Managing Light wrote:
Kind of hard to contemplate such a position since "satisfaction" such a subjective thing, plus it's kind of a gilded invitation to cheat.

ETA: I was thinking of a model making the offer when I wrote the above.  I suspect that for the most part, each time a photog submits his work to his client he/she is making such a guarantee.

This is mine.

"My work is always guaranteed. If you are not satisfied with the final edited images, then 100% of the total charge will be returned to you without question. All you have to do is ask within 30 days after the shoot and assign and deliver the original unedited files and copyright to the images to me prior to posting any of them online or in publication."

And I suppose you are correct in regards to photographers. I didn't think it through before adding.

Lisa Everhart wrote:
... If you are not satisfied with the final edited images, then 100% of the total charge will be returned to you without question...

Do you furnish the edited images?

Mark Salo wrote:

Do you furnish the edited images?

No. I am a model.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Are you saying: If you, the photographer (or art director, or ...), are not satisfied with the final edited images ...?

I would say that your guarantee is a good deal for you.  You get a TF shoot with all the images and all of the copyrights and can do as you please.

I think it is a good deal for my client because they have no cash at risk when booking me and if they don't like the work, then why should they care if I have it? I would hardly give them their money back and leave them the rights to the images.

Sam Aotaki Jynx wrote:
I've actually never thought about doing this as a model, but maybe I should! Do you find it has been helpful to you in anyway?

Sam, I think it always gives a buyer some peace of mind when they know their satisfaction is considered. So far I have never had to give a refund but I am sure there will be a day.

You are super pretty by the way.

*Edit-Sam, don't let the negativity you see here dissuade you from offering a guarantee to your customers. If you are not familiar with these forums, often threads like this go sideways.

Lisa Everhart wrote:
This is mine.

"My work is always guaranteed. If you are not satisfied with the final edited images, then 100% of the total charge will be returned to you without question. All you have to do is ask within 30 days after the shoot and assign and deliver the original unedited files and copyright to the images to me prior to posting any of them online or in publication."

And I suppose you are correct in regards to photographers. I didn't think it through before adding.

Actually, I think it's quite a reasonable and practical offer.  After all, what use does the photographer have for the pictures if they don't rise to the standards he requires and if he does use them later, that would obviate his claim that they were unsatisfactory.  If he has published them anywhere before accepting your offer then his claim that they were unsatisfactory is moot.  And if you were able to sell them elsewhere, that would prove that they were actually marketable.

The vanity of photographers being what it is, however, I doubt that there will be many (if any) who take you up on it.  For a photographer to surrender copyright would be like his surrendering his first born son. 

All IMHO as always, of course.  Has anyone ever accepted the offer?

Rays Fine Art wrote:

Actually, I think it's quite a reasonable and practical offer.  After all, what use does the photographer have for the pictures if they don't rise to the standards he requires and if he does use them later, that would obviate his claim that they were unsatisfactory.  If he has published them anywhere before accepting your offer then his claim that they were unsatisfactory is moot.  And if you were able to sell them elsewhere, that would prove that they were actually marketable.

The vanity of photographers being what it is, however, I doubt that there will be many (if any) who take you up on it.  For a photographer to surrender copyright would be like his surrendering his first born son. 

All IMHO as always, of course.  Has anyone ever accepted the offer?

Thank you. This is my reasoning exactly and no, not as of yet. I like my guarantee and think it is better to have one than to not.

Two Pears Studio wrote:
yes 100%

Good for you. To me, it seems the right thing to do.

anchev wrote:
Money back guarantee (and warranty) makes sense only for products, not for services because you cannot return the service to the vendor - you have already used their resources. Photography/modeling/post-production is a service. For a service there can be a free trial but again this "free" really means it is already paid implicitly. Usually marketers use money back guarantee as a trick to attract more buyers. It is not a symbol of quality but a cheap gimmick.

So if a client is not happy with my work and I return their money to them I have done something bad? I am sorry but your reasoning escapes me.

MoRina wrote:
I guarantee that if they keep their paws off me I won't kick them in the balls.

Lisa Everhart wrote:
Are there any other models, or photographers for that matter, who offer any sort of guarantee of their clients satisfaction with the work produced for a specific job?

I think it's more common to do the job on spec and get paid if they use it rather than give the money back if they don't.

Lisa Everhart wrote:

This is mine.

"My work is always guaranteed. If you are not satisfied with the final edited images, then 100% of the total charge will be returned to you without question. All you have to do is ask within 30 days after the shoot and assign and deliver the original unedited files and copyright to the images to me prior to posting any of them online or in publication."

And I suppose you are correct in regards to photographers. I didn't think it through before adding.

You might have to provide an NDA saying that you won't reveal who shot them.

