Forums > General Industry > CL Entrapment?

Artist/Painter

aquarelle

Posts: 2001

Chicago, Illinois, US

I have a post on Craigslist for a model for erotic art.  I received this response today:

"Do you require your subject to be 18 or will you work with younger? My daughter was instructed to find a figure artist to work with in order to improve her posing. Since you don't share photos or publish anything besides the finished art, we figure this might be a good one to try. Thank you."

Instructed by whom, I wonder. I'm guessing it's the police laying out some bait.

Or maybe someone trying to sell something fishy.

What's your take?

Mar 10 18 01:40 pm Link

Photographer

Jorge Kreimer

Posts: 3291

Los Angeles, California, US

Stay away, is my recommendation.

Mar 10 18 02:09 pm Link

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Model

MatureModelMM

Posts: 2616

Detroit, Michigan, US

Jorge Kreimer wrote:
Stay away, is my recommendation.

Stay FAR away.  In this day and age, no responsible parent would dream of going there.

Mar 10 18 02:23 pm Link

Artist/Painter

aquarelle

Posts: 2001

Chicago, Illinois, US

Jorge Kreimer wrote:
Stay away, is my recommendation.

That's good advice, Jorge.  I have no intention of responding to it.  I've always loved your work, by the way.

Mar 10 18 02:23 pm Link

Artist/Painter

aquarelle

Posts: 2001

Chicago, Illinois, US

MatureModelMM wrote:

Stay FAR away.  In this day and age, no responsible parent would dream of going there.

If it is a real parent and not the police, you really have to wonder.

Mar 10 18 02:31 pm Link

Photographer

Michael DBA Expressions

Posts: 3559

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

Absolutely RUN.

Under 18, no way, never, nope, not me, not you, go the hell away, not gonna happen.

Mar 10 18 02:59 pm Link

Photographer

Jorge Kreimer

Posts: 3291

Los Angeles, California, US

aquarelle wrote:

That's good advice, Jorge.  I have no intention of responding to it.  I've always loved your work, by the way.

Thank you. That's very kind. smile

Mar 10 18 03:07 pm Link

Photographer

Designit - Edward Olson

Posts: 1705

West Hollywood, California, US

aquarelle wrote:
I have a post on Craigslist for a model for erotic art.  I received this response today:

"Do you require your subject to be 18 or will you work with younger? My daughter was instructed to find a figure artist to work with in order to improve her posing. Since you don't share photos or publish anything besides the finished art, we figure this might be a good one to try. Thank you."

Instructed by whom, I wonder. I'm guessing it's the police laying out some bait.

Or maybe someone trying to sell something fishy.

What's your take?

Perhaps take it at face value and reply that you DO require subjects for erotic art to be 18, and that you find advice to find a figure artist to improve posing to be suspect. Advise her how if they do want to find an artist who will work with a minor on age-appropriate projects how they might do so (if you know of artists in the area).

That way, if it happens to be a very obtuse parent, you have covered yourself, and provided them with help in case they apply to another erotic artist and the wrong person replies.

Mar 10 18 04:06 pm Link

Photographer

Jorge Kreimer

Posts: 3291

Los Angeles, California, US

aquarelle wrote:

If it is a real parent and not the police, you really have to wonder.

It doesn’t matter.

Mar 10 18 04:13 pm Link

Photographer

Oaktree Pictorial

Posts: 22

Washington, District of Columbia, US

In case you weren’t aware, cops in many areas aggressively patrol sites like CL wanting to play “Catch a Predator”. When they bag someone, it’s always on the evening news.

I sometimes place model ads on CL just to see what will fall out of the sky. I’ve gotten several responses which are clearly entrapment attempts. For example , one respondent said,  “I hope you don’t mind I’m a little under your age range” (18+). When I asked when she would be 18 so I could order a cake, the response was a topless photo. End of that discussion.

