This thread was locked on 2018-08-29 12:14:59
Forums > Model Colloquy > Conversations on...well...modeling.

Photographer

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY

Posts: 6597

Uniontown, Pennsylvania, US

Top o' the page!


Shit storms like these probably keep the Models away.

carry on....

Aug 29 18 08:42 am Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 2342

Beverly Hills, California, US

I can see MM on the browse models end are useless if newbies can't message without friending first and vice versa and even if they respond for a friend  they don't respond to messages. I have better luck meeting  people on the street to be honest. And posting a comment in a forum is an exercise in futility...nasty intolerant always finding fault not willing to see the other point of view...Being in Los Angeles and most of California I eventually will run into some of you... if you've been a dick here  ...

Aug 29 18 09:01 am Link

Photographer

Derek Ridgers

Posts: 1625

London, England, United Kingdom

Laura UnBound wrote:
So y'all gonna talk about modeling then or just keep complaining that we got a separate forum you're not allowed to trash and that there are models out there who don't care about your opinions?

In the time that I’ve been on here (and also Purple Port) I’ve come to realise that the vast majority of models are just not interested in the opinions of photographers.

That even goes for the models I’ve worked with and, in a few cases, become friends with.

Models seem predominantly interested in the opinions of other models. Even the models who have a foot in both camps and become photographers themselves, usually seem more interested in the actual business of photography than the photography itself.

A very close friend who is a great model and an extremely talented fashion photographer has little interest in discussing photography itself.  She’s in her early 30s and, for instance, has never heard of Richard Avedon.

Why should she have? 

Her work is fresh and intuitive.  The chances are, she’s better off not knowing about the great photographers of the last Century.

Of course, there are exceptions. 

I’ve worked with a couple of models that had degrees in art history or photography and sometimes both.

They knew far more about those subjects than I ever will.

On the other hand, IMHO most decent photographers are interested in the opinions of models.  I don’t think you can be a decent photographer of people without some interest and/or empathy for your subjects.

I’m in my late 60s and I’ve learnt stuff from reading what you and Koryn have written on this forum that I’ve never ever heard person to person. 

The sorts of things that I’d never consider appropriate to discuss with any model, not even quite good friends.

This is why I feel it’s a real shame that Model Mayhem has neglected the Model Colloquy forum and let it degenerate into its current state.

Aug 29 18 09:06 am Link

Photographer

Carle Photo

Posts: 475

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Derek Ridgers wrote:
Models seem predominantly interested in the opinions of other models. Even the models who have a foot in both camps and become photographers themselves, usually seem more interested in the actual business of photography than the photography itself.

I feel I fall pretty hard in this camp....
My explanation is learning photography is pretty easy, there is information everywhere!
Forum posts, schools, classes, workshops, & many models spend so much time working in photo studios that we are able to pick up photography/lighting skills very fast.

I've worked for so many different photographers I have a pretty broad knowledge of photography, cameras, equipment, lighting.... I've had my hands on dozens of camera systems from Holgas to Phase 1 Systems.

As for business.... That is a bit harder to find good relevant information on.

Much of the information about business on MM is outdated, or applies to markets & genres I'm not interested in.

So I keep looking & asking, and trying to learn how to run a better business.

I've asked for a "business forum" since MM started, business is business, and modeling or photography the business aspects are very similar. At this point I know it won't happen, so I have found a few facebook groups that cater to my genre & market.

Aug 29 18 09:28 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Laura UnBound wrote:
So y'all gonna talk about modeling then or just keep complaining that we got a separate forum you're not allowed to trash and that there are models out there who don't care about your opinions?

No, we complain about models because of models like you who give us much more to complain about than there is bandwidth.  There's good models out there, ('ve had the pleasure of working with more than a few, and they have been awesome, but the bad ones, or the noise ones ruin it for all of us.  So, actually after thinking about it, go ahead, have your women only models only forum, complain all you want, cry me a river, and when you realize you've shot yourself in the foot and can't get any work, and go back to being an anonymous face in the crowd and nothing special, you may just realize what you've done.  Us photographers will still be shooting away.  You need us, we don't need you.  Don't like it?  Tough.

