Caveman Creations wrote:
Touch a High School Senior? Hell no, you have no idea where they've been! But all jokes aside, no I don't touch subjects unless they are really that dense, that they just don't understand what I'm asking of them. I can generally get what I want out of them by direction only.

But......

You were hired by a Senior Portrait place. They are the one's paying, so you will be the one listening, and doing what they ask. How we shoot our portraits is of no real consequence, because we didn't hire you. If this type of interaction with your subjects makes you uncomfortable (for whatever reason), you may be able to communicate that with them, but if they want you to physically put people where they want them to be, you will either have to do it, or open your own Senior Portrait place..... because you'll be out of a job! More than likely, this place will be more about the numbers of people photographed, and not the photo itself, or how you got the photo. It's the golden rule, "He who has the gold, gets to make the rules." In this case, the gold is your paycheck....

Actually it's a really small family owned studio that is very much about the photo itself (and the experience you make for them). But I have worked for big companies that just needed you to shoot volume. And yes, I know I'll have to suck it up and do what they want...I just wanted to hear that that's the norm or isn't.  I guess you pretty much have the same philosophy as I do when it comes to posing.

Marin Photography wrote:
For myself, I keep my hands to myself - I don't ever physically pose anyone. It's a matter of personal space and I don't think this place gives a shit about offending clients.

If you are paid to do it well you gotta do it I guess or you can move on. If you go through with it, communicate what you are going to do before putting your hands on anyone....

I use hand gestures or use myself as an example even if I look silly, usually good for a laugh.

I honestly don't think they ever even considered it offensive. The parents founded it and trained their kids the way they did it and everyone else (all women) who were hired were trained the same way. I don't think anyone even questioned it. I'm just a bit more new school than they are used to maybe?

Caveman Creations wrote:
You never said it was a Mom and Pop shop! The OP made it sound like you were working for Lifetouch, or something like that. Anyway....

I would venture to say that it is not the norm to touch, handle, or physically pose. But then again, everyone has their own style. There is also the gender thing, as you said, everyone there has been female. Socially, it is more ok for females to touch another person than a male. That may have a lot to do with it as well. I'm a "glass half empty" kinda guy, and can't help but to think of the one time that one particular individual will be offended by this and sue me, so I do my best to stay behind the camera. That's my main mode of thought on something like this, but like I said, I'd talk to them, and see what they have to say about it. Either way, make sure you learn everything you can, good or bad, and that will help you down the road no matter the outcome.

He explains it better...

TheScarletLetterSeries wrote:
There is a huge difference in inappropriate touching/manhandling and helping a subject to pose.

Trisha Bowyer wrote:

Actually it's a really small family owned studio that is very much about the photo itself (and the experience you make for them). But I have worked for big companies that just needed you to shoot volume. And yes, I know I'll have to suck it up and do what they want...I just wanted to hear that that's the norm or isn't.  I guess you pretty much have the same philosophy as I do when it comes to posing.

Lots of these studios churn out poses that sell. It's not really personal to the subject, it's a look/pose that is an easy seller. Making it personal just reduces sales. The point is to 'feed the machine' created by the studio (staff, building, etc).

The point of you posing the client is to expedite that process. (time is money)

Trisha F Photography wrote:
I usually don't but if their hair is out of place or something I -ask- if its okay if I can fix it. As for posing no. I don't. I usually just show the model what I want by doing the pose myself (and it also makes for a good laugh at my expense haha).

That's how I'm used to working. I guess we'll see how natural I can be at a different approach.

________________________________________________

You seem like a smart, ambitious young women.
One of the greatest Life lessons you can learn, is to walk away when the  job/situation/person doesn't feel right.

Maybe this dumb requirement is the Universe's clue that this isn't the job for you, and you need to keep looking.

Trisha Bowyer wrote:
Sorry if this has been covered. I can't find anything on this forum or any other about this particular subject.

So, I recently got hired at a senior portrait place. During training they told us they wanted us to physically pose every subject. Like squat in front of them and manhandle their heads and what not. I usually just tell them while doing the pose myself and that has worked for me for years and I only touch a client if I need to adjust hair, jewelry or clothing. My question is: is that normal? They do nice work and its obviously working for them, I just don't feel comfortable with it and wanted to ask other portrait photographers to weigh in.  I'm not at all shy or sheepish I just try and respect personal space but perhaps I've been doing it all wrong? I know there's lots of ways to get similar results and I'll have to do it the way they want it done as they are the boss. I guess I just want to hear that other people do this so I don't feel too weird about it.

Thoughts?

I've never man handled a model in my life. I'll show them the pose - act it out like a twat.

But touching them. fine line my friend

best to keep on the right side.

New Art Photo wrote:
That's how I'm used to working. I guess we'll see how natural I can be at a different approach.

________________________________________________

You seem like a smart, ambitious young women.
One of the greatest Life lessons you can learn, is to walk away when the  job/situation/person doesn't feel right.

Maybe this dumb requirement is the Universe's clue that this isn't the job for you, and you need to keep looking.

Thanks...I think? Anyhow, I haven't actually started shooting yet. I'm just training right now. I like to give things a chance before I give up. Sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is freeing, and sometimes it's hell. I don't know which way it's going to go yet.

And as far as looking for a job goes....it's painful. There aren't many available where I am and the ones that are I refuse to entertain (Shooting in a k-mart? I just can't make myself do it). This particular place is nice, produce nice work and the people seem pretty cool. I think I might actually learn how to successfully run a business among other things. If I don't learn anything, the environment isn't what I was looking for or something unsavory happens then I will figure out plan B. I'd still probably work out the season anyway. It's just my nature to finish what I start, even if it's just one season.