Several responses have included a request for a photo of me. Sorry, I didn’t place a personals dating  ad.   When I said that to one prospective “model”, she replied by asking if she could just have a pic of my eyes. That’s like asking for a fingerprint; it can be run through police data bases. Before I could say “I smell a pig” the “model” blurted,. “I just want to f–k and get money. I’ve never had sex with a man before, only girls” Another chat thread aborted.

Do not ever be lured into any explicit discussion prior to an in-person meeting. Do not send back a photo of yourself. Do not agree to do anything beyond coming to a meet and greet  at Starbucks to discuss details of a photo shoot. Cops will not show up at such a meeting unless you have suggested a willingness to do something illegal - even if the idea came from them.

It’s a jungle out there.

Mar 10 18 04:31 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 4758

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

I have seen female artist who were under 18 years of age at sketch clubs that had nude models present.  One was very good.  I have not seen nude models under the age of 18. I am sure the state laws on this vary.  My understanding is that it is legal for a 16 year old to pose nude for artists renderings in PA.  I doubt that would extend to photos, though.  However, there are other laws that come into play: for instance, contributing to the delinquency of a minor.  I am sure they could find many other ways to prosecute you. 

As many have suggested, don't even respond.  If you chose to do so, you could refer her to college art departments or MM.  She can pose, just not nude.  And there ought to be a parent present, but even then, to me, just not worth the risk of working with a minor.

Mar 10 18 07:32 pm Link

Artist/Painter

aquarelle

Posts: 2001

Chicago, Illinois, US

As I've stated, I have no intention of responding to the reply.

Mar 10 18 08:01 pm Link

Photographer

dcsmooth

Posts: 1334

Detroit, Michigan, US

I posed nude for life drawing at 16, back when I was in the 10th grade in high school. That was more than 50 years ago. I would not advise anyone to become involved with a minor as a model in 2018 under any circumstances, whether it was as an artist or as a photographer.  Times have changed and community standards are a lot different than they used to be.

Mar 10 18 08:33 pm Link

Photographer

Oaktree Pictorial

Posts: 22

Washington, District of Columbia, US

>>My understanding is that it is legal for a 16 year old to pose nude for artists renderings in PA.>>

It's the federal child porn law you have to watch out for, It covers depictions of minors performing sex acts as you would expect, but also "lascivious exhibition of the genitals" of a minor. What exhibition of genitals is/is not "lascivious" ? I have no idea, but I'm very clear I don't want to have the debate sitting at the defense table in a federal courtroom.

Mar 10 18 11:47 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 4758

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

Oaktree Pictorial wrote:
>>My understanding is that it is legal for a 16 year old to pose nude for artists renderings in PA.>>

It's the federal child porn law you have to watch out for, It covers depictions of minors performing sex acts as you would expect, but also "lascivious exhibition of the genitals" of a minor. What exhibition of genitals is/is not "lascivious" ? I have no idea, but I'm very clear I don't want to have the debate sitting at the defense table in a federal courtroom.

Yes, which is why I said,  "I am sure they could find many other ways to prosecute you."  I do not think a consideration should be limited to ONLY anyone given law, when there are so many possibilities, many of which are vague and open to interpretation.  Looking at any single law, a person could decide, "Obviously, I am not breaking that law." and then get nailed with violations of x numbers of others.

There are many poses that do not include genitals, or even breast, such as the avatar of the OP.  However, what you point out is also a potential problem for 2257 with adults.  It may come down to the interpretation of a current or future AG or President, and how they wish to define what is lascivious.  I have known people to consider Vic Secret ads as porn.  If a person really doesn't want to have to sit at a federal defense table, then perhaps they shouldn't work with anyone under 21.  Maybe 25.  Or anyone that could be judged to be under 18, even if they are over 30.  There are many enduring pieces in art museums, which I would never consider painting, because of the potential legal consequences.  Such as anything that involves cherubs, Degas' "The Great Bath", perhaps either of those below.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/05/arts … ymphs.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai … 303e76d674

Mar 11 18 05:21 am Link

Photographer

Michael Fryd

Posts: 4982

Miami Beach, Florida, US

aquarelle wrote:
I have a post on Craigslist for a model for erotic art.  I received this response today:

"Do you require your subject to be 18 or will you work with younger? My daughter was instructed to find a figure artist to work with in order to improve her posing. Since you don't share photos or publish anything besides the finished art, we figure this might be a good one to try. Thank you."