Aug 29 18 09:54 am Link

Photographer

Todd Meredith

Posts: 728

Fayetteville, North Carolina, US

Black Z Eddie wrote:
Oh, I think misunderstood, which you do quite often.  You are not doing the training.  You are the training.

Again, you crack me up, Ed!  Such wit and forethought.

Who taught you to speak English?  Tonto?

Don't look now, Ed, but your angst is showing...

Aug 29 18 09:57 am Link

Photographer

Carle Photo

Posts: 475

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Isaiah Brink wrote:
No, we complain about models because of models like you who give us much more to complain about than there is bandwidth.  There's good models out there, ('ve had the pleasure of working with more than a few, and they have been awesome, but the bad ones, or the noise ones ruin it for all of us.  So, actually after thinking about it, go ahead, have your women only models only forum, complain all you want, cry me a river, and when you realize you've shot yourself in the foot and can't get any work, and go back to being an anonymous face in the crowd and nothing special, you may just realize what you've done.  Us photographers will still be shooting away.  You need us, we don't need you.  Don't like it?  Tough.

You almost have it right....
None of us NEED each other, as an art model I work for:
Yes, photographers.... but also......

Sculpters
Painters
Fine artists
Mixed media artists
Glass artists
Body casting
Art workshops
Art schools

I am also hired to teach classes and workshops on various subjects.

Neither photography or modeling is dependant on each other, yes they do overlap, but they are not symbiotic.

Aug 29 18 10:01 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Ionalynn wrote:

You almost have it right....
None of us NEED each other, as an art model I work for:
Yes, photographers.... but also......

Sculpters
Painters
Fine artists
Mixed media artists
Glass artists
Body casting
Art workshops
Art schools

I am also hired to teach classes and workshops on various subjects.

Neither photography or modeling is dependant on each other, yes they do overlap, but they are not symbiotic.

Actually all but body casting does NOT need models in any way shape or form.  Most sculptors I know, including ones who have sculptures placed around the town I live in do not use models.  So, models are heavily dependent on photographers, and well, not so much with other art forms, but let's face it, I can photograph landscapes, just as the painter can as well.  A sculptor can sculpt an animal like a dog or a cat just as easily as a person.  I'm also considered a fine artist, and not one of the images I've had displayed in art galleries or permanent university collections or private collections have been of a model or person at all.  IF you really like modeling, start talking to other models about killing the ego's, and get better with communication or we'll just pass you by.  I wonder how many models who got their start here on MM have landed a gig with Vouge or Revlon.  I'm thinking none to not many at all.  Not even the good ones with good attitudes and good communication skills.  Agency models on the other hand, they're landed tons of magazine covers and contracts with Vouge, Revlone, etc......  MM is dying a fast and faster death.  Very experienced photographers are spending less and less time here, if any.

Aug 29 18 10:21 am Link

Photographer

Carle Photo

Posts: 475

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Good point, I have noticed since turning 40, I'm hired a bit less than the 18-22 old old models, I turn 42 this November.

Maybe I could learn photography & make a living doing that?

Sounds easier than modeling anyhow.

Aug 29 18 10:29 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Isaiah Brink wrote:

No, we complain about models because of models like you who give us much more to complain about than there is bandwidth.  There's good models out there, ('ve had the pleasure of working with more than a few, and they have been awesome, but the bad ones, or the noise ones ruin it for all of us.  So, actually after thinking about it, go ahead, have your women only models only forum, complain all you want, cry me a river, and when you realize you've shot yourself in the foot and can't get any work, and go back to being an anonymous face in the crowd and nothing special, you may just realize what you've done.  Us photographers will still be shooting away.  You need us, we don't need you.  Don't like it?  Tough.

