Forums > Off-Topic Discussion > If Other Professions Were Paid Like Artists

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Just had to share considering the amount of TF vs Paid threads.
lol

https://antranik.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/if-other-professions-were-paid-like-artists.jpg

Jul 17 17 06:39 am Link

Photographer

sospix

Posts: 22875

Orlando, Florida, US

Jules NYC wrote:
Just had to share considering the amount of TF vs Paid threads.
lol

https://antranik.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/if-other-professions-were-paid-like-artists.jpg

Seems like most everything I've ever done has been TF  .  .  .  wink

SOS

Jul 17 17 06:47 am Link

Photographer

Love the Arts

Posts: 999

Malibu, California, US

Jules NYC wrote:
Just had to share considering the amount of TF vs Paid threads.
lol

https://antranik.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/if-other-professions-were-paid-like-artists.jpg

That's funny.

Don't kid yourself, there are many professionals that donate their time, skill and or wisdom pro-bono.
And, professional artists (like other professionals) don't do everything for trade. Just say yes if it's  a passion project for a value beyond money and here is my price if it is not.

Jul 17 17 07:52 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

sospix wrote:

Seems like most everything I've ever done has been TF  .  .  .  wink

SOS

I have a phone interview today for a job at a big company for my artistic talents. Making money IS possible!
lol

Jul 17 17 07:52 am Link

Photographer

Love the Arts

Posts: 999

Malibu, California, US

Jules NYC wrote:

I have a phone interview today for a job at a big company for my artistic talents. Making money IS possible!
lol

Making money is possible. Talent has value, it just nice to have dollars coming in different directions because sometimes that value doesn't appear when the rent is due. LOL!

Jul 17 17 08:00 am Link

Photographer

Michael DBA Expressions

Posts: 3509

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

sospix wrote:
Seems like most everything I've ever done has been TF  .  .  .  wink

SOS

Jules NYC wrote:
I have a phone interview today for a job at a big company for my artistic talents. Making money IS possible!
lol

Best of luck, may they decide the absolutely MUST have your talents/skills and are willing to pay you whatever is required to secure your employment.

Jul 17 17 08:00 am Link

Photographer

sospix

Posts: 22875

Orlando, Florida, US

Jules NYC wrote:

I have a phone interview today for a job at a big company for my artistic talents. Making money IS possible!
lol

Oh, I've made money with my "talents" before, jest not sure how artistic most people thought they were  .  .  .  wink  Actually, I find it very satisfying when someone absolutely "has to have" something I've created  .  .  .  I think some of the agents I've had in the past just wish that would have happened a little more often  .  .  .  wink

SOS

Jul 17 17 08:04 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Love the Arts wrote:

Making money is possible. Talent has value, it just nice to have dollars coming in different directions because sometimes that value doesn't appear when the rent is due. LOL!

Talent does have value!

Jul 17 17 08:10 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Michael DBA Expressions wrote:
Best of luck, may they decide the absolutely MUST have your talents/skills and are willing to pay you whatever is required to secure your employment.

Thank you.  It's a contract world.  Thing is, I'd be making waaaaaaaaaaaay more at another contract job.  That's good enough for me!  We'll see...  Very pragmatic these days with job security and money.

I did almost the same job at Pfizer in NYC.  This one involves more of an overall IT skill level and design skills.  The pay goes up when you acquire more skills.

Jul 17 17 08:11 am Link

Photographer

Shadow Dancer

Posts: 7495

Bellingham, Washington, US

Nothing about getting "paid" after you die, like Van Gogh?

Jul 17 17 06:28 pm Link

Photographer

j francis photography

Posts: 394

Los Angeles, California, US

Donating your time is one thing. Being EXPECTED to routinely do it is another. The cartoon seems to be lampooning the former when it means to be critiquing the latter.

Jul 17 17 06:42 pm Link

Photographer

Randy Poe

Posts: 1313

Colorado Springs, Colorado, US

I worked as student one time for a high profile and high cost major advertising event for free. They were pleased with my work and hired me the following year for a reasonable fee. That should sound like success right? I got a call a couple days before the event and was asked to keep my being paid a secret as it was a screw up to be offering the photographer money. I did the event and got my pay I was offered but it never sat with me this rule of theirs to not pay for this service by group policy. I chose to not do the event again. They didn't miss me as they just got another up and coming student who was happy to do it in hopes to hob nob with the group.

This is why it bothers me they do this despite my being paid in secret.

