Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Sorry everyone, having read all your responses saying that it's not a straight (A) or (B) answer, I've decided to heed your opinions and edit/correct/simplify my question.
The premise for my question is based on an article in which a model had written that when she receives a modelling offer from a photographer, to help her decide whether or not to accept their offer, she would judge the photographer's quality of work by the worst, not the best, picture in their portfolio.
She said, she would pick out what she considered to be the worst picture in the photographer's portfolio. She would then try to imagine that it was a picture of her. If she was comfortable with the idea of it being a picture her, then she would agree to model for that photographer. If not, she would politely turn down the photographer's modelling offer.
So "Should a model choose a photographer by the best, or worst, picture in a photographer’s portfolio and why?"
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30129
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
If I were a Model - I would choose based on quality and consistency
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Garry k wrote:
If I were a Model - I would choose based on quality and consistency 
Correct!
Here's my opinion... every photographer has shot some images that are not "the best".
If a photographer has a huge range from great to mediocre to gag-reflex causing images in a portfolio, that would give the impression that either the photographer is getting lucky with a few good shots, or the photographer has no understanding what makes a good photo and especially a bad photo that should be left on the cutting floor and not in a portfolio.
If a portfolio contains great and good photos, there may be photos that are good, but doesn't speak to a viewer's particular aesthetics.
So, Garry said it with shorter words, I only expanded on it: Quality and Consistency should guide the decision.
Btw., I've just shot one of my all-time favorite photos three weeks ago with a Greek celebrity in NYC for HELLO! Magazine (Greece), which got published yesterday (print)
I have that shot as my FB cover photo, will be on my IG later today, oh and shot the cover as well.
Here's my problem... I am literally up to two years behind in updating my own website... so, before I can put those sets up... I'd have to revamp my website and add all the other publications and shoot and behind the scene videos first..., because of that mountain of updates I would have to do, it may never end up on my own website...
My advantage is that I don't have to show a stellar portfolio, especially not on MM, so I have certain exceptions, but the above said, for what models should use to select a photographer is still valid.
Happy shooting!
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
udor wrote:
every photographer has shot some images that are not "the best". My strike rate for good shots isn't high, but unlike in the days of analogue films where every bad shot you took was another dollar wasted.
Today you can shoot and keep on shooting until you see on your camera that you've got the shot you're after.
Furthermore it no longer costs an arm and a leg in film stock. Being an amateur there were times when it was hard to justify the cost of shooting too many rolls of film, especially if/when they all came back looking so bad that you were too embarrassed to show the model. Or worst still, they had their eyes closed, or blinked, in the only shot they liked.
Yeah digital! (and for Photoshop, that now allows closed eyes to be opened so easily)
Btw: Good and understandable answers, but they don't correctly address the (A) or (B) options that are available.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Garry k wrote:
If I were a Model - I would choose based on quality and consistency Even if a model was to pick the worst picture in your portfolio, I'm certain they would be tripping over themselves wanting to be that model.
The quality and consistency of your portfolio speaks volumes for itself (and you) ... it is simply outstanding!
Photographer
Sliver-Sliver
Posts: 175
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Camera Buff wrote:
Btw: Good and understandable answers, but they don't correctly address the (A) or (B) options that are available. That’s because the premise is flawed based on assumptions. For example, you’re assuming that the quality of the images even matters to the model at all, when many models have stated that they don’t really care if the final photos are eye-bleachingly bad as long as they’re appropriately paid for their time, effort, experience and talent.
