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Your opinion of these policies?
So I'm a photographer, and the last two months I've been hiring models via this site for various photo-shoots. After being really burned by a model today (long story... maybe I'll share in another thread) I've decided it's time for me to come up with some policies. What do you think of these? I would LOVE to hear from models as well as photographers. If you are a model -- do these policies seem reasonable, or would you refuse to work with a photographer who had them? https://drive.google.com/open?id=1s0EN_ … 7beGBHk0qc Also, anything else you think I should add that maybe I'm missing? Jul 31 17 05:11 pm Link RIStudio wrote: Wishful dreaming. We can quote your bad experience word for word, we've all been there. Welcome to the club. :-( Jul 31 17 05:36 pm Link Silly, silly boy. First, if they aren't responsible enough to show up, what makes you think they are responsible enough to pay you what you demand ? And on that note, just cause you give them this piece of paper or email it to them or post it, it does not mean they agree to it. And even if they agree, if they violate it and refuse to pay the fine, what are you going to do ? Take them to court ? Wouldn't bother as your piece of paper doesn't make it to the level of a contract. You need to name the parties, recite the consideration, list the pertinent duties of each, if it is a unilateral contract it has to be signed by the person to be charged, if bilateral then signed by both parties. And most of all, if I was the model and you handed me this paper I'd tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. You are kind of saying, "I don't trust you and if It turns out I'm right I want you to pay me." Something like a pre-nuputal agreement... I know we're going to love each other forever and ever but if I'm wrong, here's how the money gets split. Jul 31 17 06:03 pm Link Great big buncha nothin' right there! Jul 31 17 06:35 pm Link You'll increase your flake rate. Jul 31 17 06:49 pm Link So basically, what I'm hearing is that late cancellations, showing up late, and no-shows are a normal part of working with models, and we photographers simply have to foot the bill when we end up with a flake. And, a model can have policies about deposits not being returned if you cancel less than 7 days before a shoot, but a photographer cannot. Honestly what you all say makes sense -- no I can't enforce getting a model to reimburse me for studio costs. But at least the part about showing up late makes sense to me as a policy for models who do show up. It makes sense to me that if they are late, a portion of their modeling fee should go to studio costs. And you'd want to put this as a policy up-front, no? Jul 31 17 06:53 pm Link Hire people from a legitimate talent/modeling agency. Problem solved! Most agencies carry insurance that covers costs if the model/talent doesn't show up. (This is different than a surety bond which most agencies also must obtain) It's not a bad idea for pro photographers to get the same kind of insurance. It doesn't cost much and will save your a$$ and reputation if you forgot to make it to the wedding you were booked at, or your car broke down while getting there. Lot's more instances, but you get the point. Non-Appearance Insurance Jul 31 17 07:00 pm Link RIStudio wrote: There are ways to protect yourself from a model flaking. Putting up a bunch of financial penalties on the model ain't one of them. Jul 31 17 07:25 pm Link Orca Bay Images wrote: ^^^ This!!! ^^^ Jul 31 17 07:32 pm Link RIStudio wrote: Well, yes & no. Jul 31 17 07:52 pm Link Agency models are great but the problem is most won't send their models to a unknown to the agency photographer. Agencies also bill clients and models receive a voucher. Even if you could hire agency models it could cost serious $$$ Testing is the way too go but be forewarned agency models won't in general sign a release. I understand how the OP feels but his FAQ will either be ignored by models or worse cost him some who might want to shoot but are turned off. Going forward don't rent studio space or spend money for MUA or props, etc. for models you haven't worked with. That includes those you pay. Another option is too reach out to boutique agencies. Some have good models. They may be affordable compared to agencies like ELITE or FORD. A few more tips include meeting up if possible a few days before a planned session. Another is offer a ride. Many models may not have a reliable car. Some may not trust this but you can still offer it. Personally I've found Craigslist or Facebook a better place to find reliable models then this site. Based on what you've written I see you want to break into shooting fashion. Before you go to any of the larger agencies study their website. Here's Elite, LA. http://www.elitemodel.com/elite/# You will need a decent book (no critique). Have you ever assisted anyone? A few more ideals. Go to some of the hair and make-up shows. Hit the runways shows as well. Designers always need update photos. Jul 31 17 08:04 pm Link Thank you all for the advice. I think building up a portfolio that will allow me to work with agency models does sound like a great suggestion. That has actually been my goal all along -- but I do have to work with non-agency models to develop my craft further and create that portfolio first. So I suppose I'll have to roll with the punches along the way in the mean time. But really great suggestions all. I do recognize now that my 'policies' are likely a bad