TheScarletLetterSeries wrote:
There is a huge difference in inappropriate touching/manhandling and helping a subject to pose.

ontherocks wrote:
i've seen plenty of posts from models who would seem to feel otherwise. and that has made me shy away from any touching. then again going for your senior portraits in the mall isn't the same as being a model, especially a nude one.

Posts on MM from models has nothing to do with a thread that is dedicated to professional portrait photographers. Even in glamour and boudoir work, clients know the difference in a gentle touch to help a client to pose and manhandling as TSL stated.

I have been taught by many long time professional portrait and commission photographers that a pinki as mentioned or using the back of your hand is also acceptable.

Cherrystone wrote:
You're comparing apples to oranges here.....shooting at a mom & pop portrait studio, then asking for opinions in the hallowed halls of MM.

Do you want the job? Do as your bosses ask. I'd seriously doubt if more than one client there, if that, ever complained.

I doubt it as well. Most likely zero complaints. Like I said, it's obviously working for them.

And yeah, I know senior portraits questions on a model site might seem a bit misplaced but I know a lot of the photographers on here pay their bills with everything from portrait work to weddings and I thought it couldn't hurt too much to ask. I've read enough of the 'don't touch the models or else' threads on here which is why I tried to emphasis that this was a horse of a different color entirely.

Trisha Bowyer wrote:
I doubt it as well. Most likely zero complaints. Like I said, it's obviously working for them.

And yeah, I know senior portraits questions on a model site might seem a bit misplaced but I know a lot of the photographers on here pay their bills with everything from portrait work to weddings and I thought it couldn't hurt too much to ask. I've read enough of the 'don't touch the models or else' threads on here which is why I tried to emphasis that this was a horse of a different color entirely.

There are a few of us who run full studios and do boudoir/portrait and such.

TrianglePhoto wrote:
30 years ago, when I worked shooting portraits, that is how I was taught.. gently guide the subject to the correct pose, moving chin, hands, shoulders, etc...

It is a technique I abandoned years ago, although, on that very rare occasion when I'm working with a subject that has difficulty finding the angle I'm directing them too, I'll fall back to it an gently make the final adjustments.

However, then as now, I always asked before touching anybody.

So, it's just an old school technique. That's kind of what I thought. I guess I just wondered if I was right and if people were still doing it.

Thanks everyone for your insights and opinions.

New Art Photo wrote:
[
Personally, If I were young, I would do photography at KMart
in a heartbeat. What a experience that would be!-- even if you only did it for six months. Talk about Avant Garde.

LOL. Indeed...if one could last 6 months there.

Trisha Bowyer wrote:

I doubt it as well. Most likely zero complaints. Like I said, it's obviously working for them.

And yeah, I know senior portraits questions on a model site might seem a bit misplaced but I know a lot of the photographers on here pay their bills with everything from portrait work to weddings and I thought it couldn't hurt too much to ask. I've read enough of the 'don't touch the models or else' threads on here which is why I tried to emphasis that this was a horse of a different color entirely.

It is a different color horse, but most of your answers on here will look like the same old nag.

Trisha Bowyer wrote:
Sorry if this has been covered. I can't find anything on this forum or any other about this particular subject.

So, I recently got hired at a senior portrait place. During training they told us they wanted us to physically pose every subject. Like squat in front of them and manhandle their heads and what not. I usually just tell them while doing the pose myself and that has worked for me for years and I only touch a client if I need to adjust hair, jewelry or clothing. My question is: is that normal? They do nice work and its obviously working for them, I just don't feel comfortable with it and wanted to ask other portrait photographers to weigh in.  I'm not at all shy or sheepish I just try and respect personal space but perhaps I've been doing it all wrong? I know there's lots of ways to get similar results and I'll have to do it the way they want it done as they are the boss. I guess I just want to hear that other people do this so I don't feel too weird about it.

Thoughts?

I the early 90's sexual harrassment and sensitivity in the workplace were a hot topic.

I did a lot of corporate training in an unrelated subject and there was a woman I taught with who when it came to a certain part would specifically pair men and women together for an exercise that required straddling each other. Everyone else kept it same gender to avoid making people uncomfortable.

The interesting thing was that there was something about this woman that made people fell totally comfortable and there were never any complaints and what she did (people complained about all sorts of tiny little things).

Some people have a way about them and it just works. Some people interact with the world through their ears, some with their eyes and some through touch. Your employer is probably one of the last ones and they probably find it important for themselves to have physical contact as it's part of how they bond with the subject.

If you were to do it while feeling uncomfortable, that would probably show and pass along the discomfort. I think that you should not touch them unless you a very comfortable doing it. As long as the photos come out good, it's not going to matter.

If you're considering it, I think you should watch your employer very carefully to see how they do it. If they are turning the person's chin, I'd watch everything else they do and ignore that. They may be changing their posture in a communicative way. They may be touching the subject's shoulder with their other hand - shoulder touches are often reassuring or sympathetic gestures. They may be unconsciously doing things that make the subject comfortable with being touched.

There are all sorts of appropriate physical contact with strangers - medical examinations, currying off and removing clothing in emergencies, massage, sports lessons. Touch is not by definition inappropriate. It may not be common in photography as a whole,  but that doesn't make it inappropriate if it's done right.

The biggest mistake you could make is doing something you're not comfortable with.

Guss W wrote:
Most senior operations are set up for efficiency, and guiding them into the basic poses with a little physical help speeds things up.  Each situation needs to be sized up for risks, though.  Being a female may have been a factor in your being chosen.  If this is an established family studio, they may have been shooting these kids since they were babies, and trust may already be established.

Personally, I only do it at weddings where people are a little dazed and tend to confuse their left and right.  There are witnesses all around, so I'm not going to get accused of anything.

Just the risk of being accused of shooting weddings