K E E L I N G wrote:

Unfortunately quarterbacking isn't one of those skills.  Tim Tebow was simply managing the game, not affecting it.  The Broncos defense is what got them where they were... it was despite Tebow not because of him.

I watched a pitiful Trent Dilfer when he played for the Bucs, and he has a Super Bowl ring, with a Defensively-minded Ravens, by simply "managing" the game. While I admired the play of Brad Johnson, it is not like he had a HOF career, but he "managed" to lead the Bucs to a Super Bowl championship, that Buccaneers team was ALL about defense. If a team is predicated on defense, you need a QB to "manage" games. Winning games 17-7 may not be pretty, but it is effective.

Orca Bay Images wrote:

Well, he cleared waivers. They didn't snag him. Not even for nothing.

If he hadn't cleared waivers, teams would still have had to pick up the remaining balance of his Jets contract. This was smart for all teams from a financial situation. Who would have wanted to pick up the money the idiot Jets signed him for?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--why-d … 40803.html

Will Snizek wrote:

Tebow didn't exactly treat the Jets with class with his refusal to practice some weeks last season.  The Jets also shopped trades for him right up to the draft and found no interest.  There's nothing classless about what they did.  They were hoping to get a late round pick for him.

He never refused to play...and I guess this reporter has it wrong as well...
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--why-d … 40803.html

If you could, please post just one credible link on this thread that quotes anyone from the Jets saying he refused to play...

Will Snizek wrote:
The Broncos defense got hardly any credit that year when they kept them in every game they won.  The miracle TD pass against a depleted Steelers defense was actually not that great of a pass.  The receiver made that play happen.  We all saw what happened when Tebow faced the Patriots after that and the Patriots had a pretty average defense that year.  Bragging about beating up on a Pittsburgh team that was depleted with injuries isn't saying much.  Tebow would have never beat the Steelers team from a year or two before that game.  I'm a Steelers fan and I knew they would lose in the playoffs that year against any team they played.

Say what you want about the style but this isn't the NCAA D-I Football where style-points matter, a win in the NFL is a win. It doesn't matter if they win ugly or its a blowout or if the other (pretty much) screws up & hands them that win.

Good Lord, just ask any NY Giant fan who had to suffer through the cardiac-inducing 2011 season where they lost 5 of their last 8.

Farenell Photography wrote:
Say what you want about the style but this isn't the NCAA D-I Football where style-points matter, a win in the NFL is a win. It doesn't matter if they win ugly or its a blowout or if the other (pretty much) screws up & hands them that win.

A win is a win is a win, but only a fool of a GM ignores whose play is truly responsible for a win. There were a few games in which Tebow played a pivotal role and there were games in which the defense stuffed the opponent long enough for a stumbling Tebow-led offense to eke out a touchdown for the win.

Farenell Photography wrote:

Say what you want about the style but this isn't the NCAA D-I Football where style-points matter, a win in the NFL is a win. It doesn't matter if they win ugly or its a blowout or if the other (pretty much) screws up & hands them that win.

Good Lord, just ask any NY Giant fan who had to suffer through the cardiac-inducing 2011 season where they lost 5 of their last 8.

But they have a legit elite level nfl qube that helped get them through that spell,and basicly
Carried them on his back...
Tebow could never have overcome what the Giants were for most of 2011,a team who could not run the ball or stop anybody

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

I watched a pitiful Trent Dilfer when he played for the Bucs, and he has a Super Bowl ring, with a Defensively-minded Ravens, by simply "managing" the game. While I admired the play of Brad Johnson, it is not like he had a HOF career, but he "managed" to lead the Bucs to a Super Bowl championship, that Buccaneers team was ALL about defense. If a team is predicated on defense, you need a QB to "manage" games. Winning games 17-7 may not be pretty, but it is effective.

Not nearly as effective as Jim McMahon's 46-10 win in the 85 Super Bowl for the defensive minded Bears.

The point is a great defensive team can get into the playoffs and maybe struggle to a Super Bowl win with a game manager at QB... or they can basically have a party all day and become a team of legend with a good Quarterback.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:
If he hadn't cleared waivers, teams would still have had to pick up the remaining balance of his Jets contract. This was smart for all teams from a financial situation. Who would have wanted to pick up the money the idiot Jets signed him for?

