Forums > Photography Talk > Patreon - send images

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

Something I've been wondering about lately;

Photographers and Models, what is the agreement discussed when a model [who was either Paid or TF* with] asks a photographer for images for their Patreon page.

I think this is a subject we need to address now since most models content is going over to their Patreon pages for subscription viewing due to Social Media censorship rules lately.
I've been getting requests lately to send any images I have for them to post.

People we need to talk!

Mar 11 19 12:31 am Link

Photographer

Red Sky Photography

Posts: 3655

Germantown, Maryland, US

I am not shooting much anymore, but when I was, I would be happy to share all retouched images with the model on a TF shoot. I always ask if the model would like to pick some of the images to have retouched so we both get what we need from the shoot.

On a paid, pay the model, shoot, I still share some of the retouched images with the model. She rarely gets to pick images. She is free to use those images on IG and FB as she wishes.

I was in negotiation with a paid model once who asked if she could use the images on her Patreon and her Pay site. I declined and offered to shoot her  ideas TF after I got the images I wanted from the paid portion of our shoot. She declined and the shoot never happened.

I would not pay someone for images, and then give them those images with a license to sell them. I think that's a decision everyone has to make for themselves.

Mar 11 19 06:46 am Link

Photographer

Jorge Kreimer

Posts: 3518

Los Angeles, California, US

I let the models use the images for Patreon, whether paid or TF.
No reason why they shouldn't make a few extra bucks.

Mar 11 19 07:51 am Link

Photographer

Ken Marcus Studios

Posts: 9014

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

For quite a while, I saw a decline in interest among models to shoot TF.
Responses to inquires for trade shoots were falling off as the months went by.

Recently however, there appears to be a renewal of interest, because of Patreon and other sites where these models can earn a small amount off the photos.  They've gone from thinking a TF shoot is a rip-off to realizing they need constant uploads of content for their own uses.

I think it's a good thing for all of us that do trade shoots (both models & photographers)

KM

Mar 11 19 08:07 am Link

Photographer

LnN Studio

Posts: 29

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

Ken is right. It is all about the WIIFM-Whats In It For Me.
This gives a model an opportunity to monetize a TF shoot. Sometimes photographers over think the value of their photos when they have no market for them. Of course if you have a market that is different .

Mar 11 19 06:51 pm Link

Photographer

Eric212Grapher

Posts: 2010

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

Images and their use are all part of the total compensation package you offer the models.

The more the model can use the images, the more likely the model is willing to come back for additional sessions.

Mar 12 19 12:19 pm Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

Red Sky Photography wrote:
...On a paid, pay the model, shoot, I still share some of the retouched images with the model. She rarely gets to pick images. She is free to use those images on IG and FB as she wishes....

...I would not pay someone for images, and then give them those images with a license to sell them. I think that's a decision everyone has to make for themselves.

I agree with the "photographer picking the images" on the Pay the model shoot, and I'll add "limited" amount because some will ask for all the good shots to be sent. It's a good gesture as well as contributing to the model's cause, good karma I guess..
The question is with Patreon, Are they selling the images or is it just "showing" by subscription? which I guess at that point ANYone with paid access can right click and take the photos.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
For quite a while, I saw a decline in interest among models to shoot TF.
Responses to inquires for trade shoots were falling off as the months went by.

Recently however, there appears to be a renewal of interest, because of Patreon and other sites where these models can earn a small amount off the photos.  They've gone from thinking a TF shoot is a rip-off to realizing they need constant uploads of content for their own uses.

I think it's a good thing for all of us that do trade shoots (both models & photographers)

KM

This is a good leverage point when a model approaches or solicits a photographer for a standard "Pay me to Model" shoot. Maybe something to be discussed in the booking process.
Patreon like you said now puts more value of the images in the eyes of the model but not so for the photographer in most cases. It gives TF* a new life and doesn't hurt the photographers wallet so much because the model will get paid on the other end of the deal.

LnN Studio wrote:
Ken is right. It is all about the WIIFM-Whats In It For Me.
This gives a model an opportunity to monetize a TF shoot. Sometimes photographers over think the value of their photos when they have no market for them. Of course if you have a market that is different .

Good post to think about. Although the point of photographers over thinking the value of their own work is in reality now worth something to the model. I'm wondering if in some cases the model should be paying the photographer for that deal since we as the photographer will not have a market on our end due to not being market savvy... something to think about? Maybe?

