprofessional to post someone else's work in a negative light. We've all received really bad work from the people we work with in this industry, but it is a definite no-no to blast someone else's work, no matter how bad. If I posted every terrible picture I got back from a photographer or retoucher I'd never work in this city again.

Death of Field wrote:
This is a TEST photo not an ad campaign.

Don't expect a high budget production from test shoots.
This includes the MUA.

You're being tested on a low production quick shot, not a high end beauty campaign.

So YES this could be done by a very professional MUA.

Really?  A professional MUA would do a super sloppy job just because it was a test shoot?  Why have them there, then?

Jaime Criel Makeup wrote:

I completely disagree with your idea of what a test shoot is.
Tests are to make your skills even better and to better your portfolio. You should treat every test shoot the same way you'd treat a big ad campaign because, in the end, you want your BEST work out there. The best photographers, models, and makeup artists continue to test throughout their career and I would never expect Pat McGrath to put poor work out there just because it's a test shoot.


And for the OP...yes, the model needs better grooming skills. And yes, I think this is poor makeup. But I do find it quite unprofessional to post someone else's work in a negative light. We've all received really bad work from the people we work with in this industry, but it is a definite no-no to blast someone else's work, no matter how bad. If I posted every terrible picture I got back from a photographer or retoucher I'd never work in this city again.

X 1000

Jose Deida wrote:
So if this was a paid job, would you be whining about it ?

Once again, this thread ISN'T about me, but since you already asked, I'll satisfy your curiosity. I am in this business about a year (yes, I am still a kind of newbie ) and I guess I was extremely lucky to get to work with an amazing bunch of photographers with whom I quickly established a special and lasting rapport and working relationship.

As I already said, they all (the photographers I am working with) are a great people but unfortunately none of them are a big shot in the industry today, and being driven and ambitious as I am, I've approached a few photographers with a pretty impressive credits/references hoping that some of them would recognize my talent and give a chance to prove myself to them.

[Now I will return to my initial post and quote myself:]

Recently I got a chance to work with a new (pretty established & Vogue published) photographer and I was REALLY excited when he told me that he is sending over a photo of a (also) pretty established and a world wide famous model to be done. After I received it and assessed it, my enthusiasm suddenly waned because the last thing I expected was a model with a poor grooming habits and a sloppy makeup!

So, to finally answer your question, if it was a paid (read: a regular) job it would be:

1. charged for on a regular basis (I am charging per hour, so the more time is needed to fix it, the more money I get), without ANY complaints.

or

2. rejected (with an honest explanation that this is simply NOT a magazine's cover photo material and that I don't want to put my effort and time in something where all credits will be eventually given to some (in my opinion) not-so-professional MUA.

But it wasn't a regular job, it was my attempt to work with a big shot and to finally see/feel what it looks like working on a photography which came as a result of teamwork by a (pay attention!) PROFESSIONAL model, (pay attention)! PROFESSIONAL MUA and (pay attention!) PROFESSIONAL photographer. (The beauty of this job is that it leaves me enough time to work on images that I personally find appealing and this usually goes without any charge, which I am totally fine with!)

Once again, this thread has nothing to do with me or my work ethics (nor with YOU or your work ethics), but I must to admit that amazes me how some people always find a way to make everything about themselves, constantly projecting their inner frustrations, insecurities and fears onto somebody else.

Zorka wrote:
Once again, this thread ISN'T about me, but since you already asked, I'll satisfy your curiosity. I am in this business about a year (yes, I am still a kind of newbie ) and I guess I was extremely lucky to get to work with an amazing bunch of photographers with whom I quickly established a special and lasting rapport and working relationship.

As I already said, they all (the photographers I am working with) are a great people but unfortunately none of them are a big shot in the industry today, and being driven and ambitious as I am, I've approached a few photographers with a pretty impressive credits/references hoping that some of them would recognize my talent and give a chance to prove myself to them.

[Now I will return to my initial post and quote myself:]

Recently I got a chance to work with a new (pretty established & Vogue published) photographer and I was REALLY excited when he told me that he is sending over a photo of a (also) pretty established and a world wide famous model to be done. After I received it and assessed it, my enthusiasm suddenly waned because the last thing I expected was a model with a poor grooming habits and a sloppy makeup!

So, to finally answer your question, if it was a paid (read: a regular) job it would be:

1. charged for on a regular basis (I am charging per hour, so the more time is needed to fix it, the more money I get), without ANY complaints.

or

2. rejected (with an honest explanation that this is simply NOT a magazine's cover photo material and that I don't want to put my effort and time in something where all credits will be eventually given to some (in my opinion) not-so-professional MUA.