And now that teams are free to negotiate new terms with him, I can see the line is building for teams scrambling to sign him. There's the Omaha Beef ($75/week) and...

:sound of crickets:

Farenell Photography wrote:

Say what you want about the style but this isn't the NCAA D-I Football where style-points matter, a win in the NFL is a win. It doesn't matter if they win ugly or its a blowout or if the other (pretty much) screws up & hands them that win.

Good Lord, just ask any NY Giant fan who had to suffer through the cardiac-inducing 2011 season where they lost 5 of their last 8.

Even if it isn't about style you still don't want to go into the next season knowing you have to win ugly because your QB is a weak link... you go out and improve yourself at the position.  The Broncos did that with Manning.

K E E L I N G wrote:
Not nearly as effective as Jim McMahon's 46-10 win in the 85 Super Bowl for the defensive minded Bears.

The point is a great defensive team can get into the playoffs and maybe struggle to a Super Bowl win with a game manager at QB... or they can basically have a party all day and become a team of legend with a good Quarterback.

And the Bucs won 48-21 against a team that were 4 point favorites. But they got to the game with Defense. But then again...a win is still a win

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:
Let me posit this question to all of my fellow photographers...

You have professional scouts and GM's watching tape of Tebow's 4  years at Florida. He gets drafted as a QB. Then the Jets get into a bidding war for him to bring him to New York as either a backup or challenge another USC bust at QB (Sanchez). Then the Jets contend he doesn't have the skills to play in the NFL and has to play another position.

Now let's take this to a photography level.

As a photographer, you have your work posted here and probably on your own website. An Art Director sees your body of work and hires you to do a photo shoot. When you get to the shoot, the Art Director says, "you know what? you don't have the skills we are looking for, so instead of shooting, we would like you to walk around with this clipboard and get releases signed, and maybe you can hold this light."

If anyone can tell me with a straight face that they would be happy in that situation, I will tell anyone they are not a true professional photographer.

Are you saying someone should care that Tim Tebow is upset?  Hundreds of people who can't cut the mustard get released every year from the NFL.

Farenell Photography wrote:

Say what you want about the style but this isn't the NCAA D-I Football where style-points matter, a win in the NFL is a win. It doesn't matter if they win ugly or its a blowout or if the other (pretty much) screws up & hands them that win.

Good Lord, just ask any NY Giant fan who had to suffer through the cardiac-inducing 2011 season where they lost 5 of their last 8.

Sure a win is a win, but that doesn't mean Tebow won the games for them.  The defense and a few key offensive players stepped up and kept him in the game for long enough for Tebow to pull off an infrequent good pass.  If Tebow had actually won games for the Broncos, he'd still be on the team.  Teams aren't in business to lose and it was a smart move to snag Manning and give the team a few more years to find the next QB.  They knew Tebow wasn't ever going to be the future.  You can't get far in the playoffs playing the way he does.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:
Let me posit this question to all of my fellow photographers...

You have professional scouts and GM's watching tape of Tebow's 4  years at Florida. He gets drafted as a QB. Then the Jets get into a bidding war for him to bring him to New York as either a backup or challenge another USC bust at QB (Sanchez). Then the Jets contend he doesn't have the skills to play in the NFL and has to play another position.

Now let's take this to a photography level.

As a photographer, you have your work posted here and probably on your own website. An Art Director sees your body of work and hires you to do a photo shoot. When you get to the shoot, the Art Director says, "you know what? you don't have the skills we are looking for, so instead of shooting, we would like you to walk around with this clipboard and get releases signed, and maybe you can hold this light."

If anyone can tell me with a straight face that they would be happy in that situation, I will tell anyone they are not a true professional photographer.

Analogy fail.

This isn't about Tebow being happy with being benched in NY. This is about Tebow being viewed as NFL-caliber QB material by anybody in the league. We as photographers are free to go elsewhere if one art director thinks we don't measure up. But it appears the opinion on Tebow is unanimous among all art directors pro football GMs.