Speak for Yourself

MM and Photographers do need mature, experienced , skilled models who think for themselves and advocate for themselves and thier profession

And its a good thing that they have their own forum to discuss modelling matters given how some of them have been treated here

Aug 29 18 10:40 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Ionalynn wrote:
Good point, I have noticed since turning 40, I'm hired a bit less than the 18-22 old old models, I turn 42 this November.

Maybe I could learn photography & make a living doing that?

Sounds easier than modeling anyhow.

Actually it's much harder than modeling.  Myself, I've put in 6 years worth of education combined with just over 30 years worth of experience.  It's also quite a bit more expensive than modeling.  There's camera equipment, computers, software, rent on not just your home, but possibly your business as well, if you have your own studio, there's a second electricity bill, another water bill, along with insurance costs, not health insurance, but workers compensation and business insurance, along with your normal income and local taxes a second time around, so, it's not cheap, and it's not easy.  It's also not overnight, you don't get established in a short amount of time......  And there's not guarantee for success either.  And there's not much money in working with models either.  But talk about weddings, and engagements, and baby pictures, and graduation pictures, that's where the money is at and if you open up shop, that's where you'll be spending your time.  I've done my share of that stuff.  Not my favorite, but you do what you have to do to get by.  And to think, I don't even have a studio thankfully, can't afford it.

Aug 29 18 10:41 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Garry k wrote:

Speak for Yourself

MM and Photographers do need mature, experienced , skilled models who think for themselves and advocate for themselves and thier profession

And its a good thing that they have their own forum to discuss modelling matters given how some of them have been treated here

So, you camera won't do landscapes?  Won't do weddings?  Huh, might want to get a refund then.  Or it could be, YOU can't do it.  White knights like you don't always know how to use their cameras to half of their potential.  MM may need them, but us photographers don't.  See, I'm a photographer,  you're a guy with a camera who wants to be around pretty women.

Aug 29 18 10:43 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Isaiah Brink wrote:
So, you camera won't do landscapes?  Won't do weddings?  Huh, might want to get a refund then.  Or it could be, YOU can't do it.  White knights like you don't always know how to use their cameras to half of their potential.  MM may need them, but us photographers don't.  See, I'm a photographer,  you're a guy with a camera who wants to be around pretty women.

At times like this I do miss The Pit  smile

I have tried a few things with my camera and don't really enjoy shooting many things - including portraits. weddings , events . food . animals .....But I have enjoyed shooting Fashion Shows , Models . World Music Concerts / Artists , Flowers and Mural Art......

You are being generous in saying that I am using my camera to half its potential ....its more like 25 percent ( lol ) and I shoot with a Rebel ( and am basically self taught )

But I understand what your intention is in making that accusation - So I am going to challenge You to join me in the Critique Sectiion to seek the memberships opinion on Who is the better photographer

Don't be shy now smile

Aug 29 18 11:01 am Link

Photographer

Carle Photo

Posts: 475

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Garry k wrote:
But I understand what your intention is in making that accusation - So I am going to challenge You to join me in the Critique Sectiion to seek the memberships opinion on Who is the better photographer

Don't be shy now smile

Can I join in? I know how to use a camera....

Aug 29 18 11:07 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Garry k wrote:

At times like this I do miss The Pit  smile

I have tried a few things with my camera and don't really enjoy shooting many things - including portraits. weddings , events . food . animals .....But I have enjoyed shooting Fashion Shows , Models . World Music Concerts / Artists , Flowers and Mural Art......

You are being generous in saying that I am using my camera to half its potential ....its more like 25 percent ( lol ) and I shoot with a Rebel ( and am basically self taught )

But I understand what your intention is in making that accusation - So I am going to challenge You to join me in the Critique Sectiion to seek the memberships opinion on Who is the better photographer

Don't be shy now smile

Me?  Shy?  You must be mistaken, but I know when I'm being setup.  I've been on this site for 11 years now and have never even been in that forum, and you want me to post in there just because you said so?  Nothing personal, but not a chance.  Sorry, I don't go searching for the approval of others to tell me my work is good.  I already know that, and have had much more qualified people tell me that than the norm here on MM.  Ok, I have had many people here on MM say my work is good, but I didn't have to go to a forum to behold that.  I've also been told I'm fun to work with despite what some of the models in this thread may think, and that's happened actually most of the time that I've worked with models from here, which is a decent sized list.  But, nice try, if you want to go in there, go ahead, at least the allow us pigs in there!