THESE ARE THE SAME GODDAM ASS HATS MAKING ALL THE CLEVER MEMES, CARTOONS AND BLOGS ABOUT PEOPLE WANTING THEM TO WORK FOR EXPOSURE! They are designers and artist. Yet when it comes to their wallets they can't help themselves to not crap all over the next guy. Now days these things only make me angry at the complete tools who make them.
sigh.

Jul 17 17 10:16 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 4175

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

Randy Poe wrote:
I worked as student one time for a high profile and high cost major advertising event for free. They were pleased with my work and hired me the following year for a reasonable fee. That should sound like success right? I got a call a couple days before the event and was asked to keep my being paid a secret as it was a screw up to be offering the photographer money. I did the event and got my pay I was offered but it never sat with me this rule of theirs to not pay for this service by group policy. I chose to not do the event again. They didn't miss me as they just got another up and coming student who was happy to do it in hopes to hob nob with the group.

This is why it bothers me they do this despite my being paid in secret.

THESE ARE THE SAME GODDAM ASS HATS MAKING ALL THE CLEVER MEMES, CARTOONS AND BLOGS ABOUT PEOPLE WANTING THEM TO WORK FOR EXPOSURE! They are designers and artist. Yet when it comes to their wallets they can't help themselves to not crap all over the next guy. Now days these things only make me angry at the complete tools who make them.
sigh.

Correct.  That is because TALENT DOESN"T PAY TALENT.  Or, at least that is what I keep hearing.

Jul 18 17 02:58 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

I found the cartoon funny because you can be a professional designer/artist of any kind, yet when we think of 'professional positions' I think of a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc.

I don't know any doctors that do surgeries for free EXCEPT those hard luck cases or when death is imminent and you hear of some altruistic doctor doing the service for free on your local news.

I know a ton of models that would love to be in a major mag like Vogue, Bazaar, etc. (even though print is dying and celebs are taking that genre over) and would GLADLY do it for free.  Thing is, most models are not good enough to be in either. 

You can be absolutely wonderful in a very creative outlet.  If you give away your time, that's awesome if you're getting something out of it.  A doctor gets that feeling of philanthropy and goodness I'm sure.  Imagine if he/she did that for everyone?

He/she makes no money!

You can make $ right out of the gate if you can and someone is willing... just after a while your time becomes more valuable.  That's the way it is for me at least.

P.S. there's no golden ticket to be in Vogue except as a springboard for other gigs. 
Remember this?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--AT8tKJWc--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18j15pyoke3skjpg.jpg

Jul 18 17 05:22 am Link

Photographer

WisconsinArt

Posts: 607

Nashotah, Wisconsin, US

I pay my models.

If they show up.......

Jul 18 17 05:25 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 25437

Portland, Oregon, US

>>>>>  Tangent Alert  >>>>>

When did "Talent" become associated exclusively to artistic endeavors?
...  Isn't the ability to write efficient, error-free, and reliable software a talent?
...  Isn't the ability to fix plumbing problems a talent?
...  Isn't the ability to fix a brain tumor a talent?

I kinda think that all work requires some level of talent.  Some talents are rarer than others, but heck, it even take talent to do the laundry.

I firmly believe that Supply & Demand is a more significant factor in determining compensation.  Specifically, I believe that talent definitely needs to pay talent when the demand for that talent is high and the supply is low.

>>>>>  End Tangent  >>>>>

Jul 18 17 07:57 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
>>>>>  Tangent Alert  >>>>>

When did "Talent" become associated exclusively to artistic endeavors?
...  Isn't the ability to write efficient, error-free, and reliable software a talent?
...  Isn't the ability to fix plumbing problems a talent?
...  Isn't the ability to fix a brain tumor a talent?


>>>>>  End Tangent  >>>>>

That's a great point.  I've met way too many financial people that say they have -0- talents.  I'd rather write and design at a corporate job and write, sing, act, model, etc. on my free time and make as much money as I can with both.

You really have to hit a level of expertise, supply & demand or some magical formula that allows you to do as you wish, doing whatever you want for work.  Creative freedom comes at a price!  Not always if money is not your end-all.

It's very natural for me to write and be creative amongst other things.... naturally.  I don't want to dislike the things I enjoy if I have to do it under someone else's thumb.  I would however take my talents and do creative work when I can at a job.

I can't understand how some models blow in here thinking they are going to make a fortune by freelancing on MM. Um, no.