Instructed by whom, I wonder. I'm guessing it's the police laying out some bait.

Or maybe someone trying to sell something fishy.

What's your take?

Thank you for your inquiry.

I am sorry, but models must be over 18 for erotic art projects.

If your minor daughter wants me to work with her on posing, it would need to be on a non-nude/non-erotic project, and a parent would need to be present.   My rates are $X.  I look forward to working with you and your daughter to improve her posing.



Make sure that you quote a high enough rate that you don't mind providing the training should this turn out to be real and they take you up on the offer.

On the other hand, if you have zero interest in non-nude/non-erotic projects, then al you need to say is "I am sorry, but models must be over 18 for erotic art projects."   There's a chance the inquiry is for real, in which case it's polite to respond.   If it is some sort of sting, then there is no harm in a polite response.

Mar 11 18 09:20 am Link

Artist/Painter

aquarelle

Posts: 2001

Chicago, Illinois, US

Michael Fryd wrote:
Thank you for your inquiry.

I am sorry, but models must be over 18 for erotic art projects.

If your minor daughter wants me to work with her on posing, it would need to be on a non-nude/non-erotic project, and a parent would need to be present.   My rates are $X.  I look forward to working with you and your daughter to improve her posing.


When I post on CL, I always ask that replies be accompanied by 2 photos.  If not, I don't reply back.  Saves a lot of "do you have any sample photos?" back and forth nonsense.  My posts have also provide all the information that is needed, including samples of my work. And since the response in question didn't provide any photos, I had no intention of replying anyway.  The shady aspect of it reinforced that.

Mar 11 18 04:52 pm Link

Photographer

C.C. Holdings

Posts: 765

San Francisco, California, US

aquarelle wrote:
I have a post on Craigslist for a model for erotic art.  I received this response today:

"Do you require your subject to be 18 or will you work with younger? My daughter was instructed to find a figure artist to work with in order to improve her posing. Since you don't share photos or publish anything besides the finished art, we figure this might be a good one to try. Thank you."

Instructed by whom, I wonder. I'm guessing it's the police laying out some bait.

Or maybe someone trying to sell something fishy.

What's your take?

It isn't inherently a legal issue (that would survive court scrutiny), but it also is not worth it.

Mar 12 18 12:29 am Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 13071

Des Moines, Iowa, US

I had a mother ask me if I would shoot her daughter years ago.  I simply replied I only worked with adult models. 

To me, this isn’t just an issue of someone who is underage or potential entrapment.  It’s also a matter of having another party involved, rather than just the model. I’ve learned that whenever a third party is involved, whether it’s a parent, escort or “manager”, the likelihood of complications goes up notably.  I prefer to work with models mature enough to represent themselves.  (I’m talking about independents, not agency models)

Mar 13 18 02:04 pm Link

Photographer

Matt Knowles

Posts: 3583

Ferndale, California, US

Sounds similar to an inquiry off of Craigslist that I received a while ago. She kept sending me photos that while not nude, were way more suggestive than I would've wanted a 17 year old to pose. She said she'd be 18 last December so I kept in touch postponing a shoot until then. She was really eager to shoot nudes, but her communication stopped once December hit and I actually tried to book a shoot with her.

Totally suspected it was law enforcement.

Cute little asian from what I could see, her pictures never showed her face, she didn't want me meeting her parents, and wouldn't talk on the phone.

Apr 05 18 02:21 pm Link