Camera Buff wrote:
Should ... You’ll quickly discover that there are very few universal shoulds in internet modeling & photography. Models (and photographers and retouchers and MUAs etc.) are individuals, and as such, make decisions based on their individual wants, needs, and priorities. Since you can’t possibly know what each model’s priorities are, and because those aren’t likely to be exactly the same as another model’s, creating a universal A or B scenario is unrealistic.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
On websites like this does it even matter when most of the models aren't agency standard and like us, largely hobbyists. Lets also understand what is considered good is often subjective. There are members here who produce the same boring crap shoot after shoot and people love their work. If I were a model I'd look for photographers who didn't always play it safe. I'd focus on artists rather then journeymen. I mean those shooters who took chances. However there is something to be said by focusing on people who are consistent. In my view the idea is to try and shoot with everyone you can. Models shouldn't be afraid to offer suggestions for locations, poses, clothes and even lighting. In many cases models know more about photography then those they work with.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
I don't post my more spectacular images on Model Mayhem because they might be stolen from the site.
Photographer
goofus
Posts: 808
Santa Barbara, California, US
one could ask the same with regard to models
she might have one fabulous photo in her book and the rest: meh
should I go by that one pix?? or the rest?
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Sliver-Sliver wrote:
That’s because the premise is flawed based on assumptions. For example, you’re assuming that the quality of the images even matters to the model at all, when many models have stated that they don’t really care if the final photos are eye-bleachingly bad as long as they’re appropriately paid for their time, effort, experience and talent. And that response is based on a faulty premise as well. It may apply to models working only for monetary remuneration, but it certainly doesn't apply to models open to trade. The models willing to trade definitely will be judging the quality of a photographer's work because images are the medium of that exchange.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
Many models only care about pay, making the worst or best irrelevant.
A shoot however is about the best images produced. Nobody is obligated to use any images that don’t come out well or they don’t like.
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 23769
Orlando, Florida, US
I'm hoping it's B . . . that way if I do anything better than that I gotta be a hero . . . don't I . . .  As a long time creative it always astounds me that if I send 3 comps of an idea to a client, they inevitably pick my least favourite as the direction they want ta go . . . sometimes ya havta fight tooth and nail to get them ta see the other direction as a better alternative . . . I guess it is truly "in the eye of the beholder"! SOS
Photographer
Julietsdream
Posts: 868
Burbank, California, US
Orca Bay Images wrote:
The models willing to trade definitely will be judging the quality
of a photographer's work because images are the medium of that exchange. +1
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Many models only care about pay, making the worst or best irrelevant. ....*I don't shoot those models...the *Best* models I have shot with...are trade
Abbitt Photography wrote:
A shoot however is about the best images produced. +1
*When I go to look for a model.......I always go by.....'can she/he evoke emotion'....then I want to shoot with you, it doesn't matter what's in your port....all I need to see is one or two good shots of the face...I can usually tell, if I want to shoot with them..!!
...As far as them shooting with me....I would assume...they are looking overall at the images in my portfolio...not just the best or the worst.....but as a whole...!!...If it's meant to be, the right people connect with each other...whether it's one time, or many shoots together......( I will admit...I have my favorite models I like to shoot with over and over again...why...because we 'get it'...we get each other and the results always come out Great)..!! ....I am always looking for *Beautiful*...with poetry in the eyes...not all can see it...but I can..!!...We each have different desires of what we seek....luckily...there are literally...thousands+ of choices...for both photographer and model.....!!
Photographer
E Thompson Photography
Posts: 719
Hyattsville, Maryland, US
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I don't post my more spectacular images on Model Mayhem because they might be stolen from the site. So you populate your portfolio with mediocre images so as not to have your "good" images stolen. Do you believe that's been a successful approach for you?
Model
Rachel Jay
Posts: 20441
Nashville, Tennessee, US
It's not as easy as A or B, though. When I'm looking for a photographer I ask myself the following:
Do they shoot the style I am looking for?
Does their sampling of work demonstrate consistency in shooting what I am looking for?
If there is consistency, is it the quality of work I am seeking?
Does their portfolio show a range of models, or is it just 1 or 2 people?
Is there an external link where I can see more of their work, and how does that answer the above questions?
And of course, after I ask all that, I check references. I always ask these questions when doing so:
What are they like to work with?
Do they deliver work as promised and on time?
Would you work with them again?
Model
Alexandra Vincent
Posts: 308
Asheville, North Carolina, US
This is not an "a or b" question, as more factors come into play.