Jul 18 17 08:24 am Link

Photographer

Leonard Gee Photography

Posts: 17513

Sacramento, California, US

has not much to do with "artists". has to do with greedy people taking advantage of anything they want.

testing is a tool. very useful in the modeling business for photographers, models and their agencies. it has devolved into "trade" by beginners, freelancers and people who don't understand why it's useful. instead, it is seen by others as a commodity. now many images, who owns the images, and why can't i have them right after the shoot becomes the driving force - all the way to "i want all the images, ip rights and you get zip" attitude. and of course, the famous "you get the experience, credit and glory" ploy.

i have a good friend who's father was a skilled bonded union electrician. he grew up learning under his father in the business. he is also good at construction, learning some tangent trades along the way. being a very kind person, he does work for his friends for free sometimes. he has a fairly well to do brother who now wants him to put up a fence. now, that's not my friend's primary type of specialty and he knows his brother can and should just hire a fencing jobber to do it. his brother has no appreciation for the skills and special knowledge require that would make the job much easier and better accomplished if a fencing contractor were to do the job.

i have always appreciated the skill and time of a model. that value was never translated into a monetary value. most model's placed a value on my skills. that mutual respect matters. it doesn't come down to the how many hours of post processing, darkroom or computer time vs hair coloring, makeup and skin care time. that's what the outside person sees.

Jul 18 17 10:43 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
has not much to do with "artists". has to do with greedy people taking advantage of anything they want.

testing is a tool. very useful in the modeling business for photographers, models and their agencies. it has devolved into "trade" by beginners, freelancers and people who don't understand why it's useful. instead, it is seen by others as a commodity. now many images, who owns the images, and why can't i have them right after the shoot becomes the driving force - all the way to "i want all the images, ip rights and you get zip" attitude. and of course, the famous "you get the experience, credit and glory" ploy.

i have a good friend who's father was a skilled bonded union electrician. he grew up learning under his father in the business. he is also good at construction, learning some tangent trades along the way. being a very kind person, he does work for his friends for free sometimes. he has a fairly well to do brother who now wants him to put up a fence. now, that's not my friend's primary type of specialty and he knows his brother can and should just hire a fencing jobber to do it. his brother has no appreciation for the skills and special knowledge require that would make the job much easier and better accomplished if a fencing contractor were to do the job.

i have always appreciated the skill and time of a model. that value was never translated into a monetary value. most model's placed a value on my skills. that mutual respect matters. it doesn't come down to the how many hours of post processing, darkroom or computer time vs hair coloring, makeup and skin care time. that's what the outside person sees.

Nothing pisses me off more than when people who CAN afford a product/service, always want it for free!

Modeling can be a different element of 'hey I have this experience and skill' and it's a loaded topic.  Truth be told, you can make a lot of money in modeling or not!

Hard labor for free?  That's bullshit.  How about talents that are from the mind?  How many times I played psychologist to people is amazing.  I did it to be nice.  If I went to school for that and was a working psychologist or psychiatrist then I would be super drained if EVERYONE sought my counsel for squat.

I think people don't realize it takes expertise to invest your money, buy a home and there are people that can give you killer advice that work within those fields or have had success in private ventures.  All of these things have value.

I believe that most people think that if you can do something it should be free just because.  Those people usually have more money than I do.

No, I don't want to fix your computer or write your thesis... oh boy I can go on.
How many times my Dad did fancy architectural drawing for zip for friends.  Fuck that shit.

Take out your God-damn wallet and pay someone for their expertise!

Jul 18 17 10:55 am Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 32185

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Jules NYC wrote:

Nothing pisses me off more than when people who CAN afford a product/service, always want it for free!

Modeling can be a different element of 'hey I have this experience and skill' and it's a loaded topic.  Truth be told, you can make a lot of money in modeling or not!

Hard labor for free?  That's bullshit.  How about talents that are from the mind?  How many times I played psychologist to people is amazing.  I did it to be nice.  If I went to school for that and was a working psychologist or psychiatrist then I would be super drained if EVERYONE sought my counsel for squat.

I think people don't realize it takes expertise to invest your money, buy a home and there are people that can give you killer advice that work within those fields or have had success in private ventures.  All of these things have value.

I believe that most people think that if you can do something it should be free just because.  Those people usually have more money than I do.

No, I don't want to fix your computer or write your thesis... oh boy I can go on.
How many times my Dad did fancy architectural drawing for zip for friends.  Fuck that shit.

Take out your God-damn wallet and pay someone for their expertise!