Eric212Grapher wrote:
Images and their use are all part of the total compensation package you offer the models.

The more the model can use the images, the more likely the model is willing to come back for additional sessions.

True but the question is the worth for both parties at the booking process or for most of us Long After the shoot was done and payed for by the photographer. Patreon has now changes that discussion where the balance of worth is leaning heavily to the model.

Mar 12 19 03:27 pm Link

Photographer

Sliver-Sliver

Posts: 109

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

Art Silva wrote:
Photographers and Models, what is the agreement discussed when...

There is no, in my opinion, singular universal agreement for compensation, usage allowance, or expectations for the OP's scenario, or frankly anything in this sphere. How I allow image usage may be completely different from your usage, and may (and in my case, does) vary between sessions and subjects.

Art Silva wrote:
People we need to talk!

I suggest that you need to talk to the people with whom you work.

Mar 12 19 03:49 pm Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

Sliver-Sliver wrote:

There is no, in my opinion, singular universal agreement for compensation, usage allowance, or expectations for the OP's scenario, or frankly anything in this sphere. How I allow image usage may be completely different from your usage, and may (and in my case, does) vary between sessions and subjects.

Sliver-Sliver wrote:
I suggest that you need to talk to the people with whom you work.

I may have not been clear, I was mainly talking about After the fact. Models who I have paid are suddenly wanting a gallery of full size images from our shoots over the years.
This is more of an attempt to see what the normal thing is in this situation before I "talk to who I've worked with".

Mar 12 19 03:55 pm Link

Photographer

Red Sky Photography

Posts: 3655

Germantown, Maryland, US

Art Silva wrote:
I may have not been clear, I was mainly talking about After the fact. Models who I have paid are suddenly wanting a gallery of full size images from our shoots over the years.
This is more of an attempt to see what the normal thing is in this situation before I "talk to who I've worked with".

If it was a model I have worked with a lot and established a friendship, I would be inclined to let her have images that are just sitting on my hard drive.

Going forward, I would not pay a model, and also supply images for Patreon or a pay site. She would likely get two or three to use on FB and IG only.

Mar 13 19 01:20 pm Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

Red Sky Photography wrote:
If it was a model I have worked with a lot and established a friendship, I would be inclined to let her have images that are just sitting on my hard drive.

Going forward, I would not pay a model, and also supply images for Patreon or a pay site. She would likely get two or three to use on FB and IG only.

I'm thinking along those lines myself.
I have made wonderful friendships with many I have shot with over the years and followed professional procedures and presented proper model releases each time. I am just trying to see what is fair and not ruffle any relationships even though I have YET to make a dime off all these model shoots I've payed for over the years and slightly feel the Real balance of payoff is now an added [continuous] benefit to the one who was compensated originally.
Going forward I agree, there is an added consideration when booking a model as well as an amended terms of use on the release.

Interesting times right?!

Mar 14 19 05:22 pm Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3406

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Some 5 years ago or so, I recall seeing a lot of angry posts from models along following lines:

"I have approached XXXX photographer and he told me he does paid shots only due to camera, lighting, studio, etc expenses!! What does it have to do with me? It doesn't concern me!!"
...and the crowd was quick to chime in and feel sorry for the disheartened girl..as you normally would..

How ironic...smile

Mar 15 19 02:57 am Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

R.EYE.R wrote:
Some 5 years ago or so, I recall seeing a lot of angry posts from models along following lines:

"I have approached XXXX photographer and he told me he does paid shots only due to camera, lighting, studio, etc expenses!! What does it have to do with me? It doesn't concern me!!"
...and the crowd was quick to chime in and feel sorry for the disheartened girl..as you normally would..

How ironic...smile

Not quite sure I follow this "irony" because this is a whole other debate... This example can be taken several ways as well as almost irrelevant. Please explain.

Mar 15 19 05:28 pm Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3406

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Art Silva wrote:
Not quite sure I follow this "irony" because this is a whole other debate... This example can be taken several ways as well as almost irrelevant. Please explain.