Most photographers are too precious with their copyrights to give them up even if the photo has no value.

Mikey McMichaels wrote:
You might have to provide an NDA saying that you won't reveal who shot them.

Most photographers are too precious with their copyrights to give them up even if the photo has no value.

Good idea Mikey, I will add this. Thank you. Unfortunately, I am only able to put my own ego at risk. I have no control over theirs.

*Done.

Lisa Everhart wrote:
So if a client is not happy with my work and I return their money to them I have done something bad? I am sorry but your reasoning escapes me.

Not speaking about you personally:

If a client is not happy with your work (service), simply returning the money may not be good enough because you have also wasted client's time + imagine this in a scenario when a project has a deadline and due to your failure your client will also fail in front of his clients. You see - it can be very complicated. Returning the money in such situation is like saying "Ok, here is your money, it's a fair deal, bye" but actually this is just washing your hands - an irresponsible act of escaping. It is not a fair gesture - on the contrary. That's why when one works professionally, one should be very careful not to accept a job which is beyond one's abilities and always do one's best to 1) understand the actual requirements and ask for all info to disambiguate every detail 2) deliver what is required 3) if the nature of the job allows for that: leave enough room/time for fixes (that may mean re-shooting in case of a modeling job but of course that may not be enough too as a shoot covers much more expenses, not just the model)

anchev wrote:
If a client is not happy with your work (service), simply returning the money may not be good enough because you have also wasted client's time + imagine this in a scenario when a project has a deadline and due to your failure your client will also fail in front of his clients. You see - it can be very complicated. Returning the money in such situation is like saying "Ok, here is your money, it's a fair deal, bye" but actually this is just washing your hands - an irresponsible act of escaping. It is not a fair gesture - on the contrary. That's why when one works professionally, one should be very careful not to accept a job which is beyond one's abilities and always do one's best to 1) understand the actual requirements and ask for all info to disambiguate every detail 2) deliver what is required 3) if the nature of the job allows for that: leave enough room/time for fixes (that may mean re-shooting in case of a modeling job but of course that may not be enough too as a shoot covers much more expenses, not just the model)

In that scenario one better have errors and omissions insurance coverage or it could be far worse than just losing the job/client.

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
In that scenario one better have errors and omissions insurance coverage or it could be far worse than just losing the job/client.

That depends a lot on the service. If you provide web hosting service with a SLA and your server fails for N hours - you can offer a fair refund. But more complicated services in which more factors are involved cannot be resolved by payment. To me money is not the answer to everything, e.g. I don't see what kind of insurance can cover lost trust. If you fail a client because of negligence or incompetence - pay what you will, you are surely losing him. In business (and in life) good relationship is #1.

GRMACK wrote:
How about adding a coupon good for one free shoot after 3 paid ones?   Gets rid of the TFP issues too.

This is not a supermarket. If you are not happy with the result of someone's work, you wouldn't work again with that person again, would you?

anchev wrote:
That depends a lot on the service. If you provide web hosting service with a SLA and your server fails for N hours - you can offer a fair refund. But more complicated services in which more factors are involved cannot be resolved by payment. To me money is not the answer to everything, e.g. I don't see what kind of insurance can cover lost trust. If you fail a client because of negligence or incompetence - pay what you will, you are surely losing him. In business (and in life) good relationship is #1.

I agree you're almost certainly losing the client but that's not what I meant. E&O insurance is to cover you in the event the client decides to sue you for not delivering the work to their satisfaction or failing to deliver at all.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Lisa you are a class act.

I like the idea of a gaurentee. My only question is what if the fault is with the photography, or the equipment or the photographers post work? You are not at fault in any way.

Also, if a shoot goes badly why would you want the copyright to bad images. Would you rather just have the files destroyed?

I knew another model who was heavily influenced by the objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand. She charged her fee say $150 for 2 hours. Then if she liked any of the images she would buy them back at $20 a piece. This way the value of either party was maintained.  I always thought that was a clever out of the box way to approach what she did.

Thank you.

Regardless the fault, I would not want a client of mine to be unhappy and out of pocket. Whether I use the pictures or not is not material to me even though I bet I could crop and edit a few shots out of any series. They paid so they can get their money back or keep the pictures but not both.