I agree!

Jul 18 17 11:24 am Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 4175

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

Hard labor for free is fine.  Last fall, I helped my employee replace half his garage roof,  All the seating was rotted.  More than half the rafters had to be cut away and sistered.  Some fully replaced.  Facia boards, Even the sill plate was gone.  It never even crossed my mind to charge him.  Someday soon, he will be helping me on my house and someday soon we will do the other half of his garage roof, which isn't nearly as bad.  We help each other with the skills that we have.  This was common in my circle of friends till some of them got too old.

Edit:
However, I have grown weary of helping all my elderly and disabled neighbors clear their snow after every storm.  I have been handed a coupon for a free whopper, or given a bag of bagels at Christmas for a whole winter's worth of snow removal.  I feel I crossed the line between watching out for my neighbors and being taken advantage of.

Jul 18 17 11:28 am Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Hard labor for free is fine.  Last fall, I helped my employee replace half his garage roof,  All the seating was rotted.  More than half the rafters had to be cut away and sistered.  Some fully replaced.  Facia boards, Even the sill plate was gone.  It never even crossed my mind to charge him.  Someday soon, he will be helping me on my house and someday soon we will do the other half of his garage roof, which isn't nearly as bad.  We help each other with the skills that we have.  This was common in my circle of friends till some of them got too old.

Edit:
However, I have grown weary of helping all my elderly and disabled neighbors clear their snow after every storm.  I have been handed a coupon for a free whopper, or given a bag of bagels at Christmas for a whole winter's worth of snow removal.  I feel I crossed the line between watching out for my neighbors and being taken advantage of.

Who you are and what you did is sincerely, truly sweet.
Re-read your last line though.

Sometimes in old age, there is not really any money to pay people and neighbors like you are a gem.
Something about give and take is really nice.  I think when someone is used to getting something, they expect it.

Jul 18 17 11:48 am Link

Photographer

Herman Surkis

Posts: 10594

Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Love the Arts wrote:

That's funny.

Don't kid yourself, there are many professionals that donate their time, skill and or wisdom pro-bono.
And, professional artists (like other professionals) don't do everything for trade. Just say yes if it's  a passion project for a value beyond money and here is my price if it is not.

/thread

Jul 18 17 02:14 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 4175

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

Jules NYC wrote:
Who you are and what you did is sincerely, truly sweet.
Re-read your last line though.

Sometimes in old age, there is not really any money to pay people and neighbors like you are a gem.
Something about give and take is really nice.  I think when someone is used to getting something, they expect it.

-
I understand what I said.    Many people would draw the line at helping in the first place.

Jul 18 17 09:49 pm Link

Model

Jules NYC

Posts: 21015

New York, New York, US

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
-
I understand what I said.   Many people would draw the line at helping in the first place.

I gave you a compliment, not debating.
I like helping people too.  When it's too much, taking away from my resources or I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, I stop.  It's easy.

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/dsmh.gif

Jul 19 17 05:18 am Link

Photographer

hbutz New York

Posts: 3668

New York, New York, US

I blame the departure from traditional film photography when you really had to know what you were doing to produce a good image.  Now, with digital cameras and Photoshop, everyone is a photographer.  Even a monkey can do it.

Jul 21 17 08:33 am Link

Photographer

Shadow Dancer

Posts: 7495

Bellingham, Washington, US

hbutz New York wrote:
I blame the departure from traditional film photography when you really had to know what you were doing to produce a good image.  Now, with digital cameras and Photoshop, everyone is a photographer.  Even a monkey can do it.

I used to work in film based photo labs. Even a monkey could do it back then too. For every good photo I saw, there were thousands that were not good. Sometimes I would run a roll from an Instamatic 110 camera and out of the 24 photos there would be one that was somehow accidently brilliant. Even a blind pig finds an acorn here and there. Mostly, it was crap.

Even the professional accounts I worked with in the only Kodak Q Lab in the Central Valley of California, those rolls of 120 and sheets of 4x5 were heavily bracketed by professional shooters wanting to get things "just right" so they would shoot over and under in whatever increments their cameras would allow up to plus and minus a stop or two. LOTS of wasted shots by those "who really had to know what they were doing" but could not control the development process. Then, they would order a "snip test" and we would run just the first frame or so (impossible to know in total darkness!!!!), let them see it and they would order processing accordingly. I ran LOTS of pushes and pulls back then, 1/3 of a stop sometimes in either direction. A huge PITA since you have to reset all your development timing (we had everything clearly marked).