Doesn't come as a surprise.
Think about it then wink

Mar 16 19 08:22 am Link

Model

Laura UnBound

Posts: 28681

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I think it's becoming more and more important to consider that other social media is cracking down too heavily on nudity. I shoot a lot of nudes, the models I shoot do a lot of nudes...the point of trade is to give them images to use for their social media promotion, but if we shot nudes....where the hell are they supposed to put them? If nobody can show the work what's the point in even doing it? Tumblr's censored the hell out of all of us, facebook and instagram are banning models day after day with no recourse to recovering the accounts... I don't blame anyone for going to the only damn platform left that allows them to showcase their work.

I'm pretty lax about where people use our work, I just ask them to let me know what their intentions are ahead of time so there's no surprises.

Mar 16 19 11:04 am Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

R.EYE.R wrote:

Doesn't come as a surprise.
Think about it then wink

What is That suppose to mean?!
I was asking nicely to connect the relevance of the "irony" being that the wording is a bit unclear.

Trying to discuss a simple question here not exploring unrelated semantics.

Mar 17 19 02:14 pm Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9917

Santa Barbara, California, US

Laura UnBound wrote:
I think it's becoming more and more important to consider that other social media is cracking down too heavily on nudity. I shoot a lot of nudes, the models I shoot do a lot of nudes...the point of trade is to give them images to use for their social media promotion, but if we shot nudes....where the hell are they supposed to put them? If nobody can show the work what's the point in even doing it? Tumblr's censored the hell out of all of us, facebook and instagram are banning models day after day with no recourse to recovering the accounts... I don't blame anyone for going to the only damn platform left that allows them to showcase their work.

I'm pretty lax about where people use our work, I just ask them to let me know what their intentions are ahead of time so there's no surprises.

I'm not on Facebook but I do have IG and Tumblr accounts with my nudes and yes the hard censorship is driving models and some photographers to other "privatized" subscription based sites to show their total uncensored art.

My question at this point is, okay, let's say you and I did a few shoots a few years ago. We agreed on your daily rate and signed the standard model release in case I ever want to make prints for show or promote my work online. I also outside of that send a small set of web size images to post on your MM or other promotion site (ie; IG, FB...).
Fast forward a few years and you open a Patreon account in hopes to make a decent chunk of income and decide to hit up those past photographers for a set of full res, jpegs to post in your paying tiers.
Isn't that a case of renegotiation of the contract?

Just trying to get a consensus of what the norm is since I am now facing these new requests from past models. In other words, what's in it for me since it was on my dollar to begin with[?] without sounding like an a-hole.

side note: my nude work on my end is and has always been 100% expense and 0% income even though the whole purpose of the model contract is my license to use her likeness for my benefit per her paid services.

Thanks in advance for your valued insight Laura. wink

Mar 17 19 02:35 pm Link

Photographer

AgX

Posts: 2583

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

Art Silva wrote:
My question at this point is, okay, let's say you and I did a few shoots a few years ago. We agreed on your daily rate and signed the standard model release in case I ever want to make prints for show or promote my work online. I also outside of that send a small set of web size images to post on your MM or other promotion site (ie; IG, FB...).
Fast forward a few years and you open a Patreon account in hopes to make a decent chunk of income and decide to hit up those past photographers for a set of full res, jpegs to post in your paying tiers.
Isn't that a case of renegotiation of the contract?

Just trying to get a consensus of what the norm is since I am now facing these new requests from past models. In other words, what's in it for me since it was on my dollar to begin with[?] without sounding like an a-hole.

It sounds like you do feel like this would indeed be a contract renegotiation, and it sounds like you feel reluctant (otherwise it seems less likely that you would even bring it up) to provide content that wasn't originally included. So don't. Don't worry about what the consensus may be if it doesn't suit your purposes. As the kids say, you do you.

If providing content that you feel goes above and beyond doesn't faze you, no problem. If you feel bothered or put out or taken advantage of or whatever by doing so, still no problem.

Mar 17 19 06:16 pm Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3406

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Art Silva wrote:
What is That suppose to mean?!
I was asking nicely to connect the relevance of the "irony" being that the wording is a bit unclear.

Trying to discuss a simple question here not exploring unrelated semantics.

Buddhists tend to see each thing not as a separate entity, but a collection of processes, which does make a lot of sense.
How can one successfully address an illness whilst disregarding the symptoms? Or maybe in today's instant gratification world everything is unrelated....bah, semantics..smile

Of course, working for free as a photographer whilst paying a model her rates and providing her with images she can sell on Patreon is unrelated. After all, pressing a button is no skill.

Mar 17 19 10:48 pm Link