Aug 29 18 11:13 am Link

Photographer

Black Z Eddie

Posts: 1903

San Jacinto, California, US

Todd Meredith wrote:
Who taught you to speak English?  Tonto?

Don't look now, Ed, but your angst is showing...

Are you kddin' me, I'm enjoying the view...of you unraveling and having a nervous breakdown.  You're doing the very things you preach against.

Aug 29 18 11:19 am Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 2730

Los Angeles, California, US

Isaiah Brink wrote:

Me?  Shy?  You must be mistaken, but I know when I'm being setup.  I've been on this site for 11 years now and have never even been in that forum, and you want me to post in there just because you said so?  Nothing personal, but not a chance.  Sorry, I don't go searching for the approval of others to tell me my work is good.  I already know that, and have had much more qualified people tell me that than the norm here on MM.  Ok, I have had many people here on MM say my work is good, but I didn't have to go to a forum to behold that.  I've also been told I'm fun to work with despite what some of the models in this thread may think, and that's happened actually most of the time that I've worked with models from here, which is a decent sized list.  But, nice try, if you want to go in there, go ahead, at least the allow us pigs in there!

I looked at your link to facebook and you noted that models haven't followed through and it takes a while apparently for a model to show up so how do you supposed to be evaluated against someone who has Coca Rocha in their book and a number of agency models and does try and even asks people if they should retouch a certain way.  I think you're wise to bow out of comparison to a lot of people. Also you have insulted the work of others while placing yourself on Mount Olympus, or is Mount Fuji, Nikon or Canon? I have a thread that people haven't visited in a while but it is packed with evaluations. I think it is called: Could you survive in L.A. except for Select people took it very well. I gave grades including homeless in LA. A model who submitted there after I criticized her website decided to take modelling really seriously and lives and works in London. Another went into fitness. Who knows what will happen for you. I'll try and dig up the link for you.

Aug 29 18 11:35 am Link

Photographer

Carle Photo

Posts: 475

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

Isaiah Brink wrote:
Actually it's much harder than modeling.  Myself, I've put in 6 years worth of education combined with just over 30 years worth of experience.  It's also quite a bit more expensive than modeling.  There's camera equipment, computers, software, rent on not just your home, but possibly your business as well, if you have your own studio, there's a second electricity bill, another water bill, along with insurance costs, not health insurance, but workers compensation and business insurance, along with your normal income and local taxes a second time around, so, it's not cheap, and it's not easy.  It's also not overnight, you don't get established in a short amount of time......  And there's not guarantee for success either.  And there's not much money in working with models either.  But talk about weddings, and engagements, and baby pictures, and graduation pictures, that's where the money is at and if you open up shop, that's where you'll be spending your time.  I've done my share of that stuff.  Not my favorite, but you do what you have to do to get by.  And to think, I don't even have a studio thankfully, can't afford it.

If your having trouble with profitable photography markets, that are NOT weddings & babies, here are a few links that might help you:

