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How many images??
I recently read a post from a model who stated that in any TF shoot she wants ALL of the images or else it is not worth her time. Is this a common position for a model to take? If a shoot lasts two hours, there clearly could be hundreds of images made during that period. I have thought that 2-3 'per look' retouched images is typically customary, but I am curious particularly from models what the general expectation may be related to this topic. Apr 27 17 09:58 am Link 1 to 2 edited images per look is plenty. I will just skip her. Obviously, she must be a newbie.  Apr 27 17 10:04 am Link Nobody needs ALL of the images and displaying every image from a photoset is pointless for most people. A couple/few from each look is plenty. More if there were some spectacular images or an expansive concept. I did appreciate when I could see them all and pick the images I wanted retouched, because what I needband what the photographer needs can be two different things. Seeing the entire shoot was educational, so I could see what worked well and what didn't, in terms of pose, expression, etc. If I didn't get them all... Oh well. Truth be told, getting anything from a TF shoot is pretty stellar these days. Apr 27 17 03:16 pm Link I typically give the model 20 to 30 images from a 3 hour shoot where i typically shoot 300 images. I also complete them within two to three days. Apr 27 17 03:30 pm Link Risen Phoenix Photo wrote: You are such a good man. Apr 27 17 04:39 pm Link I like to spoil the models that I work with, and give them a ton of images  Apr 27 17 05:34 pm Link That is typical of newbies; experienced models, not so much. After they get a little experience under their belt, they tend to realize that one Great Image ™ is a millions times better than thousands of mediocre ones, and that it is better if YOU waste your time finding that one than that they waste their time doing it. The best models I've ever worked with always said something like "spare me the search, just send me the best of the lot." Apr 27 17 05:56 pm Link I've asked for all of the images in situations where I do not expect a retouched image. Many times the shooter and I disagree on what shots were the best, so I like to have the option to select and re touch what I like. That being said, I share the final product with the shooter to make sure they're OK with the final product bearing their name in the credits. I don't see a problem with this arrangement. Apr 27 17 07:22 pm Link I like to send a fair number-- like Risen Phoenix (though not nearly as good!)-- but it's more like 2 weeks than 2-3 days....... I send in "Mayhem resolution" -- 800 pixel wide, BTW. But, I have provided full res to models who have asked. Apr 27 17 07:44 pm Link I provide all web optimized images for the models I work with, and 3-5 full res, all within 2 weeks. On occasion, I have been known to even provide an 11x14, if I think it was truly outstanding. Apr 28 17 07:57 am Link Apr 28 17 08:20 am Link Thank you everyone who has provided input! Apr 28 17 08:48 am Link I'm not stingy with pics and like to make sure that the model is happy (repeat TFP business!). I typically provide them with a handful of edited pictures within a day of the shoot (usually the same day), and I upload unedited, lo-res, watermarked thumbnails to Dropbox of all pics (after weeding out the obvious rejects) for them to review and pick out 20-40 pics, depending on how many looks we had. My wife and I shoot a lot, so we need to be fast with our edits or we'd get behind, so that keeps the models happy. Apr 28 17 08:52 am Link I give the model all the images, unfinished, for study and selection purposes (as spelled out in our agreement) on a CD or via Dropbox, and then give her as many finished images as I bother to finish, sized for both printing and web posting the same way. I also include in our agreement the opportunity to withhold from publication, any picture that exceeds the boundaries set in our agreement (nipslips for example). The principle here is that if our contribution to the images is approximately equal in value (the basis for TFP in the first place, IMHO) then the resulting images should be equal as well. In a few cases, it has been the snake that turns around and bites me, but all in all it has worked well for both sides. If nothing else, I am satisfied that I've avoided a ton of problems by turning down anyone who can't agree with these terms. All IMHO as always, of course. Apr 28 17 11:35 am Link CharlieMW wrote: If you DON"T like the work of the the photographer or DON"T trust his or her judgement, don't work with them. Why waste your time and their time. Apr 28 17 11:55 am Link I am not surprised when amateurs make up rules about how they want photo shoots to be conducted, but it never means you have to agree. After years of shoots, I have a written policy for test shoots to get the best results and I don't change it unless you are a paying client. For test shoots I provide the good photos watermarked with "proof" across them in a Dropbox gallery for the model to pick 5-10 for final editing. I pick my own favorites for editing for my portfolio. Apr 29 17 12:20 am Link Loki Studio wrote: Honestly, this is the best way to go about it. Everybody gets what they need, none of the unfortunate shots see the light of day and everybody's happy. Apr 29 17 03:02 am Link Loki Studio wrote: I did that in the past with a large watermark across the proof photos fro them th choose their final picks for