FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I assume the fetal position.

haha, I would prefer that to the "bend over and grab your ankles" position I feel I've been put into....

Znude! wrote:
Or do what I do. Always book a shoot near something else you would enjoy photographing. I love architectural shots so I book near something I would enjoy shooting like that and when they don't shot I switch gears and shoot that instead.

Great tip!

Air Portraits wrote:
..., but realistically unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.

That aint gonna happen.
MM isn't a judge or arbitrator of personal disputes,

Air Portraits wrote:
So how do you deal with this?

When it's happened, I treat myself to a movie or a nice meal. Then I eliminate that model from my contact list.

unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.

Not a chance that MM will intervene. Do you have small claims courts in Germany?

There has got to be a better way!!!! So I'm curious, what would you do?

When I have a shoot at a location that's hard to get or costs money and I'm shooting with a model I don't know, I schedule it to be a multi-model shoot. Then if one model doesn't show up, I get to spend that lost time with the other model[s].

I normally don't reschedule with a no-call/no-show model. I've done it only once.

When I have a shoot at a location that's hard to get or costs money and I'm shooting with a model I don't know, I schedule it to be a multi-model shoot. Then if one model doesn't show up, I get to spend that lost time with the other model[s].

Great idea.... Thanks

Air Portraits wrote:
haha, I would prefer that to the "bend over and grab your ankles" position I feel I've been put into....

I typically don't have a large cash investment, some, but not a lot.  What I do invest is time and energy styling wardrobe, creating sets or coming up with outdoor locations, when things go South it can be devastating.

I've experienced flaking but never had a no call, no show to a shoot. The call usually comes the Morning of or an Hour or 2 prior even after a confirmation the Day before,  which hits hard.

Air Portraits wrote:
Yes, I have a contract with her stating we'll both pay the other in this kind of situation, but realistically unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.

one hopes that it was a decently crafted contract, with the looser paying all legal expenses... in that case, why not enforce this contract? what did the mm site to in order to incur this tort? you contacted the model, you made the agreements and details with the model, the model was the other party in the agreement. this mm site is only a listing service. could you ask the telephone company to step up and reimburse you because this was over the phone? if the amount is a problem for you - enforce the contract.

don't spend money on a new, unknown model

Darren Brade wrote:
Start by sending her an invoice as per the contract. But raally, why are people making contracts that they don't know how to or cannot enforce?

If she did not show, breaking her words. What makes you think that piece of paper would do anything?

Chuckarelei wrote:
If she did not show, breaking her words. What makes you think that piece of paper would do anything?

A commitment on paper and signed is more enforceable than a verbal agreement, which carries a certain deniability.

However, the OP hasn't said if he's got the option of small-claims court in his country, or if he's even going to pursue that route.

Air Portraits wrote:
Yes I have a strong and valid contract stating her liability and that she has to pay fees for collection/enforcement, and yes we have something similar to SCC here in Germany. Navigating it is not as easy as in the states, so...
No, I'm not going to pursue it as it would also require a lot of time and stress and lawyer's fees upfront and then to collect....

Mostly I use the contract as a way of flushing out unserious models - I've had a few say they don't want that clause in and I remind them that it means nothing if all goes well and protects them also, if for any reason I am unable to make it. This usually works. But when a model insists, then I don't work with her.

I guess it really comes down to accepting I cannot control it and I am out significant time and energy and a little money - and that sucks!

Yes, I can talk with other photographers here, but in reality that also makes little difference to her as she will always find people who do not know me or with whom I have not spoken...

Thank God it doesn't happen often....

Obviously signing contracts you're not able to/wiloing to enforce is still a waste of time. A lot of people know this so it's not really a deterrent at all (as proven here). People sign agreeing knowing that the amount of money it would  cost to enforce makes it a safe bet you can drop out of.

Todd Meredith wrote:
time spent chasing down an attorney to represent him in this matter

Small claims court doesn't require the involvement of an attorney. That's the whole point of SCC.

Orca Bay Images wrote:

Small claims court doesn't require the involvement of an attorney. That's the whole point of SCC.

