Focuspuller wrote:
[...]
PS: I vaguely remember Ken Kesey proposing a "Trips Act" in 1969. Could be wrong.

Hah!  I would note that he was not only known for his "trips", but for "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest".  Which, I would suggest, could also be applied to the "American Trip Act"...

GRMACK wrote:
Something has bothered me about the USA death rate.

If the Covid-19 deaths result in reported payouts of $13K to $130K (ventilator cases), how many deaths are being falsely reported for capital gain via the CARE Act?  Are we the only country who pays more for Covid-19 death reports?

FactCheck.org has done a detailed analysis of this: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospi … ath-count/

Long analysis, but I believe there’s no evidence of fraud.

GRMACK wrote:
Something has bothered me about the USA death rate.
[...]

I would also add that various studies have shown that when they've compared the overall death rate during the COVID-19 crisis, to previous years, there is a much larger increase in the death rate than is officially attributed to COVID-19.  The suspicions are that far more deaths are COVID-19 related than recorded.

So the indications are that the COVID-19 reported deaths are significantly UNDER COUNTED, not over counted.

LightDreams wrote:
So for those of you that think that the U.S. Gov't should be doing something to help out with your loss of income, and help you in some way to buy food and pay the rent, etc...

Here you go!  Well, sort of.

Arizona Republican Senator McSally as introduced a bill called the "The American Trip Act".  it will give you up to a $4,000 tax credit IF you spend that on a trip that's at least 50 miles away from your home, with eligible expenses to include food and beverages, live entertainment, lodgings and travel.

You know, get out there (outside of your own area) and socialize, go see some shows, and hit the bars, etc.

I swear that I'm not making any of this up.  My brain isn't THAT twisted...

uhmmm sure yer not.... and the check is in the mail.    

y'all GOTTA be twisted not to go stark raving bonkers watching this all unfold....

Lets ALL take a trip.... lets see how many folks we can KILL with unnecessary TRIPS out and about....

We have to work. We have to put food on the table and roofs over our heads.....

We dont have to go sightseeing, we dont have to congregate to worship, we dont have to go out dancing and drinking.... all very nice to do, all somethings we WANT to do, but they are unnecessary in the middle of a pandemic...

We have proof mitigation works----- the numbers BEFORE we relaxed. We are now heading right back into another health care crisis---- because folks wont wear a mask, or put off that trip to the tattoo parlor....

Decisive leadership in other countries PROVED the virus could be somewhat managed.... instead Trump has made America Number One.... in infections, and DEATHS.

GRMACK wrote:
Something has bothered me about the USA death rate.

If the Covid-19 deaths result in reported payouts of $13K to $130K (ventilator cases), how many deaths are being falsely reported for capital gain via the CARE Act?  Are we the only country who pays more for Covid-19 death reports?

Some deaths here are nursing home and EOL cases due to cancer, heart, Alzheimer's, pneumonia, diabetes, etc., but get may get reported as Covid deaths for more money.  I know my families death certificates are often EOL or nothing in the box.  Given it takes about a week to get back a Covid confirmation on a test here (We have lots of pending ones!), I doubt if they are really doing any sort of final autopsy to find out. Since hospitals were mostly empty here in the April/May wave, and even took down their overflow tents that were unused, I can see some falsifying death reports to gain more pay for the hospital.

I just don't like attaching large sums of money to Medicare for a Covid death if it is not confirmed via autopsy or post testing.  Penciling it in for more dollars could be an issue.

Fwiw, male friend was in hospital and got a Pap Smear Test on his bill. His wife thought it was hysterical.  Pad the bill.

If true, this is a small part of general Medicare fraud which has been going on for years. When Sen Rick Scott was CEO of Columbia/HCA, the company was fined $1.7 Billion for Medicare fraud, the largest fine of a hospital corp. in history. It's a product of a for-profit healthcare system on top of a reward structure based on procedures performed, rather than outcomes, and some of those who profess a philosophical aversion to Medicare, are nonetheless ok with gaming the system beyond all ethical restraint.

So how did the Pap smear turn out?

Focuspuller wrote:
[...]
PS: I vaguely remember Ken Kesey proposing a "Trips Act" in 1969. Could be wrong.

Weren't some guys name Johnson and Nixon paying young men to take trips to SE Asia in '69?

Focuspuller wrote:
.....
So how did the Pap smear turn out?

I would assume it came out negative.  If positive, his wife would have said something I'm sure.