So much for the "professionals".

Film has nothing to do with somebody making quality images, nothing at all. What has changed is the delivery system. I gave the package of developed film and prints back to the customer and it disappeared into some dismal drawer filled with horrendous pictures. Now, images are uploaded instantly and even if you spent 1/10th of a second looking at each one and never did anything else, you would die before you saw them all or even a small fraction of them. And, most of the images would suck and here and there one would be amazing.

So, a nostalgic illusion has been created, the "logic" of giving film credit for images "being better" in the good old days completely escapes me but then I know from firsthand experience the inconvenient reality that gives the lie to the entire premise.

Very similar to how people will wax nostalgic for the older music since it was "was better back then when people could really play". We never hear the impressive mountain of crap that was produced in "the good old days", just the few hits that have staying power and honestly, most of those are really not that great.

So it goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98AJUj-qxHI

Jul 21 17 10:11 am Link

Photographer

hbutz New York

Posts: 3668

New York, New York, US

just saying... back when we used film cameras, paid $6 bucks for a roll of film and $20 for processing nobody took pictures of their food.

Jul 21 17 12:05 pm Link

Photographer

Shadow Dancer

Posts: 7495

Bellingham, Washington, US

hbutz New York wrote:
just saying... back when we used film cameras, paid $6 bucks for a roll of film and $20 for processing nobody took pictures of their food.

That may be true of yourself and a small circle of friends but I saw LOTS of photos of food, pets, cars, tables, anything you can think of and many things that might not ever occur to anybody but got snapshot status just the same.

As stated above, I saw tons of bracketing by pro shooters using 120 and 4x5 film, mostly wasted film. We sold quite a bit of Polaroid film for 4x5, not really wasted but not useful as a final product either. The idea that film somehow improved the quality of the initial capture is entirely a nostagic fable, a "feel good" story.

I think I could tell the gender of the photographer pretty well by the photos they shot. Women tend to shoot photos of their family, friends, pets, gardens and sometimes of a table setting. Men tend to shoot photos of their stuff, cars, guitars, guns, and sometimes of their girlfriends.

Shooting digital allows those who need to and know the difference to dial in their images to a much finer degree than was ever possible with film. Modern cameras offering 1/3 stop settings is helpful. The top Canon and Nikon offerings in 35mm had this feature but that just meant more bracketing.

I will grant you that the cost of film did make some put more consideration into their work. Nothing about switching to digital has changed that, when somebody wants to get it right they will take the time to do so regardless of format.

We are just seeing much more of EVERYTHING everybody shoots, that is the only difference between "the good old days" and current times.

Jul 21 17 12:37 pm Link

guide forum

Photographer

Rays Fine Art

Posts: 7258

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Over the years I've done a lot of "arts" things, Acting, Painting, Playwriting, even from time to time Modeling, and finally, Photography.  I've done all of them for "free" sometimes and except for photography (Yet --- ! and that because I don't see it as an industry in which the combination of time and money required is likely to produce an adequate profit.)  I've also made money from them, sometimes!   But in the long run, non-arts activities have paid better, so I rely on them for my livelihood.

Even so, I feel that the arts have compensated me richly in my education and in their application to my more profitable activities.  Certainly as a trainer and administrator in Wall St. and later in  management consulting my writing and acting experience gave me a skill and presence that many of my competitors lacked.  As a real estate broker and investor, my income has definitely benefited from my work in the visual arts.

Then, too, there is the fact (and value) of the enjoyment that I experience from my artistic work, whether done for pay or play.  Hell, I would never have met my wife had I not been casting an Off-Broadway show!  The show was a flop but the marriage has lasted for more than a half-century!  When making these comparisons, we need to recognize the fact that we work to make money in order to be able to spend that money on the things and activities we really enjoy.  Thus, if we truly enjoy something, we need to apply a dollar-per-hour valuation to the time thus spent that is equal to the dollar-per-hour earned to enable the activity.

The point is that our artistic activities profit us in ways that our more business-like efforts cannot and a comparison must include the value received from those intangibles.  Indeed they often are the very things that allow us to succeed in business where others fail.  We might as well say that the time spent earning a medical or law degree is wasted and opt instead for a factory job.  I did.  But it was the arts that ultimately lifted me above that fog of conformity to where I could see better, and vie for better paying, jobs.  Far from being wasted, they were my salvation.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Jul 21 17 02:10 pm Link