But it wasn't a regular job, it was my attempt to work with a big shot and to finally see/feel what it looks like working on a photography which came as a result of teamwork by a (pay attention!) PROFESSIONAL model, (pay attention)! PROFESSIONAL MUA and (pay attention!) PROFESSIONAL photographer. (The beauty of this job is that it leaves me enough time to work on images that I personally find appealing and this usually goes without any charge, which I am totally fine with!)

Once again, this thread has nothing to do with me or my work ethics (nor with YOU or your work ethics), but I must to admit that amazes me how some people always find a way to make everything about themselves, constantly projecting their inner frustrations, insecurities and fears onto somebody else.

I have no idea what you are talking about but what you did was very ( pay attention) UNPROFESSIONAL  in my opinion -- paid or not.

Not the way to get new clients period. You can take from that whatever you want.

You're the one who posted the thread and when people comment that maybe what you did wasn't kosher you throw a tantrum.

And since you were not on set you have no idea what really happened anyways.

If you thought the job wasn't worth it you should have turned it down but to post a before photo to mock the skills of the makeup artist, model, whomever is unprofessional and petty.

Geoff Jones wrote:
Wow... your attitude in regards to posting before and after is just astounding. Based on this thread, I would never hire you, no matter your skill lever or price.

:falls dead:

Your work made me lose my breath

/threadjack

Chicchowmein wrote:
If you thought the job wasn't worth it you should have turned it down but to post a before photo to mock the skills of the makeup artist, model, whomever is unprofessional and petty.

I came here to ask MUAs for their critical and professional opinion (on a posted crops), not to "mock" anyone.

P.S. It seams that you have been mocked (a lot!) when you were a kid, huh? If so, I feel for you but, as I said before, this is neither the time nor the place for anybody's personal issues...

Zorka wrote:
Dear Erlinda, THANKS for your answer, I really appreciate it.

Btw, I am aware that people here are incredibly touchy and vain, but loosing a few potential clients in exchange to get different MUAs professional opinion seams like a fear bargain to me.

I understand. All the best to you

Chicchowmein wrote:
If you thought the job wasn't worth it you should have turned it down but to post a before photo to mock the skills of the makeup artist, model, whomever is unprofessional and petty.

Zorka wrote:
I came here to ask MUAs for their critical and professional opinion (on a posted crops), not to "mock" anyone.

P.S. It seams that you have been mocked (a lot!) when you were a kid, huh? If so, I feel for you but, as I said before, this is neither the time nor the place for anybody's personal issues...

I was going to write a nice response to your thread, but after that childlike remark I don't think it even deserves it.  But the words are still in my head, so let me type them anyway, because the response deserves to be said, regardless of you.

You were hired to touch up photos.  You are a retoucher.  That is your job.  You may be a freelance worker, but you are essentially an employee.  If I were to give you photos, all I want to hear out of you is that they're done.  Once they're finished, you're welcome to make some brief suggestions on what the MUA could have done better.  But your job is to fix whatever the MUA didn't, and until you do that you haven't done your job, and I don't want to hear any griping at all from someone that hasn't done their job.  Not even a little.  It's not like this is some Herculean task - just keep your mouth shut and do it.

If I had worked with you before, and we had a good relationship, I might be okay with you posting the before and after photos, because I know that it would be a post about "us" versus the MUA.  But since I haven't, all I see is "Look at these terrible photos the photographer sent me."  And I would never hire you again.  In fact, I would probably tell you you're off the job right now, and find somebody else.

You said it yourself - you're fortunate to have been given the work.  But you are not established enough to be part of 'the team' - you're some guy that was given the work.  Keep your head down, do your job, and don't make waves.  There will be plenty of time to make waves once people know that you're not an asshole.  Until then, any wavemaking will be viewed as failure to do your job.

And hey, 'don't be an asshole' is still pretty good professional advice, so I'd take it.  In this situation, it's a hell of a lot more useful that someone telling you how you can fix the images.

Death of Field wrote:
This is a TEST photo not an ad campaign.

Don't expect a high budget production from test shoots.
This includes the MUA.

You're being tested on a low production quick shot, not a high end beauty campaign.

So YES this could be done by a very professional MUA.

Sounds like you're clueless and don't expect much from your testing team.

Zorka wrote:
I came here to ask MUAs for their critical and professional opinion (on a posted crops), not to "mock" anyone.

P.S. It seams that you have been mocked (a lot!) when you were a kid, huh? If so, I feel for you but, as I said before, this is neither the time nor the place for anybody's personal issues...

Maybe I should have posted from my makeup artist profile?

You don't know what happened on set. You weren't there. You don't know if the makeup artist left. IMO the photographer should have noticed the fall out, the eyebrows and the lips but since neither of us were there who knows what the real deal is.

One more thing. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the photographer was testing you to see how good your retouching skills really are?