If we are talking about trade, I am more prone to look at the photographer's "credited photos" that appear in other models'portfolios. Often, the images a photographer chooses to post in his/her own portfolio do not realistically represent what a model can expect to receive back from TFP. However, what appears in the portfolios of models they've previously worked with reveals a great deal about what you will most likely receive from a trade shoot. I recently turned down a shoot with someone whose own portfolio was quite impressive, yet their "credited photo" link led to a collection of shots of models with the tops of their heads chopped off, missing hands and feet, and blown highlights.
A highly curated portfolio is great, though it does not account for variables, such as when a photographer"s "best" work was shot at a workshop, where the lights were set up in advance by a more experienced shooter. Or if a professional retoucher was used for portfolio projects, but the photographer does their own retouching be (or none at all) for content shared with models. What you see used by other models will more accurately reflect what you can expect from a photographer's work.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
E Thompson Photography wrote:
So you populate your portfolio with mediocre images so as not to have your "good" images stolen. Do you believe that's been a successful approach for you? I did not say that the images were mediocre. They are not my best images.
I have had no problems getting models.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
sospix wrote:
"I'm hoping it's B . . . "
SOS Finally someone willing and/or brave enough to pick an (A) or (B) answer ... but I think the logic behind your 'why' answer is fanciful thinking.
sospix wrote:
"... if I send 3 comps of an idea to a client, they inevitably pick my least favourite ..."
SOS Ain't that the truth ... I used to shoot a model of the month for our local newspaper and submit a proof sheet of all the images to the Editor. Invariably the Editor would publish an image that the model didn't like. Eventually the Editor agreed to our earmarking the model's favourite 3 images. However the Editor still had the final say.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
goofus wrote:
one could ask the same with regard to models
she might have one fabulous photo in her book and the rest: meh
should I go by that one pix?? or the rest? I agree with you that one could ask the same with regard to models.
It did cross my mind, but I decided to go with the premise of a model choosing a photographer, as the idea for the question came after reading an article written by a model.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Rachel Jay wrote:
It's not as easy as A or B, though. When I'm looking for a photographer I ask myself the following: It's not a trick question and the answer isn't meant to be as easy as (A) or (B), but I do hope the interest for everyone is in reading the 'Whys'
Although you did not to pick either (A) or (B), your answer, along with those of the other respondents, has raised some very interesting and valid points of view.
So thank you.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Sliver-Sliver wrote:
That’s because the premise is flawed based on assumptions. For example, you’re assuming that the quality of the images even matters to the model at all, when many models have stated that they don’t really care if the final photos are eye-bleachingly bad as long as they’re appropriately paid for their time, effort, experience and talent. Having read so many responses saying it's not possible to give a straight (A) or (B) answer, I've decided to edit my question.
Admin
Model Mayhem Edu
Posts: 1318
Los Angeles, California, US
Camera Buff wrote:
Should a model choose (or not choose) a photographer by the best or worst picture in a photographer’s portfolio and why?
(A) The best picture - there is only one good picture, but it's so good, that a model imagines how much they would love it if they were the model in the best picture.
or
(B) The worst picture - there is only one bad picture, but it’s so bad, that a model imagines how much they would hate it if they were the model in the worst picture.
Please Answer (A) or (B) and WHY? For the reasons previously stated, the A or B scenario doesn't seem like a good basis from a model's perspective. However, most professional portfolio reviews (artist reps, ad agencies, etc) and potential commercial clients will go with "B".
The fear that they might get something that bad is often what prevents them from hiring someone new versus a more established photographer.
In addition, there are a number of questions that arise as to why a photographer would display an image that's so bad in their portfolio.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30129
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Camera Buff wrote:
Even if a model was to pick the worst picture in your portfolio, I'm certain they would be tripping over themselves wanting to be that model.