I like the idea your model friend had too. Works for me.

anchev wrote:
Not speaking about you personally:

If a client is not happy with your work (service), simply returning the money may not be good enough because you have also wasted client's time + imagine this in a scenario when a project has a deadline and due to your failure your client will also fail in front of his clients. You see - it can be very complicated. Returning the money in such situation is like saying "Ok, here is your money, it's a fair deal, bye" but actually this is just washing your hands - an irresponsible act of escaping. It is not a fair gesture - on the contrary. That's why when one works professionally, one should be very careful not to accept a job which is beyond one's abilities and always do one's best to 1) understand the actual requirements and ask for all info to disambiguate every detail 2) deliver what is required 3) if the nature of the job allows for that: leave enough room/time for fixes (that may mean re-shooting in case of a modeling job but of course that may not be enough too as a shoot covers much more expenses, not just the model)

George, you have strayed so far away from my original OP that I can't reasonably respond to you. I simply asked if their were other models or photographers who offered any sort of guarantee to their clients. Clearly you do not. This was meant to illicit positive responses and details from those who do, not a critique regarding my own guarantee.

I understand your point but disagree with your conclusions. If I pay for a service and am unhappy with it, then being able to get my money back is a good thing as far as i am concerned. Why would I take another shirt to a dry cleaners after they had ruined the first one I took to them? I'll take my cash back please.

*To put it another way, given two different retouchers who do similar work, one who guarantees their clients satisfaction with a money back offer, and the other who has no guarantee at all, I bet most people in this thread would choose the one who offers the guarantee.

Lisa Everhart wrote:

Thank you.

Regardless the fault, I would not want a client of mine to be unhappy and out of pocket. Whether I use the pictures or not is not material to me even though I bet I could crop and edit a few shots out of any series. They paid so they can get their money back or keep the pictures but not both.

I like the idea your model friend had too. Works for me.

Like I said before you are a class act.  I need to drive down to Florida

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Like I said before you are a class act.  I need to drive down to Florida

Come along anytime my friend.

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
I agree you're almost certainly losing the client but that's not what I meant. E&O insurance is to cover you in the event the client decides to sue you for not delivering the work to their satisfaction or failing to deliver at all.

Thanks for clarifying. Well, I guess if one needs such insurance, one will be very soon out of business.

Lisa Everhart wrote:
George, you have strayed so far away from my original OP that I can't reasonably respond to you. I simply asked if their were other models or photographers who offered any sort of guarantee to their clients.

And I answered, as a photographer myself, why I think that such kind of refund is irrelevant.

Clearly you do not.

Correct. I simply don't need to.

This was meant to illicit positive responses and details from those who do,

I can't read your mind, forgive me. I didn't see any note about "I expect only positive responses". And honestly I don't see anything negative said (unless you consider simple logic as something negative.)

not a critique regarding my own guarantee.

I wonder which part you see as a critique. Also did you read this:

anchev wrote:
Not speaking about you personally:
...

?

I understand your point but disagree with your conclusions. If I pay for a service and am unhappy with it, then being able to get my money back is a good thing as far as i am concerned. Why would I take another shirt to a dry cleaners after they had ruined the first one I took to them? I'll take my cash back please.

As I explained previously, it is not that simple, especially if you work on expensive projects chained with other projects and with tight deadlines. Example: I have been tasked in the past to fly to another country, meet lots of people there who I don't know and without even knowing what specifics they would expect. I know I had to photograph something very specific in a very specific way, which would be used later on for other content etc. Everything was arranged, prepaid, assistants were on location etc. And imagine - there were lots of unpredictable complications which initially made the job look really impossible. The easiest thing would be to take the plane, fly back and refund. But that is not how things work when you work with serious people who rely on you. So one needs to be responsible, not to simply think of ways to escape and wash one's hands conveniently. That's why I say all these things, not in order to critique anyone.

*To put it another way, given two different retouchers who do similar work, one who guarantees their clients satisfaction with a money back offer, and the other who has no guarantee at all, I bet most people in this thread would choose the one who offers the guarantee.

This is the perspective of the semi-amateur and of the semi-pro. If you do post-production professionally, perfect your skills and knowledge for years etc, setup your own studio, use expensive professional grade color managed equipment etc. you don't need to offer money back guarantee because your work is at a different level. Just like when you hire a good driver and relax in the Rolls Royce. A sign saying "money back guarantee" is a cheap thing, a petty little affair, not a symbol of quality. When your business message is that your work costs nothing to try out, you become a commodity (I don't mean you personally, speaking generally). Imagine Cindy Crawford (or another) with a sign "money back guarantee". I wonder if you understand what I am saying. Nobody will value your work if you easily say it can be used and thrown out because someone may have been unsatisfied.

So if you as a model want to guarantee your work will be satisfactory - communicate the client needs, learn about their needs, do a test shoot. Deliver quality, not free work.

anchev wrote:

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
I agree you're almost certainly losing the client but that's not what I meant. E&O insurance is to cover you in the event the client decides to sue you for not delivering the work to their satisfaction or failing to deliver at all.

Thanks for clarifying. Well, I guess if one needs such insurance, one will be very soon out of business.