editing.. They don't care, they still post all over the internet totally disregard your instruction. Apr 29 17 07:23 am Link I give them 2 retouches of their choice and usually 2 to 4 of my choice. I spend like an hour on each retouch so I'm not about to retouch 15 to 20 very similar images when in reality models mostly need 1 to 2 great shots from a shoot. When I send the proofs I watermark them with "yajhil alvarez photography, proof image, not for use" and I size the images to about 600 pixels at 72 dpi. That way they can view them just fine but if they try to be sneaky by cropping it and then posting it (A) it will look like crap and (B) the watermark will still be there and they will end up making themselves look bad. With that said, after a few years of experience I've realized that even though there are models that will try to take advantage of a situation and don't care about anyone other than themselves, there are tons of models that simply wanna see proofs because it shows them what they are doing when it comes to posing and facial expressions so it helps them grow. I'm personally against people retouching my pictures because to me it's like, then why did you shoot with me? My work should look like my work and no matter how good someone is at photoshopping your images are not going to look like mine because we are not the same person. In the end though it's all about what you are comfortable with while also keeping in mind that the other person should get something fair in return too. That's why I'm like ok i get this, you get that, if you don't like it someone else will and that's it. Just do whatever you are comfortable with and don't let people take advantage because they will and you will find yourself retouching pictures of one shoot for an entire year lol. Apr 29 17 10:16 am Link Connor Photography wrote: Its called collaboration for a reason. Often times, the differences of opinion don't show until after the product is complete, so the "don't work with them" is closing the barn door after the cows have gotten out. Since you have been kind enough to point out the problem with many models, I'll point out the problem with many photographers is they get fixated on one aspect of the model and often ignore the rest of the image. I cant tell you how many times I've looked at images the photographer thought was fine, because my boobs were in perfect focus or frame, but the top of my head was chopped off or my face was out of focus. Apr 29 17 04:57 pm Link CharlieMW wrote: This. Or horribly photoshopped to the point that it could be a photo of anyone. What the photographer needs and what the model needs can be two completely different things. Models and photographers are selling two different services. Apr 29 17 05:25 pm Link You wouldn't ask the chef to put all the ingredients of their kitchen into your meal, why is this any different! Apr 29 17 05:30 pm Link Normally I like to discus a photo session ahead of time. Apr 29 17 05:44 pm Link I upload the selects to Dropbox watermarked with "Sample Proof" across. Then, have them give me their top 5. After I deliver those, they can ask for another batch, and so so on. This gets them the images they like quicker. For my purposes, I have all the time in the world. Apr 30 17 01:46 am Link This is one reason why I like pre-shoot meetings... so that we can discuss this sort of details. In my case, my usual modus operandi is: 1. 1-2 days after the shoot I put on dropbox all images that have survived the first cull (that removes technically wrong or otherwise useless photos) in JPEG format, as-is out of the camera with no post processing, full size no watermarks. This is usually some 100's of images 2. during the next 1-2 weeks I will filter them down to 10-20 images, depending on quality, number of looks / models and publication hopes. During this time I accept feedback from team members that may or may not influence the final selection. The "voting power" of team members essentially depends on their contribution to the idea and setting up of the shoot. 3. once the final selection is done I share it on dropbox (as-is again) and then send them to a retoucher - this costs me so that's one reason to keep numbers down. I use 2 retouchers (at different costs) and I decide which one for each set, unless someone contributes to the costs of retouching 4. when the photos are ready I share the edited images full size no watermarks with all team members (including agents where applicable) with instructions about whether they can be posted immediately or not (depending on publication hopes) - this may take anything from a week to a month, depending on the retoucher's schedule and the number of photos... if there is a publication involved usually 2-3 months are added before images can be shared 5. if a team member insists on having other photos done I share the RAW files with them so that they can get them retouched at their own cost All of this is explained beforehand. In a couple of occasions we had some unsolvable friction over the final selection and at that point me and the other contributing members (usually designer / stylists) put down the brakes and go forward with our selection. Once I had an issue with point #5: the retouched images were so bad that I had to ask the designer to remove my tag from the photos on Instagram. But in the vast majority of cases this has always worked well for everyone involved. Roberto May 01 17 08:15 am Link I'm assuming she meant she wanted all of the unretouched images back...not that she wanted any photographer