The quality and consistency of your portfolio speaks volumes for itself (and you) ... it is simply outstanding! Thank You
I am just an average photographer who has been able to find some great Models
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
For the reasons previously stated, the A or B scenario doesn't seem like a good basis from a model's perspective. However, most professional portfolio reviews (artist reps, ad agencies, etc) and potential commercial clients will go with "B".
The fear that they might get something that bad is often what prevents them from hiring someone new versus a more established photographer.
In addition, there are a number of questions that arise as to why a photographer would display an image that's so bad in their portfolio. Yes IMO "B" was/is the correct answer that I was expecting.
Your "Why" answer is right on the money too! I couldn't have explained it any better.
Admin
Model Mayhem Edu
Posts: 1318
Los Angeles, California, US
goofus wrote:
one could ask the same with regard to models
she might have one fabulous photo in her book and the rest: meh
should I go by that one pix?? or the rest? That's not a simple A or B answer either.
Are the photos "meh" because of the model's inexperience or the photographer's lack of technical skills? A new model may have an amazing look but hasn't yet shot with any good photographers.
Are you booking the model because of her look or for the type of work you know she can deliver? Is it for personal project or a commercial job? How well can you direct models? How confident are you in your ability as a photographer?
Photographer
Sliver-Sliver
Posts: 175
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Camera Buff wrote:
Sorry everyone, having read all your responses saying that it's not a straight (A) or (B) answer, I've decided to heed your opinions and edit/correct/simplify my question.
The premise for my question is based on an article in which a model had written that when she receives a modelling offer from a photographer, to help her decide whether or not to accept their offer, she would judge the photographer's quality of work by the worst, not the best, picture in their portfolio.
She said, she would pick out what she considered to be the worst picture in the photographer's portfolio. She would then try to imagine that it was a picture of her. If she was comfortable with the idea of it being a picture her, then she would agree to model for that photographer. If not, she would politely turn down the photographer's modelling offer.
So "Should a model choose a photographer by the best, or worst, picture in a photographer’s portfolio and why?" I still don’t really understand what useful information you want in return to your now revised question. Multiple people have indicated that there are many variables to be considered beyond A/B, best/worst that help guide their decisions.
Are you trying to figure out what are the factors that contribute to a model’s decision to work with a photographer? Why not ask exactly that question, instead of your best/worst scenario?
Are you hoping to show that the model to whom you’re referring is correct or incorrect? (Hint: she’s correct - for her priorities). However, there isn’t a universal truth (or “should a model ...”), as you frame it. Some models will choose based on best. Some will choose based on worst. Some will sometimes choose best and sometimes worst. Some will see neither as valid options because they won’t make decisions based on outliers or extremes, and instead will assess overall level or consistency or alignment with specific needs or something else altogether.
People are individuals, and a highly risk-averse person is likely to interpret your question very differently than an eternal optimist.
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 23769
Orlando, Florida, US
Camera Buff wrote:
sospix wrote:
"I'm hoping it's B . . . "
SOS Finally someone willing and/or brave enough to pick an (A) or (B) answer ... but I think the logic behind your 'why' answer is fanciful thinking.
Ain't that the truth ... I used to shoot a model of the month for our local newspaper and submit a proof sheet of all the images to the Editor. Invariably the Editor would publish an image that the model didn't like. Eventually the Editor agreed to our earmarking the model's favourite 3 images. However the Editor still had the final say. Yep, and it gets even worse if there's a committee involved in the final choice . . . makes ya develop a very thick skin . . .
SOS
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11723
Olney, Maryland, US
Camera Buff wrote:
Yes IMO "B" was/is the correct answer that I was expecting. We both knew that all along.
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18904
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US
In theory one should only have their best photos on their profile but a lot of factors enter into the decision.
Was the model a beautiful/ popular one?
Was the shoot done under difficult circumstances?
Is the model a friend?
Does the photo show a genre/ style that is different from your normal work?
I agree that quality and constancy are the best criteria and I know when looking at a model's profile the things I look for are the number of photographers she has worked with, the quality of the photographers and if the shoot is similar to what I intend. Did she do her own hair, makeup and styling in a location /studio similar to what I will be doing or was it done with a full top notch crew of professionals.