https://jezebel.com/boudoir-photographe … 1131614432

https://www.sheknows.com/love-and-sex/a … exy-photos

https://nypost.com/2013/08/13/guys-just … c-torials/

https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/04/05/ … ainstream/

https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainm … niversary/

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/busi … ng-markets

https://www.seattleerotic.org/interact- … allations/

Aug 29 18 11:36 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Isaiah Brink wrote:
Actually all but body casting does NOT need models in any way shape or form.  Most sculptors I know, including ones who have sculptures placed around the town I live in do not use models.  So, models are heavily dependent on photographers, and well, not so much with other art forms, but let's face it, I can photograph landscapes, just as the painter can as well.  A sculptor can sculpt an animal like a dog or a cat just as easily as a person.  I'm also considered a fine artist, and not one of the images I've had displayed in art galleries or permanent university collections or private collections have been of a model or person at all.  IF you really like modeling, start talking to other models about killing the ego's, and get better with communication or we'll just pass you by.  I wonder how many models who got their start here on MM have landed a gig with Vouge or Revlon.  I'm thinking none to not many at all.  Not even the good ones with good attitudes and good communication skills.  Agency models on the other hand, they're landed tons of magazine covers and contracts with Vouge, Revlone, etc......  MM is dying a fast and faster death.  Very experienced photographers are spending less and less time here, if any.

In posting such opinions I wonder if You have even ever met an Agency Model

I have met a few hundred ( as well as a few hundred MM Models ) and in general do not see significant differences in personal attitude and character between the 2 groups . Agency Models of course must meet certain prerequisites ( age . height . look etc ) tend to be younger , are managed by an agent ( who develops them as models . connects them with paying opportunities in the modelling field and holds them accoutable / responsible with respect to their modelling efforts ) Non Agency Models basically often try to accompish the same goals on their own ( with varying degrees of success )

My current Avatar Shot was taken a decade ago of an aspiring Model in my city ....She had a love for fashion and modelling but no real plan to make a career of it .She could easily have continued her highschooling ( and continued on to University as was her plan ) and maybe kept modelling as a hobby ....maybe even joined MM

But her Agent has another vision for her . He sent her to New York where she was " discovered " by a Vogue Photographer - and as a result  She became a SuperModel ( Million Dollar Fashion and Perfume Campaigns . Dozens of Magazine Covers including many Vogues) Oh and she became the first Top Model to really utilize Social Media

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utQUggA52M4

But as I said - Without that Agent Coco may well have ended as a Hobbyiist Model on MM ( and I have known many young women with similar personalities that have been on this site

Its also worth noting that the Modelling Agencies in my city generally do  not allow their models to be members of this site . Not because they are afraid of their models picking up any so called  bad attitudes from other models ( as some here  might think ) but because these agencies are concerned about maintaining their Models image ( not diminishing it with poor photography ) and of course keeping their models safe

Aug 29 18 11:42 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Isaiah Brink wrote:

Me?  Shy?  You must be mistaken, but I know when I'm being setup.  I've been on this site for 11 years now and have never even been in that forum, and you want me to post in there just because you said so?  Nothing personal, but not a chance.  Sorry, I don't go searching for the approval of others to tell me my work is good.  I already know that, and have had much more qualified people tell me that than the norm here on MM.  Ok, I have had many people here on MM say my work is good, but I didn't have to go to a forum to behold that.  I've also been told I'm fun to work with despite what some of the models in this thread may think, and that's happened actually most of the time that I've worked with models from here, which is a decent sized list.  But, nice try, if you want to go in there, go ahead, at least the allow us pigs in there!

Oh come on ...Man Up Isaaih

smile

You have attempted to insult me and now wont accept my challenge

lol

Aug 29 18 11:45 am Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 2730

Los Angeles, California, US

For Isaiah: I have evaluated some of the best photographers here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/845182

Aug 29 18 11:46 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

LA StarShooter wrote:

I looked at your link to facebook and you noted that models haven't followed through and it takes a while apparently for a model to show up so how do you supposed to be evaluated against someone who has Coca Rocha in their book and a number of agency models and does try and even asks people if they should retouch a certain way.  I think you're wise to bow out of comparison to a lot of people. Also you have insulted the work of others while placing yourself on Mount Olympus, or is Mount Fuji, Nikon or Canon? I have a thread that people haven't visited in a while but it is packed with evaluations. I think it is called: Could you survive in L.A. except for Select people took it very well. I gave grades including homeless in LA. A model who submitted there after I criticized her website decided to take modelling really seriously and lives and works in London. Another went into fitness. Who knows what will happen for you. I'll try and dig up the link for you.