who she traded with to retouch hundreds of photos and send them to her! That would be pretty absurd. I often prefer the model of trade shoots where the photographer sends me their favorites in Dropbox or Smugmug, and I choose 5-10 of my favorites for them to retouch...but it's a collaboration, not a "Mina party," so if a photographer has a different way that they like to do it, I will be flexible. Perhaps in time this model will learn that trade shoots are a little like a "grab bag," where you never know exactly what you will get, but you are often pleasantly surprised. May 04 17 03:46 pm Link After a shoot, I download the shots to my computer and have the model go through all of them, that way she gets to see what worked and what didn't. I then let her select about a dozen that I will retouch for her. Giving a model all of the shots means that she may "edit" the shots herself to her own standards (which may not be the same as yours). These shots would then be passed off as "your" work, without you having the final say so as to how your work will be presented. If a model insists, just say "Thanks, but no thanks" and walk away. May 26 17 11:05 pm Link I used to go overboard now I give one shot per look if the image passes the first cut, The Model will have all the final images within 24 hrs which has been averaging around 20 shots and from there I instruct them to pick their favs to publish. Although I may not agree with their decisions it works out ok. May 26 17 11:56 pm Link The more experienced models you work with, the less you'll find that happening May 28 17 08:23 pm Link Kelly Kooper wrote: In fact when you pay a model, you don't have to give her any images. May 29 17 04:35 am Link Depends. Market forces. Negotiable. Varies. May 29 17 08:24 am Link Quality not Quantity Experienced models will know this Newbies will not May 29 17 01:10 pm Link Risen Phoenix Photo wrote: That's true. May 29 17 01:31 pm Link Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote: I normally don't jump into discussions about models but Brooklyn makes an excellent point here. An experienced model looks for quality shots, well composed, artistic even, that do something to make her look that much more special than every other model out there. After all, that's a giant part of why models get hired - they outshine the others or provide a unique look that other models don't. In my experience, an inexperienced model looks for quantity, which is not necessarily a bad thing, if the intent is to see how she looks in various poses, clothes, lighting, etc. If the intent is to develop style, it should be a point of discussion in the pre-shoot meeting with the model noting her desire for quantity and the assistance of the photographer. One can still conduct a shoot like that TFP but it at least lets the photographer know up front the model appreciates practice in front of the camera. May 29 17 01:51 pm Link BobBarford Photo wrote: 1. Any model wanting all images isn't worth my time. May 29 17 02:35 pm Link She did not ask for all the images to be retouched. You are reading things not written. Providing proofs is a reasonable request on a trade shoot. The model should be able to select some of the images to be edited. What is desired in a photographer portfolio is not always the same as the desires for a model portfolio. And just talk to the models. Many have horror stories of photographers shooting for trade, providing some so-so images, but then offering the best ones to be edited at a price. If you are unwilling to allow the model to see the proofs when part of the conditions for negotiating a trade shoot, you should simply move along. Communicate and negotiate. If the model does not like your tone or conditions, the model will simply move along to another photographer who is willing. May 29 17 10:01 pm Link Lieza Nova wrote: Pretty much. May 30 17 02:54 pm Link Todd Meredith wrote: Very reasonable. May 30 17 02:59 pm Link Herman Surkis wrote: Thank you, Herman. I was fortunate when I started to have a great mentor. He taught me that a quality image was only 1/3 of the business of photography. Something I see missing within the MM community is people don't understand how business is conducted. Yes, there's people with different styles and everyone believing their way is the right way, but the basic principles of customer service (from both models and photographers) is blatantly lacking. Here we see the diva with no or little experience demanding money and her only "asset" is to shoot nudes. On the other side of the coin we see the "I bought a fancy DSLR last week - don't know have of its capabilities - so I'm a "professional" photographer now" attitude. Neither realizes there's so much more to actually running a business than the exchange of money. May 31 17 03:05 am Link I come from the era of film, so sometimes a model may say "you don't shoot much", if I shoot for a couple of hours I will have around 150 imxges. I use Darktable for post, crop and small adjustments, and then batch process the files to full size jpg, and then to proofs that will suit the posting requirements of MM. Both sets go to Dropbox in a folder of the Models name. Then I send her the link. She understands the link is not to be broadcast, but she can download the jpgs she wants, It has worked so far. Everything is up within 3 days. Jun 02 17 10:04 am Link |
There is nothing worse than second guessing by your own team. Remember, you don't hire yourself for the modeling gig. It is the photographer or the art director does the hiring. 