Good point but it doesn't negate the time and effort spent trying to recoup what in reality is a minimal amount of money.  Personally, I feel my time and stress are worth more than what I would get back from a case like this one.  We've all been there and there's no contract or other agreement that will stop No shows from happening.  As I stated before, most models won't even have the assets to pay what the court awards, so what's the point.  You show up with a good, solid case, contract in hand, she cries, the judge feels sorry for her and you look like the hard ass trying to squeeze her for a few hundred bucks, even though you're 100% in the right.  Is it worth damaging your reputation?

Air Portraits wrote:
When I have a shoot at a location that's hard to get or costs money and I'm shooting with a model I don't know, I schedule it to be a multi-model shoot. Then if one model doesn't show up, I get to spend that lost time with the other model[s].
Great idea.... Thanks

-
Going back to your original posting, one of the problems here in the States-right now, is that it's a Holiday, Thanksgiving. Not sure if the majority of people even know what that's about, or just a shopping day. During Holidays, it's often hard to get models,,,and yes, they also don't reply here many times.

Also, we also try to do group shoots, with more than 1 model to cover ourselves. The problem is sometimes they all show up, and we have a lot to do. There's been a few times we too many models, and they had to wait 1 hour for their turn.

Air Portraits wrote:
--snip--
Not only is it frustrating and rude, it means I'm out significant time and money. Yes, I have a contract with her stating we'll both pay the other in this kind of situation, but realistically unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.
--snip--
So I'm curious, what would you do?

Send her an invoice detailing the expenses incurred along with the copy of the contract. Then forget about ever seeing the money or model again.

Air Portraits wrote:
So, after years of this not happening, today I am stuck sitting in a rented studio with no model....
No messages, mails, texts...... nothing. And no answers.
Worst, we confirmed again yesterday and she said she would be here at 11:00.....

So how do you deal with this?

Not only is it frustrating and rude, it means I'm out significant time and money. Yes, I have a contract with her stating we'll both pay the other in this kind of situation, but realistically unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.

There has got to be a better way!!!!

So I'm curious, what would you do?

Use a modeling agency and use an agency model.

CaliModels wrote:
Also, we also try to do group shoots, with more than 1 model to cover ourselves. The problem is sometimes they all show up, and we have a lot to do. There's been a few times we too many models, and they had to wait 1 hour for their turn.

FTR, that was my suggestion to the OP.

I've never scheduled more models in a session than I could handle in case all showed. The most I've done by myself was three. I had a MUAH there who ran her own shop and she had the good sense to bring an assistant to gain some experience All three models showed. One showed up a little late, but that turned out to be serendipitous,. This gave each idle model just enough time to pick out the next look's wardrobe (we were shooting in a bridal/prom shop and we had the shop's entire stock to choose from) and time to get hair and makeup done. It resulted in a rotation that worked out perfectly for each model, though I didn't get a break for six hours (no complaint there).

I once participated in a group shoot scheduled for twelve models, five MUAHs and two photographers. Three of the models and one of the MUAHs didn't show and it was perfect. A little crazy for us photographers, but a great day.

(The man wasn't one of the twelve invited models, but a spur-of-the-moment addition, as he brought the motorcycles for the shoot.)

Air Portraits wrote:
So, after years of this not happening, today I am stuck sitting in a rented studio with no model....
No messages, mails, texts...... nothing. And no answers.
Worst, we confirmed again yesterday and she said she would be here at 11:00.....

So how do you deal with this?

Not only is it frustrating and rude, it means I'm out significant time and money. Yes, I have a contract with her stating we'll both pay the other in this kind of situation, but realistically unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.

There has got to be a better way!!!!

So I'm curious, what would you do?

I am a victim of this also.
What did I do? Let it go, but I have also told fellow photographers not to do business with her.

Orca Bay Images wrote:
Small claims court doesn't require the involvement of an attorney. That's the whole point of SCC.