Years ago I saw a great model with al photos done by Playboy in their studio. Then I saw other photos taken without the talented team behind the Playboy photos.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If it's a trade offer, then yes, I check out the worst thing they've decided is portfolio-worthy and then I go find their credited images and take a look at what they think is good enough to supply models with for their portfolios.
The difference is sometimes absolutely staggering, and it shows that whatever the photographer is showcasing as *their* best work is probably a complete accident rather than a proficiency with their craft, and/or that they're not giving each model equal attention/the best of their abilities. It gets even dodgier when they dont have a consistent style/theme and are trying their hand at lots of different possibilities. I'm not willing to bet on accidents when it comes to trade. I also wont trade with people who show a certain consistency in their portfolio but then think that trading with me is a good time to use me as a guinea pig for something completely different that may or may not be any good or useful to me.
If it's a paid shoot then yeah I generally accept that there are lots of bad images of me on the internet, and unless the content is really something I'm not into doing poorly (horror/gore, erotica, etc) then I just hope for the best and expect the worst and get paid either way.
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Sliver-Sliver wrote:
I still don’t really understand what useful information you want in return to your now revised question. Multiple people have indicated that there are many variables to be considered beyond A/B, best/worst that help guide their decisions.
Are you trying to figure out what are the factors that contribute to a model’s decision to work with a photographer? Why not ask exactly that question, instead of your best/worst scenario?
Are you hoping to show that the model to whom you’re referring is correct or incorrect? (Hint: she’s correct - for her priorities). However, there isn’t a universal truth (or “should a model ...”), as you frame it. Some models will choose based on best. Some will choose based on worst. Some will sometimes choose best and sometimes worst. Some will see neither as valid options because they won’t make decisions based on outliers or extremes, and instead will assess overall level or consistency or alignment with specific needs or something else altogether.
People are individuals, and a highly risk-averse person is likely to interpret your question very differently than an eternal optimist. Sorry for having confused you twice now with the wording of my question(s). I have acknowledged that my wording in Version 1 was "flawed". Consequently, I have done my very best to keep the wording in the second/edited version - as simple as possible and hopefully less flawed.
Regardless of the "flawed" wording, a majority of respondents have been able to make their own interpretations and provide some useful, interesting and constructive opinions and/or observations. This includes your feedback which I both respect and appreciate.
Photographer
Rik Williams
Posts: 4005
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I don't post my more spectacular images on Model Mayhem because they might be stolen from the site. Where do you post them, I'm genuinely curious.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Rik Williams wrote:
Where do you post them, I'm genuinely curious. I don't post my best photos online.
Photographer
goofus
Posts: 808
Santa Barbara, California, US
Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
That's not a simple A or B answer either.
Are the photos "meh" because of the model's inexperience or the photographer's lack of technical skills? A new model may have an amazing look but hasn't yet shot with any good photographers.
Are you booking the model because of her look or for the type of work you know she can deliver? Is it for personal project or a commercial job? How well can you direct models? How confident are you in your ability as a photographer? yeah.. I have no answer.. usually I find it's one or two great shots and the rest are all very similar.. and from that I deduce the model basically has one expression and look, but that one photographer found the one angle where her expression either works or is hidden.. and she really pops... so if I message her..I will need to remember that angle.. and then try to get her into other expressions.. sometimes I'm up for that / sometimes I'm not
I suppose models will look at my stuff and think - eh..it's all just one big softlight - btdt....
and they could be right
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Laura UnBound wrote:
If it's a trade offer, then yes, I check out the worst thing they've decided is portfolio-worthy and then I go find their credited images and take a look at what they think is good enough to supply models with for their portfolios.