The odd one was when my dad died.  His brainwave function ceased, but his heart was still beating well on the screen. The doc had to pull out his pacemaker's battery to stop the heart rhythm which freaked my sister out as she thought he was still alive.

Reading the CDC guidelines on reporting a Covid death, seems it is a best guess of the pathologist/doctor/corner if they are not doing post testing that can take a long time for results.  My mom went straight to funeral home via hearse from nursing home and nothing was done to determine why she died other than old age (89).  "She just shut down" as one hospice nurse said.

You want to get freaked out, get into a hospital's death chamber area sometime.  Don't know how those nurses deal with it.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
Oh look, a massive dust cloud. That will help everybody.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus- … 54519.html

So to review:

Coronovirus Pandemic
Murder Hornets
Gorilla Dust Cloud
Orange Menace

Festering Boils next?

Focuspuller wrote:

So to review:

Coronovirus Pandemic
Murder Hornets
Gorilla Dust Cloud
Orange Menace

Festering Boils next?

There are some very good Festering Boils, on both sides...

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Weren't some guys name Johnson and Nixon paying young men to take trips to SE Asia in '69?

hahaha  Johnson did offer pay but it was a cut from my civilian job.  But I also had a choice of jail or Canada.  The pay was tax free and I did get a monthly bonus for being shot at.  And the job included room and board, free mail, and the PX was like an airport duty free shop.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
Down the page a bit, there is a video. Not the top video, the next one down. This is what we've come to...

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/trump-su … 9642.html.

Oh, it got worse. The arrogance of ignorance.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 … ronavirus/

Focuspuller wrote:
Oh, it got worse. The arrogance of ignorance.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 … ronavirus/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/carto … 020_5_.gif

Focuspuller wrote:

Oh, it got worse. The arrogance of ignorance.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 … ronavirus/

Not surprising. So delightful to see non-judgemental people representing their well-thought out beliefs in a kind and generous way.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:
According to the media, COVID-19 patients are over running the medical facilities in Houston.  ICU beds are 99% full.

Then the CEO of the largest hospital group in Houston comes on TV and says only 27% of the ICU patients are COVID-19.  He also says that while the regular ICU beds are near capacity, this is normal because ICU is expensive and they only maintain the capacity they normally use.  He said there are plenty of reserve beds in the hospitals they can activate quickly as needed.

Interesting, the "for profit" motive changes how they operate (they only maintain the ICU capacity they normally need due to the expense involved).  If they have everything needed to convert the alternate hospital beds for ICU use, then it makes good sense.

It all depends on whether they either have, or have rapid access to, enough ventilators and other ICU equipment (i.e. not just the beds) for COVID-19 capacity spikes.  And I don't pretend to know the answer to that one.

Related to that story, the Texas Governor has suspended all non-emergency hospital procedures today in 4 large counties to try and free up enough beds.  Including all of the back-up beds, Texas is predicting that emergency surge capacity is looking like it may be maxed out in early July.   (Source: Texas Tribune report from 4 hours ago)

Note:  I am not picking on Texas in terms of their ability to handle COVID-19 surges.  That's one of the reasons there was so much effort in so many places to "flatten the curve".  I.E. You have much better odds of saving many more people if your hospital ICUs don't get overwhelmed.  You don't have to choose which patients in need get the ventilators, etc, when there aren't enough to go around.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:
According to the media, COVID-19 patients are over running the medical facilities in Houston.  ICU beds are 99% full.

Then the CEO of the largest hospital group in Houston comes on TV and says only 27% of the ICU patients are COVID-19.  He also says that while the regular ICU beds are near capacity, this is normal because ICU is expensive and they only maintain the capacity they normally use.  He said there are plenty of reserve beds in the hospitals they can activate quickly as needed.

you might want to tell the whole story if you are going to claim media bias...

It is true the CEO's of the four major hospital systems in Houston did say Thursday there's no cause for "unwarranted alarm."

Those same CEOs signed a letter to Houstonians Wednesday warning, "If this trend continues, our hospital system capacity will become overwhelmed."

Dr. Marc Boom explained in a virtual news conference Thursday that the purpose of the letter was to "urge people to do the right things in the community and do so by talking about capacity, but really ended up unintentionally sounding an alarm bell too loudly about capacity."

This is the data from TMC- their own internal data from their website--from Wednesday---



link:  https://www.tmc.edu/wp-content/uploads/ … 5-2020.png

The concern is the rate of ICU admissions. If the trend continues as predicted, it will overcome the surge ICU capacity next month...