Todd Meredith wrote:
Good point but it doesn't negate the time and effort spent trying to recoup what in reality is a minimal amount of money.  Personally, I feel my time and stress are worth more than what I would get back from a case like this one.  We've all been there and there's no contract or other agreement that will stop No shows from happening.  As I stated before, most models won't even have the assets to pay what the court awards, so what's the point.  You show up with a good, solid case, contract in hand, she cries, the judge feels sorry for her and you look like the hard ass trying to squeeze her for a few hundred bucks, even though you're 100% in the right.  Is it worth damaging your reputation?

i have, for the most part, had decent clients. once in a while, you will get a bad one no matter how much checking and careful business practice you do. in the case where the money was enough to warrant action, i have resorted to small claims. like all government agencies, especially legal ones, the hoop jumping was exacting and not too difficult. they try to make the mechanics of the legal stuff reasonable and i got equitable relief for my troubles (including fees and expenses). it's not like criminal court.

for a hundred usd or so, it's probably not worth it for most. for a couple of hundred or closer to a thousand, it could be. the court allows for the discovery of financial status and collection if you win.

Isaiah Brink wrote:

Use a modeling agency and use an agency model.

While I get your point for most photographers using agency models won't work.  Why?  Most agencies won't want their models to do nudes which is a lot of what the OP seems to shoot.  They also will likely ask for a lot of $$$ even if they let their models shoot.  Worse in a sense many will not let their models sign a release of any sort.   Sadly there isn't a lot he can do.   Going forward I suggest only renting studio space, etc. with vetted models.  I looked at the OP's work and its very good.  My feeling is with a bit more networking he could find reliable decent models to shoot.   While MM is popular here maybe, https://purpleport.com/ might be a better option for shooters in Europe.  I also looked at his linked portfolio and he has some SOLID material.

What I would do is take some non nude shots especially a few of his beautiful head shots to local agencies.  What may happen is they will send him new models.  Once you are on a rounds list models will find him.  So its clear.   The idea may be to approach agencies to test models.   It usually can't be nude.  Many if not most WILL not send models to photographers they don't know even if its for paid work for models.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

While I get your point for most photographers using agency models won't work.  Why?  Most agencies won't want their models to do nudes which is a lot of what the OP seems to shoot.  They also will likely ask for a lot of $$$ even if they let their models shoot.  Worse in a sense many will not let their models sign a release of any sort.   Sadly there isn't a lot he can do.   Going forward I suggest only renting studio space, etc. with vetted models.  I looked at the OP's work and its very good.  My feeling is with a bit more networking he could find reliable decent models to shoot.   While MM is popular here maybe, https://purpleport.com/ might be a better option for shooters in Europe.  I also looked at his linked portfolio and he has some SOLID material.

What I would do is take some non nude shots especially a few of his beautiful head shots to local agencies.  What may happen is they will send him new models.  Once you are on a rounds list models will find him.  So its clear.   The idea may be to approach agencies to test models.   It usually can't be nude.  Many if not most WILL not send models to photographers they don't know even if its for paid work for models.

Well freelance models ask for boatloads of money to do nudes, so where's the difference?  The difference is that the agency model will be a bit more reliable and show up.  Gotta remember, most of us DON'T do nudes.  Just many here on MM do nudes, but that does not reflect the majority of photographers or professional photographers as a whole.  And the OP did not ask fora critique of his work, so I will not violate forum rules and offer an unsolicited critique.  I figure he or she has some work up and it is what it is.  But take care, and keep shooting!

Deep Visions wrote:
If you're going to invest $$$ on a studio then invest $$$ on a professional model

^^^

Most of us cant afford to have a reputation for blowing off shoots.

Air Portraits wrote:
So, after years of this not happening, today I am stuck sitting in a rented studio with no model....
No messages, mails, texts...... nothing. And no answers.
Worst, we confirmed again yesterday and she said she would be here at 11:00.....

So how do you deal with this?

Not only is it frustrating and rude, it means I'm out significant time and money. Yes, I have a contract with her stating we'll both pay the other in this kind of situation, but realistically unless MM can step in and help me recover, I doubt I'll see any compensation.

There has got to be a better way!!!!