While we as photographers can go elsewhere or even go solo, Tebow has no such options. No one wants him and last time I checked, football's not a solo sport.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

And the Bucs won 48-21 against a team that were 4 point favorites. But they got to the game with Defense. But then again...a win is still a win

And only a fool would claim that the Buc QB decided the game.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

And the Bucs won 48-21 against a team that were 4 point favorites. But they got to the game with Defense. But then again...a win is still a win

Trent Dilfer is a much better quarterback than Tim Tebow.  The Broncos basically had a gimmick playing QB for them.  The Jets took a chance with Tebow but he couldn't win the job.

I'm not sure why this is even a debate.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:
Let me posit this question to all of my fellow photographers...

You have professional scouts and GM's watching tape of Tebow's 4  years at Florida. He gets drafted as a QB. Then the Jets get into a bidding war for him to bring him to New York as either a backup or challenge another USC bust at QB (Sanchez). Then the Jets contend he doesn't have the skills to play in the NFL and has to play another position.

Now let's take this to a photography level.

As a photographer, you have your work posted here and probably on your own website. An Art Director sees your body of work and hires you to do a photo shoot. When you get to the shoot, the Art Director says, "you know what? you don't have the skills we are looking for, so instead of shooting, we would like you to walk around with this clipboard and get releases signed, and maybe you can hold this light."

If anyone can tell me with a straight face that they would be happy in that situation, I will tell anyone they are not a true professional photographer.

None of the professional scouts thought Tebow was 1st round material.  Most experts thought he'd be more of a 3rd or 4th round pick and still a project to work on in those rounds.  The Broncos ex coach pushed the issue with Tebow and that's why Tebow was drafted so high.  We've all seen where the coach's career has gone from there.  The Jets picked him up because the Jets love media attention and thought they might be able to use him in special packages.  After seeing him practice, they realized they weren't working with much.

K E E L I N G wrote:

Trent Dilfer is a much better quarterback than Tim Tebow.  The Broncos basically had a gimmick playing QB for them.  The Jets took a chance with Tebow but he couldn't win the job.

I'm not sure why this is even a debate.

Trent Dilfer was leagues better than Tebow.  There's absolutely no comparison.  Dilfer was certainly not a "great" QB but he was competent at the position.

Will Snizek wrote:

None of the professional scouts thought Tebow was 1st round material.  Most experts thought he'd be more of a 3rd or 4th round pick and still a project to work on in those rounds.  The Broncos ex coach pushed the issue with Tebow and that's why Tebow was drafted so high.  We've all seen where the coach's career has gone from there.  The Jets picked him up because the Jets love media attention and thought they might be able to use him in special packages.  After seeing him practice, they realized they weren't working with much.

The Broncos coach that drafted him, Josh McDaniels...you mean the Josh McDaniels that is the Offensive Coordinator and QB coach of the Patriots. Yeah, his career is totally in the toilet. Coaching under Bill Belichick and working with Tom Brady must really be a step down...

BTW,  McDaniels was fired for going 5-17 after starting 2009 on a 6-0 run. Also, he botched the trade with the Patriots for Matt Cassell, when  crybaby Cutler said he didn't trust his coach anymore, oh, and for Spygate II. But it was all about the Tebow pick...yeah that's it...

Orca Bay Images wrote:

And only a fool would claim that the Buc QB decided the game.

Never claimed Johnson won the game...

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

Never claimed Johnson won the game...

You sure seemed to be spreading the credit pretty uniformly with "a win is a win is a win."

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

The Broncos coach that drafted him, Josh McDaniels...you mean the Josh McDaniels that is the Offensive Coordinator and QB coach of the Patriots. Yeah, his career is totally in the toilet. Coaching under Bill Belichick and working with Tom Brady must really be a step down...

BTW,  McDaniels was fired for going 5-17 after starting 2009 on a 6-0 run. Also, he botched the trade with the Patriots for Matt Cassell, when  crybaby Cutler said he didn't trust his coach anymore, oh, and for Spygate II. But it was all about the Tebow pick...yeah that's it...

Gee I wonder why the Patriots were the only team in the league interested in him? Maybe because Belicheat and him like cheating.  No team with class would take McDaniels.

Orca Bay Images wrote:

You sure seemed to be spreading the credit pretty uniformly with "a win is a win is a win."