The difference is sometimes absolutely staggering, and it shows that whatever the photographer is showcasing as *their* best work is probably a complete accident rather than a proficiency with their craft, and/or that they're not giving each model equal attention/the best of their abilities. It gets even dodgier when they dont have a consistent style/theme and are trying their hand at lots of different possibilities. I'm not willing to bet on accidents when it comes to trade. I also wont trade with people who show a certain consistency in their portfolio but then think that trading with me is a good time to use me as a guinea pig for something completely different that may or may not be any good or useful to me.
If it's a paid shoot then yeah I generally accept that there are lots of bad images of me on the internet, and unless the content is really something I'm not into doing poorly (horror/gore, erotica, etc) then I just hope for the best and expect the worst and get paid either way. Thank you for a wonderfully informative response.
Admin
Model Mayhem Edu
Posts: 1318
Los Angeles, California, US
goofus wrote:
yeah.. I have no answer.. usually I find it's one or two great shots and the rest are all very similar.. and from that I deduce the model basically has one expression and look, but that one photographer found the one angle where her expression either works or is hidden.. and she really pops... so if I message her..I will need to remember that angle.. and then try to get her into other expressions.. sometimes I'm up for that / sometimes I'm not
I suppose models will look at my stuff and think - eh..it's all just one big softlight - btdt....
and they could be right It's interesting to learn the different ways people approach selecting talent to work with.
As for the "one big softlight" approach, there's a lot to be said for having a technique that can be repeated to produce consistent results. If you know what you're going to get it's a lot easier to decide if you want it.
Isn't all/most of your work done using large format? I assume that process naturally makes you more selective. Do the models you shoot with say that's a major factor for choosing to work, or not, with you?
Photographer
Camera Buff
Posts: 924
Maryborough, Queensland, Australia
Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
It's interesting to learn the different ways people approach selecting talent to work with. I share this sentiment.
The thought of a model choosing a photographer by their worst picture, and why, was a novel and interesting concept to me to begin with.
After reading all of the responses in this thread, I now realise that there are other interesting ways and other important things to consider before deciding whether or not to work with a photographer (or model).
Cheers and thank you everyone!
Photographer
goofus
Posts: 808
Santa Barbara, California, US
Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
It's interesting to learn the different ways people approach selecting talent to work with.
As for the "one big softlight" approach, there's a lot to be said for having a technique that can be repeated to produce consistent results. If you know what you're going to get it's a lot easier to decide if you want it.
Isn't all/most of your work done using large format? I assume that process naturally makes you more selective. Do the models you shoot with say that's a major factor for choosing to work, or not, with you? IDK.. I think at least some can see a difference although most are not aware it comes from big film and old lenses
I shoot a lot of formats.. from toy cameras, (now)FF digital to medium format film to 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 and sometimes 11x14 all at the same shoot.. same light, same pose even.. It's kinda cool how each format makes a different image (f16 of a ff digital is WAY different than on a 8x10 where that might be about 2" of DoF)..but yeah.. I kinda got the one big softlight thing wired
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9775
Bellingham, Washington, US
Too lazy to read thread.
Has anybody gone beyond choosing by the perceived value of the work and factored in all the other bits and dabs or would that be off-topic?
One might pass on an somebody showing an excellent port because they searched the forum posts and found something that indicated an incompatibility, just for instance. Of course, the reverse could be true as well, an individual with a somewhat lesser port but a reputation of being great to work with and true to their commitments might be chosen because we've all seen magic happen and usually under enjoyable working conditions.
The size of the already immense gray area may have just increased exponentially, with the only real answer being...
"It depends."
Photographer
John Silva Photography
Posts: 589
Fairfield, California, US
I've seen plenty of Models portfolios where I think that the worst pic in that photographers portfolio must have been the photographers best photos because every shot in a Model's portfolio is pretty crappy or low quality!
Or why would the models even proudly post them???
|
As a long time creative it always astounds me that if I send 3 comps of an idea to a client, they inevitably pick my least favourite as the direction they want ta go . . . sometimes ya havta fight tooth and nail to get them ta see the other direction as a better alternative . . . I guess it is truly "in the eye of the beholder"! 