idea, and will likely stay away from that route. Jul 31 17 08:22 pm Link Alright! Time for me to dust off one of my old posted comments! Bringing this over from the other page ... this is why I don't mind "flake" threads. "Dudes!" (... and dudettes!) "Stop the fighting!" There are NO absolutes when it comes to dealing with the human species ... well except that we are all going to be dead someday. "I've got a buddy. He's the last one to let you down. He's a mortician." So listen up! Absolutely none of us are immune to the possibility of a model flaking on us. Heck, photographers flake too! So you had a model that was confirmed flake on you. I remember my last "no show/no call" flake on March 21st, 2006 ... and she was a model I had shot with previously. She straight up vanished! It was for a car show, and I had plenty of back up, so she was not that badly missed. What I preach is communication, although I always keep in the back of my mind that "a flake" could happen to me at anytime. In fact, I try to plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Here are some things I do that seem to help; (1) Get the people invested in the shoot. If money is being exchanged, she or he is more likely to show up on time! It's a serious loss if you show up late to court or the hospital. So if "serious loss" of money, freedom or life is involved, we show up! It's not only money that can be exchanged, but in a trade situation the images I shoot should hopefully be worth while to the model. Money is NOT the only motivator! If they like you and your work, other factors like that are key to being "invested!" Consider what they get out of the shoot. (2) Be sure you have exchanged cell phone numbers AND that directions are CLEAR. I have an unlimited talk and text plan that allows long distance too so I don't care if I talk to someone while giving them directions. I welcome the communication, so it does not bother me for people to call me anytime and as often as needed. I always speak on the phone at least once with every model before confirming the shoot! Communication is important! (3) Have alternative plans or things to do available to you so that you are not bored (which contributes to bad moods.) I like to have several people around so that I can put someone in right away to check lighting, warm up, etc. ... before the model gets there. Then when the model arrives, they jump in! It works that way in Hollywood! If you can find something else to occupy your time, you'll feel better. (4) Car pool or make arrangements for transportation. This is a good thing to do, especially when it's critical to have everyone there about the same time. Traffic becomes less of an "poor" excuse when we are together in it! I also have noticed that models who have a driver (or an escort, or assistant riding) do tend to arrive on time more often. It's nice to have someone helping with maps and directions. I'll even be the driver if necessary! Transportation is the number one reason many people are late to work! (5) Use contracts or releases. Get it in writing and ready to be signed before shooting. Don't depend on word of mouth! If things are stated in writing, then issues can be resolved much easier. Minor differences become major if you don't do this. Send a copy in advance of a shoot. Don't assume it's a done deal! (6) Last but not least, check references! Read comments left by others, and consider what they say about the person. Ask questions that can reveal if they have problems that might cause them to not make it to the shoot. I've even asked models directly over the phone; "Is your grandma healthy? Or are you gonna flake on me?" - We laugh - "Do you have reliable transportation?" is another more reasonable question to ask. Keeping in mind that I do mostly stock, website content, glamour, nudes and editorial, there are many times I pay models, but there are many more times that I do "TFP." For those who do "TFP" and complain ... all I can say is what does the photographer and model have to lose? It's part of the risk you take in doing "TFP" ... if it is something that absolutely must get done, then it's better to pay the models. Often times I call back the same models I've shot in trade to hire them for paid shoots. I cannot over stress how important communication is in working relationships between photographers and models. When you find someone who 'clicks" with you, then work with them again and again! If they didn't flake on you the first time, they are less likely to do so a second. However, even that is not guaranteed. I keep in the back of my mind an answer to the question; "What am I going to do if the model doesn't show up?" Over a 30 year period, I can still count the number of flakes I've had on two hands. It works! Jul 31 17 09:26 pm Link Patrick Walberg wrote: I’ve been on MM for 11 years and only had one flake. Aug 01 17 01:42 am Link I personally agree with all the policies in principle and would be happy to accept a penalty based on my failure. However, in practice I would tend to agree with most of the comments that have been made by most of the photographers here. Aug 01 17 03:16 am Link Nice script...if you can herd the cats to comply! 😉 This is a creative endeavor! It requires the abandonment of many cherished beliefs of the work world. Similiarities to NASA, FedEx, WSJ are remote...it operates more lkke WH does these days.