The credit should go out uniformly...That is my entire point to this. A win no matter how ugly or uninspired is still a win.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

The Broncos coach that drafted him, Josh McDaniels...you mean the Josh McDaniels that is the Offensive Coordinator and QB coach of the Patriots. Yeah, his career is totally in the toilet. Coaching under Bill Belichick and working with Tom Brady must really be a step down...

BTW,  McDaniels was fired for going 5-17 after starting 2009 on a 6-0 run. Also, he botched the trade with the Patriots for Matt Cassell, when  crybaby Cutler said he didn't trust his coach anymore, oh, and for Spygate II. But it was all about the Tebow pick...yeah that's it...

McDaniel encountered the Peter Principle as head coach of the Broncos. He'll find work again and again as a coordinator, but his gross mismanagement of the Broncos pretty much doomed him as HC material. Drafting Tebow so high was one of his greatest gaffes. Mishandling Cutler was another.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

The credit should go out uniformly..

Bullshit.

Will Snizek wrote:
Sure a win is a win, but that doesn't mean Tebow won the games for them.

A quarterback doesn't HAVE TO win the game for his team, he just has to NOT LOSE IT for them.

Just ask Mark Sanchez or Tony Romo.

Will Snizek wrote:

Gee I wonder why the Patriots were the only team in the league interested in him? Maybe because Belicheat and him like cheating.  No team with class would take McDaniels.

Dude...If you want to debate, at least stay on point. You inferred that McDaniels' career is on the toilet because of the Tebow pick. I pointed out that McDaniels is still in the NFL as an O/C QB coach. Are you certain, absolutely positive, that no other team wanted to hire McDaniels? You can say that for a fact? Hmmmmmmm....

Orca Bay Images wrote:

Bullshit.

Really? Why shouldn't credit go out uniformly in a team sport?

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

The credit should go out uniformly...That is my entire point to this. A win no matter how ugly or uninspired is still a win.

On a personal team level that is true.  But do you think that after that win is gathered and the praise distributed that the team should make moves that make them better the next season?

If the answer is yes.... would you exchange Tim Tebow for Peyton Manning?

Farenell Photography wrote:

A quarterback doesn't HAVE TO win the game for his team, he just has to NOT LOSE IT for them.

Just ask Mark Sanchez or Tony Romo.

EXACTLY...I hate to bring up the Bills, but they had Jim Kelly. Great QB that went to the Super Bowl 4 straight years, but they never won it. I'll take a Super Bowl with a crappy QB over a great QB and no Super Bowl wins. ANYDAY

K E E L I N G wrote:
The Jets took a chance with Tebow but he couldn't win the job.

Pretty hard to win the job when the coach refused to play ANY quarterback besides his Golden Boy (not Tebow, not the then 3rd string backup, not the 4th-string emergency backup they had on the roster) even in meaningless, nothing preseason games.

K E E L I N G wrote:
Even if it isn't about style you still don't want to go into the next season knowing you have to win ugly because your QB is a weak link... you go out and improve yourself at the position.  The Broncos did that with Manning.

Yet the Manning Broncos got no further in the playoff than the Tebow Broncos.

If you wanted to nit-pick, you could say that the Tebow-led Broncos had a better win-percentage (.500) than the Manning-led Broncos (.000).

K E E L I N G wrote:

On a personal team level that is true.  But do you think that after that win is gathered and the praise distributed that the team should make moves that make them better the next season?

If the answer is yes.... would you exchange Tim Tebow for Peyton Manning?

WAIT!!! I have never once said in this forum that Tebow is better than Manning. I thought it was a great signing for the Broncos. My frustration is in all the people that say Tebow cant play in the NFL. He has a better career QBR than Sanchez, better record than Sanchez, and for a guy that cannot throw, his TD-INT ratio is better than Sanchez's.

Farenell Photography wrote:

Yet the Manning Broncos got no further in the playoff than the Tebow Broncos.

If you wanted to nit-pick, you could say that the Tebow-led Broncos had a better win-percentage (.500) than the Manning-led Broncos (.000).

It's really not fair to compare playoff wins when Manning faced a much tougher defense.  Pittsburgh was already in a major decline when Tebow played them.  Tebow might have been absolutely destroyed last season in the playoffs if he had been starting for Denver.  We'll never know, but I think it's safe to say I'd rather have Manning in a wheelchair at QB over a healthy Tebow.