So I'm curious, what would you do?

Trade shoots? Hobbiest (like me), allways have a plan b hobbie (mine is golf).

Pro, with a client counting on you, spend more upfrint, on a pro model or use a proven "turnerupper".

Laura UnBound wrote:

^^^

Most of us cant afford to have a reputation for blowing off shoots.

Yes, you are correct.  Most of us on either side of the camera can't afford to have that type of reputation.  We've all had no shows on both sides of the camera, and they suck, they waste time and energy that could have been spent doing something else.  And they are of course very frustrating especially if you get more than one in a short amount of time, which does happen.  But we need to move on and keep going right?  And we have to realize that they are the exception to the norm not the norm.  I just wish I could get away from the huge ego's and bad attitudes that is poisoning this industry.  But that's my irritant lately.

Isaiah Brink wrote:
Well freelance models ask for boatloads of money to do nudes, so where's the difference?  The difference is that the agency model will be a bit more reliable and show up.

Freelance models are a LOT cheaper than an agency model who will always come with agency fees on top of that boatload.

Also they don't just let anyone shoot their models even if they have the money to pay since MM is the bottom of the barrell to them. A photographer that only exists here shooting nudes probably won't get a look in.

However there are a few "agencies" where someone collects freelance models on the hope to get them work, but they are subject to the same problems as hiring direct from MM.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Darren Brade has said it well.   Even if an agency would send models it could cost many hundreds of dollars per hour.   So its clear, agencies typically bill clients and unless you have a business license and are known to them and can show that you will pay its unlikely they would send anyone.  Some might say well the photographer could pay before the session but that just isn't how agencies work.   Frankly if I could I'd pay every model I shot but I simply don't have the money and I think I speak for many other photographers here.   That said I also get how models feel.   Photos no matter how nice won't pay bills.  There is no easy answer.  Renting a studio, etc. comes with some risks models will flake even if you are paying them.  Models also take risks accepting paid sessions only to not get what they were promised.   

I will repeat this.   The OP has good work and my feeling is with some networking and going to  fashion shows and hitting up model groups on Facebook would find more dependable models.   Perhaps offering incentives like paid travel from cities close to him might also help.   I can't speak on Germany but I could have found models when I went to a few countries in Europe a few years ago.   That's another story though...

Broad Generalizations about Agencies are not very helpful

I have been shooting  creatives with one agency in my area where I have paid $100 per shoot ( plus 15 percent commission ) other agencies would allow me to use their Models for free if I shoot High Fashion with a Full Team ( No thanks ) Still other Agencies wont give me the time of day - and i have no idea what thats about

But I generallly prefer not to deal with Agencies

I have had good success with Agency Models who are Free to find their own work ( and most of my port is filled with such )again in the $100 range per shoot ... Some Agencies however are very controlling ove who their Models work with

All the Models in my Portfolio and Bio Page here ( except for 4 Models ) were Agency Models that I shot with - without the involvement of their Agency

Being the principle photgrapher ( then director of photography ) for my city's Fashion Week for nearly 15 years really helped me in finding Models ( and many aspiring Models that did not cost me anything to shoot with )


and Yes ( in my experience ) most Agencies don't have a lot of respect for this site ....

Air Portraits wrote:
So I'm curious, what would you do?

1.  I realize independent models are not agency models and are much more likely to cancel or flake.  If I was doing expensive commercial shoots, I’d hire agency models, but that’s not what I’m doing.   

2.  I get a phone number at booking.   Models who know they aren’t serious will be reluctant to give their phone number.   

3.  I do an email confirmation about 3 days prior and a phone call confirmation a couple hours prior.   At this point it’s too late to get an other model, but at least m not waiting around after shoot start time wondering.   

4.  I never invest anything into a single shoot I’m not happy to lose.   I don’t rent studio space, I don’t hire a MUA, and I don’t give up anything important.  I never put myself in a position I need the photos in a timely manner.    I make alternative plans for my time.  Basically, I consider it a bonus if the model follows through.   

If I’ve personally gotten to know a model well, onl6 then may I depart from the above.