Bottom  line -- what you did was unprofessional. Doesn't matter to me I just don't think it makes you look very good.


But thanks for the personal attack. I think it says more about you than it does me.

Have a wonderful day! And good luck with the retouching thing.

Zorka wrote:
Dear Erlinda, THANKS for your answer, I really appreciate it.

Btw, I am aware that people here are incredibly touchy and vain, but loosing a few potential clients in exchange to get different MUAs professional opinion seams like a fear bargain to me.

You insult the people that trusted you with this photo by posting it in public and then you insult us by name calling... I bet people are lining up to work with you    

Look closely at your quote here... You think it's worth losing a few clients to get a few Makeup opinions....   Really?    First of all..... It doesn't matter what artists think about what some other artist did... You aren't hiring artists or photographers right?   As a matter of fact, the sloppier job an artist is the more money you make....

In my opinion you should be  cheering on the sloppy work and thank God for these artists daily.  One reason artists are so sloppy is because they know people like you will clean it up....

Before Photoshop (yes I"m that old) we had to get it right the first time....  Artists in general are sloppier now...but as I said...You should be very happy about that.

Zorka wrote:
Hello guys!

Recently I got a chance to work with a new (pretty established & Vogue published) photographer and I was REALLY excited when he told me that he is sending over a photo of a (also) pretty established and a world wide famous model to be done. After I received it and assessed it, my enthusiasm suddenly waned because the last thing I expected was a model with a poor grooming habits and a sloppy makeup! However, I did my part of the job, but after suggesting the photographer to maybe start thinking of hiring a new MUA (this time a PRO! ) he told me that his MUA is a pro!

I was so caught up in the fact that you posted a photographers photos for critique that I didn't really read what you wrote.... .. You actually suggested that a Vogue Published photographer hire a "pro" artist?   If he  really is a Vogue published photographer (real Vogue the one you see in bookstores)  you were WAY out of line...Actually even if it was a wannabe Vogue photographer you were still out of line unless he asked for your opinion and something tells me he did not.

Of course, I am totally aware that only a few highly privileged photographers get a chance to work with Path McGrath, but I am also pretty sure in my aesthetic criteria and a liability to distinguish a professional work from an amateur one...

My question here is .... What makes you think you have a better eye for good makeup then a great photographer?  What do you base that on?

So, my question is: what about you? Would you makeup from a pictures bellow characterize as a professional and what is YOUR criteria when it comes to distinguish a PRO MUA from a want-to-be?

Thanks in advance, every answer/point of view will be highly appreciated...

So to answer your question...."what about you?"  " Would you makeup from a pictures bellow characterize as a professional "   ....... a Professional is someone that shows up on time, when and where they are supposed to be... With the tools they need.... A professional is someone that never speaks poorly of their fellow artists skills in public....A professional is a strong team player who lifts those around them up and tries to make everyone the best they can be at whatever they do.

Mary wrote:

Zorka wrote:
Hello guys!

Recently I got a chance to work with a new (pretty established & Vogue published) photographer and I was REALLY excited when he told me that he is sending over a photo of a (also) pretty established and a world wide famous model to be done. After I received it and assessed it, my enthusiasm suddenly waned because the last thing I expected was a model with a poor grooming habits and a sloppy makeup! However, I did my part of the job, but after suggesting the photographer to maybe start thinking of hiring a new MUA (this time a PRO! ) he told me that his MUA is a pro!

I was so caught up in the fact that you posted a photographers photos for critique that I didn't really read what you wrote.... .. You actually suggested that a Vogue Published photographer hire a "pro" artist?   If he  really is a Vogue published photographer (real Vogue the one you see in bookstores)  you were WAY out of line...Actually even if it was a wannabe Vogue photographer you were still out of line unless he asked for your opinion and something tells me he did not.

Of course, I am totally aware that only a few highly privileged photographers get a chance to work with Path McGrath, but I am also pretty sure in my aesthetic criteria and a liability to distinguish a professional work from an amateur one...

My question here is .... What makes you think you have a better eye for good makeup then a great photographer?  What do you base that on?


So to answer your question...."what about you?"  " Would you makeup from a pictures bellow characterize as a professional "   ....... a Professional is someone that shows up on time, when and where they are supposed to be... With the tools they need.... A professional is someone that never speaks poorly of their fellow artists skills in public....A professional is a strong team player who lifts those around them up and tries to make everyone the best they can be at whatever they do.

the model should have taken the time to get a wax or threading before the shoot. ffs

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Something of an own-goal OP.

And when you state you 'don't mind losing a few clients' that says everything about your attitude in general. It's an attitude that will not stand you in good stead in your future dealings.

But a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush!

Oh, wait, did I just misapply that?  No matter ... TWO!