Thanks but I've survived in a much tougher area known as New York.  Thanks for playing.  And ok you don't like my work, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.  Doesn't mean everybody agrees with you, but you're still entitled to it.  I'm sure some people agree with you and some don't.  I'm sure some people love your work, and some, well, could do without it, just like my opinions and my work.  Opinions and photography being artwork is subjective.  Myself, I don't care to ask others what they think, that's me.  If you want too, or value your own opinion above others, that's fine.  I won't be one asking you what you think though, nothing personal.  NEXT!

Aug 29 18 11:52 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Garry k wrote:

Oh come on ...Man Up Isaaih

smile

You have attempted to insult me and now wont accept my challenge

lol

I wouldn't call it a challenge personally, but whatever.  Like I said, haven't been in there in 11 years, not gonna start now.  Thanks for playing mr white knight!

Aug 29 18 11:53 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

LA StarShooter wrote:
For Isaiah: I have evaluated some of the best photographers here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/845182

Ok LA Shooter, the best in who's opinion?  Yours?  Ok, that's fine.  I'm not out to find out what your opinion on my work is.  I'm confident enough in my own work not too need somebody else' input or  be patted on the back and have my ass kissed by others.  I don't do it for you or them, just myself, because it's something I really enjoy doing, and that's that.  Nothing you say about the supposed "best" which once again is your opinion, could want me to have your opinion or critique of my work any more.  Geez, at least the other guy Gary at least invited me or maybe it was a so called challenge me to submit work in the critique section.

Aug 29 18 11:56 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

LA StarShooter wrote:
For Isaiah: I have evaluated some of the best photographers here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/845182

I Love these kind of threads

my general feeling though is maybe I am at the Park Bench Level ...lol

I will play

Aug 29 18 11:58 am Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2328

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Garry k wrote:

In posting such opinions I wonder if You have even ever met an Agency Model

I have met a few hundred ( as well as a few hundred MM Models ) and in general do not see significant differences in personal attitude and character between the 2 groups . Agency Models of course must meet certain prerequisites ( age . height . look etc ) tend to be younger , are managed by an agent ( who develops them as models . connects them with paying opportunities in the modelling field and holds them accoutable / responsible with respect to their modelling efforts ) Non Agency Models basically often try to accompish the same goals on their own ( with varying degrees of success )

My current Avatar Shot was taken a decade ago of an aspiring Model in my city ....She had a love for fashion and modelling but no real plan to make a career of it .She could easily have continued her highschooling ( and continued on to University as was her plan ) and maybe kept modelling as a hobby ....maybe even joined MM

But her Agent has another vision for her . He sent her to New York where she was " discovered " by a Vogue Photographer - and as a result  She became a SuperModel ( Million Dollar Fashion and Perfume Campaigns . Dozens of Magazine Covers including many Vogues) Oh and she became the first Top Model to really utilize Social Media

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utQUggA52M4

But as I said - Without that Agent Coco may well have ended as a Hobbyiist Model on MM ( and I have known many young women with similar personalities that have been on this site

Its also worth noting that the Modelling Agencies in my city generally do  not allow their models to be members of this site . Not because they are afraid of their models picking up any so called  bad attitudes from other models ( as some here  might think ) but because these agencies are concerned about maintaining their Models image ( not diminishing it with poor photography ) and of course keeping their models safe

With the models I've worked with, mind you I know they represent a small percentage of the models here on MM, like you are very similar to agency models in attitude.  But there have been a few I've been contacted by or encountered here on MM that fall far short of the professional attitude that we have seemed to find in agency models or the more positive MM model.

Aug 29 18 11:59 am Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 2730

Los Angeles, California, US

Garry k wrote:
I Love these kind of threads

my general feeling though is maybe I am at the Park Bench Level ...lol

I will play

If you would post all the links outside of MM that you would want me to look at, on that thread that would be very helpful.

Aug 29 18 12:12 pm Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 2730

Los Angeles, California, US

Aug 29 18 12:13 pm Link