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

WAIT!!! I have never once said in this forum that Tebow is better than Manning. I thought it was a great signing for the Broncos. My frustration is in all the people that say Tebow cant play in the NFL. He has a better career QBR than Sanchez, better record than Sanchez, and for a guy that cannot throw, his TD-INT ratio is better than Sanchez's.

Comparing him favorably to Sanchez does not say much

Farenell Photography wrote:

Yet the Manning Broncos got no further in the playoff than the Tebow Broncos.

If you wanted to nit-pick, you could say that the Tebow-led Broncos had a better win-percentage (.500) than the Manning-led Broncos (.000).

Ok, I give up!  Tim Tebow is a better quarterback than Peyton Manning and any team would be a fool to go into a season with Manning at QB instead of Tebow.

I am officially a convert!

E WALTER LEWIS wrote:

WAIT!!! I have never once said in this forum that Tebow is better than Manning. I thought it was a great signing for the Broncos. My frustration is in all the people that say Tebow cant play in the NFL. He has a better career QBR than Sanchez, better record than Sanchez, and for a guy that cannot throw, his TD-INT ratio is better than Sanchez's.

He can't!  He isn't!  He's jobless!

GK photo wrote:
the "league" isn't out to get tebow. if he could play, believe me, some team would ride the hype all the way to the bank, as would the guys at 345 park ave. plenty of great college talent never make it in the bigs. it just happens.

EXACTLY. Hype only goes so far until you then have to actually have to be a team player, deliver on the hype, or both. Tebow can't do any of those things. Just because he was a great QB in college does not mean he's going to be a great player in the NFL...people really tend to forget that. But Teboy's hype didn't come from his great performances as a QB, it came from all that stupid praying he did on the field (as if THAT were original). That's what got him his launch to fame, not his actual athleticism on the field. I can assure you, there are massive amounts of people out there who could't even tell you what team Tebow played on but they all know what "Doing a Tebow" means.

So his star fades and the league is looking for someone to fill his hype-shoes and along comes Kaepernick on the 49ers with his tattoos and his kissing his biceps and all that. The only difference between the two is that Tebow is a acting like a primadonna pain in the ass who isn't delivering his team anywhere and Kaepernick is working hard in the off season, working well with the team, and oh yeah, delivered his team to the Super Bowl last year.

Hype like Tebow only gets  you noticed. After that, it's up to you to deliver and Tebow has been spending more time reading his own hype than he has actually doing what the hype says he should.

Shot By Adam wrote:

EXACTLY. Hype only goes so far until you then have to actually have to be a team player, deliver on the hype, or both. Tebow can't do any of those things. Just because he was a great QB in college does not mean he's going to be a great player in the NFL...people really tend to forget that. But Teboy's hype didn't come from his great performances as a QB, it came from all that stupid praying he did on the field (as if THAT were original). That's what got him his launch to fame, not his actual athleticism on the field. I can assure you, there are massive amounts of people out there who could't even tell you what team Tebow played on but they all know what "Doing a Tebow" means.

So his star fades and the league is looking for someone to fill his hype-shoes and along comes Kaepernick on the 49ers with his tattoos and his kissing his biceps and all that. The only difference between the two is that Tebow is a acting like a primadonna pain in the ass who isn't delivering his team anywhere and Kaepernick is working hard in the off season, working well with the team, and oh yeah, delivered his team to the Super Bowl last year.

Hype like Tebow only gets  you noticed. After that, it's up to you to deliver and Tebow has been spending more time reading his own hype than he has actually doing what the hype says he should.

I don't really doubt that Tebow isn't putting in the work... he just isn't good enough.  Kaepernick is an NFL level QB, Tebow is a college level QB.

K E E L I N G wrote:
I don't really doubt that Tebow isn't putting in the work... he just isn't good enough.  Kaepernick is an NFL level QB, Tebow is a college level QB.

Fair enough. But the primadonna attitude with Tebow needs to go. His ego got shot into the stratosphere because of all the hype on him with his little prayers on the field. What he doesn't realize is that to justify an ego like his, it usually needs to stem from actually delivering his team to greatness, not for being an Internet meme.