😊 [not a political statement, just an operational observation!] Aug 01 17 04:06 am Link as much as I am in favor of model's being responsible, I would not advise any model I know to sign any agreement like this. My estimation of what one model would say to another is not only to decline signing it but avoid working with you entirely. This document probably made you feel better to write but as others have mentioned is possibly unenforceable or at least not worth the effort of enforcing. It would be easier to book reliable models, get references, and have a back up plan. Another route would to book through legitimate agencies, but there is going to be a cost. Basically you are trying to get away cheap for what the rest of us do all of the time. Aug 01 17 07:11 am Link Has someone mentioned this yet: these "policies" are not binding on the model. For example: I have a policy -- if someone asks a question on a forum, and I respond, then the person asking the question owes me a $50 consulting fee. My point is that just because I say that so-n-so will owe me money if certain conditions are met, that doesn't mean the so-n-so is obligated to pay me money. Aug 01 17 07:35 am Link Lisa Everhart wrote: +1 Aug 01 17 11:16 am Link RIStudio wrote: yup Aug 01 17 11:17 am Link Let me simply your new requirements. "If a model is 15 minutes late, they are fired." Done! No need for silly breakdowns or charts. Aug 01 17 11:23 am Link I would not be inclined to even book a shoot with someone who sent me this document. Not because I find the criteria unreasonable; I don't, but because it comes across like someone who is going to have a negative attitude about freelance models. I will say that once, in 2012 or so, I was 1.5 hours late to a shoot. I had a 2 hour commute to the location anyway, and then a car flipped over on the interstate I was traveling on and actually caught on fire. Traffic was stopped for hours, and the fire department had to put out the fire. I had left my house two hours early, expecting to sit at a Starbucks for awhile before my shoot time, but instead I ended up sitting in traffic for hours, nearly running out of gas idling. And I believe someone died in that accident. When I first called the photographer, saying I was stopped in what appeared to be miles of traffic, he seemed skeptical. Later, he called me back and said he'd seen footage of the accident on the breaking news. An hour or two later, I passed the burned husk of a car. I made it to my shoot, but I was VERY late. It was outside of my control. There were other times that, due to significantly less major traffic problems, I was 10-20 minutes late. It doesn't matter how early you leave your house if there is stopped traffic on an interstate. There have also been times I was hours early, and had to find somewhere to sit and kill time for awhile. Lateness isn't really a cut and dried issue. The last two shoots I had, the photographers were running late to the location and I waited on them both 20+ minutes. I've also had photographers totally flake on me, and never show up to a location at all. Whatever. Shit happens. Aug 01 17 11:50 am Link Koryn wrote: I managed to show up 3 days early once, that was hilarious. Aug 01 17 11:55 am Link Ionalynn wrote: I had a model show up exactly one week early once -- she had gotten the date wrong. She was also from out of town. We were lucky because... Aug 01 17 04:57 pm Link The longest I waited for a model to show up (stuck in traffic) was nearly 2hrs, yes 2hrs! The reason I waited is that she was genuinely stuck in traffic but kept me informed throughout, right up to point when she emerged from the tube station. Also, because it was an outdoor shoot so neither one of us were under any time constraints (late afternoon summer sun is way better anyway), so neither party was concerned about the time. She was fantastic, and actually ended up staying an extra half an hour on top of the 2hrs missed! However, the main reason I waited is because the model was super hot and worth waiting for. Had she been fairly average then I would have cancelled or re-scheduled. I'm very shallow, so for me it's really as simple as that! Aug 02 17 04:39 am Link Ionalynn wrote: And this benefits the shoot how? Irregardless of compensation, to throw away 45 minutes of productive time over the loss of 15 minutes of time is just stupid. If it was an 8 hour shoot does your asinine rule still apply? Aug 02 17 05:20 am Link Ionalynn wrote: Dan Howell wrote: I just mentioned this on another thread: Marilyn Monroe had a terrible reputation -- she would show up hours & hours late to the set, keeping everyone else there waiting for her. But what can you do? If you wanted Monroe in your movie, you waited. Aug 02 17 08:17 am Link Never send $$ to unknown persons on the internet Dont pay until job is done Dont book studios until model arrives Add 30 min late window between call time and actual start time You arent Billy Wilder You arent shooting Marlyin Monroe and Im sure you dont have the resources of a movie studio behind you Aug 02 17 08:43 am Link Not many models answered... so i enter the jungle! Even though i agree with lisa and would accept the terms of your policy i am just curious. Will you apply this to you? If you are late, will you pay extra? Even when expecting the unexpected one, can be late. Being on time is a way to pay respect to the others. It is not only professional but a part of education. But it is true that traffic is a big issue. However i understand your point of view but don't forget some photographers are flakes too! Shit happens both sides and with communication and education i guess everything can be resolved even without your written policy. Aug 03 17 04:08 pm Link |