Lisa Everhart wrote:
George, you have strayed so far away from my original OP that I can't reasonably respond to you. I simply asked if their were other models or photographers who offered any sort of guarantee to their clients.

And I answered, as a photographer myself, why I think that such kind of refund is irrelevant.

Clearly you do not.

Correct. I simply don't need to.

This was meant to illicit positive responses and details from those who do,

I can't read your mind, forgive me. I didn't see any note about "I expect only positive responses". And honestly I don't see anything negative said (unless you consider simple logic as something negative.)

not a critique regarding my own guarantee.

I wonder which part you see as a critique. Also did you read this:


?


As I explained previously, it is not that simple, especially if you work on expensive projects chained with other projects and with tight deadlines. Example: I have been tasked in the past to fly to another country, meet lots of people there who I don't know and without even knowing what specifics they would expect. I know I had to photograph something very specific in a very specific way, which would be used later on for other content etc. Everything was arranged, prepaid, assistants were on location etc. And imagine - there were lots of unpredictable complications which initially made the job look really impossible. The easiest thing would be to take the plane, fly back and refund. But that is not how things work when you work with serious people who rely on you. So one needs to be responsible, not to simply think of ways to escape and wash one's hands conveniently. That's why I say all these things, not in order to critique anyone.


This is the perspective of the semi-amateur and of the semi-pro. If you do post-production professionally, perfect your skills and knowledge for years etc, setup your own studio, use expensive professional grade color managed equipment etc. you don't need to offer money back guarantee because your work is at a different level. Just like when you hire a good driver and relax in the Rolls Royce. A sign saying "money back guarantee" is a cheap thing, a petty little affair, not a symbol of quality. When your business message is that your work costs nothing to try out, you become a commodity (I don't mean you personally, speaking generally). Imagine Cindy Crawford (or another) with a sign "money back guarantee". I wonder if you understand what I am saying. Nobody will value your work if you easily say it can be used and thrown out because someone may have been unsatisfied.

So if you as a model want to guarantee your work will be satisfactory - communicate the client needs, learn about their needs, do a test shoot. Deliver quality, not free work.

This is so irritating.  You can talk about, all these "big" production jobs.  Who really cares.  Good for you

Model Mayhem is not a professional site.  It is a site for amateurs with a few pros thrown in, (You can count less then 100 top notch working fashion photographers on this site of 1,000,000 members.  Then there are the guys who mostly shoot weddings and senior pics. And a dozen or so wonderful art photographers.

Trust me if they (those guys shooting weddings and senior pics or portraits) F up a shoot they are paying their clients back.  That is if they want to stay in business and not ruin their reputation.

Lisa tries to think out of the box and have her clients feel comfortable about chosing her as a model with little risk.

That is something to be applauded not to be insulted or attacked. 

You are free to run your business any way you choose, and so does she.  I give her props for caring about her clients.  And the fact that she has had only one issue in a number of years over I am sure 100s of shoots says that she does deliver quality.

anchev wrote:
This is not a supermarket. If you are not happy with the result of someone's work, you wouldn't work again with that person again, would you?

You're a lost cause George and no amount gibberish or attempts to misdirect will make your argument a reasonable one. I wish you the best when you try and explain to an unhappy customer that the reason you are keeping their money is because you are a "professional" and produce only quality work whether they think so or not.

Please do let us know how that conversation goes.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I have taken to comping an hour if the photographer gets back to me within reasonable time.
IF we didn't get results (only happened once so far, and it was the weather..)
But they have to speak up, I'm not baby sitting.


Lisa, I love what you did, although it seems to be misunderstood here that YOU would also be out of time, $$, a drive, prep and overall maintenance of the product..yourself.

But I started the race with a geriatric horse, no need to flog it...

Thank you. I think yours is a reasonable solution as well. It is beyond me how anyone would think an attempt to be fair somehow cheapens our work.

We both know how some people here in the forums lack the capacity to see beyond themselves. Unfortunately, I have come to expect it. The best to you.

anchev wrote:
*snip

The easiest thing would be to take the plane, fly back and refund. But that is not how things work when you work with serious people who rely on you. So one needs to be responsible, not to simply think of ways to escape and wash one's hands conveniently..

Do tell, o wise cracking one, how in the fuck you come to the conclusion that a refund policy is just an excuse to bail on a job?!?





Man, when I am flown to a job, I can't just turn around and go home, I have rent to pay! I will lose skin and be unable to reasonably accept another shoot for at least ten days after I deal with sharp rocks in the water, so I cannot afford to just drop it like it's hot. What I can do is give 100% and deliver killer images.
If that shit doesn't happen, I still want that photographer to rehire me, because he forked out big to work with me in the first place. So I will cut my fee, or, other way around, comp a half day or day.
Sense? I hope so!