I hope things turn around. I hope people get a better grip on the reality of the virus, for now, and the changes it is forcing us to make. Not counting on it though...

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I was talking to a doctor yesterday.  The number of cases around here is going down now.  We never exceeded capacity.

Very good news. I am sure the 353 Michiganders who contracted covid-19 yesterday will be glad to hear that.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ … 257729001/

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I was talking to a doctor yesterday.  The number of cases around here is going down now.  We never exceeded capacity.

They've changed the rating in your area down to "controlled disease growth", meaning that the rate of growth has slowed enough so as not to overwhelm your hospitals.  But the rate is still growing.

Things were looking better until the last couple of days, which is why they are concerned.  They're trying to get more information.

Stay safe, Jerry.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I was talking to a doctor yesterday.  The number of cases around here is going down now.  We never exceeded capacity.

Current 14 day moving averages of Michigan and the bordering states. Illinois is doing well currently and Ohio is in trouble.
Rates are rising in Michigan so caution would be advised. As I mention above, Washington went from +8% to +50% in a short time.

Bordering states matter since people travel and that's a major factor in spreading Covid-19.

Michigan up 15.5%
Indiana down 13.62%
Ohio up 69.8%
Wisconsin up 17.5%

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I was talking to a doctor yesterday.  The number of cases around here is going down now.  We never exceeded capacity.

That is good news Jerry, at a time when we dont get enough good news.

Michigan, and Wayne county where Dearborn is, got smacked HARD in the initial stages. For a time it looked like it was trending towards the kind of disaster New York saw. Gov. Whitmer seems to have taken some early actions that helped, things have been relatively stable for nearly a month---  still too many people getting sick, but nothing like the peak. Last few days have been rising though, lets hope it isnt a trend.

There are a lot of places where things appear to be calming down somewhat.

There are a lot of places it isnt calming down at all.

Like the county I live in... out here on the eastern fringes of the San Francisco Bay Area..... Contra Costa County... last published data was Wednesday--- which showed positive cases UP 2.7% since Tuesday, and up ~42% over 14 days ago. Deaths were up 8% over Tuesday, and up ~56% over 14 days ago....

Most folks dont know anyone who got sick. I think that is part of the problem, it seems so remote.

I live in a small residential court, 8 houses. Three retirees, and five much more active families with kids etc etc. The guy  (~40ish years old) across the street is "essential" he works in the power plant. He got sick, luckily a mild case, he was only in the hospital about 3 days... He is back to work, on a light schedule. He is scared to death for his Mom, who lives with them--- she is not well anyway, so he is very worried...

People need to remember.... the virus HAS.NOT.CHANGED. Only our reactions to the virus have changed. No cure, no vaccine, no herd immunity and only marginal treatments.....

Baanthai wrote:

I will give Fauci some latitude for being stuck between Iraq and a hard place.  The blame lies with the liars and bullies that are willing to put the health of millions of people at risk to achieve personal goals.  Maybe there will be a point where Fuaci drops some bomb shells.  Let's hope he doesn't wait to long like Bolton did.

Baanthai wrote:
Fuck Fauci. Pence repeatedly lied at the Covid briefing. Fauci stood on the stage and gave credibility to Pence’s lies by his mere presence. Fuck Fauci.

I understand your frustration with Fauci... but I am unsure what else he could do, without simply walking off the stage...and I am not sure how that would help.

He is as noted above- between a rock and a hard place. Trump and Pence are going to lie about the virus- their handling of the crisis is CRIMINAL. Fauci can either stay, and hope to occasionally be the Adult in the room and get some facts out to the public-----or give up and walk away.
------------------

Fauci sounds alarm at the virus task force briefing while Pence defends rally crowds.
----  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/worl … e=Homepage


Dr. Anthony S. Fauci delivered an urgent “message to the country” on Friday, warning that coronavirus outbreaks largely in the south and west could engulf the country and pleading for social distancing and mask wearing as an obligation to others.

But even as Dr. Fauci invoked “a societal responsibility,” Vice President Mike Pence at the same briefing twice defended President Trump’s crowded campaign rallies and often maskless supporters, praising the exercises of free speech and assembly.

“You have an individual responsibility to yourself but you have a societal responsibility because if we want to end this outbreak, really end it and then hopefully when a vaccine comes and put as a nail in the coffin, we’ve got to realize that we are part of the process,” Dr. Fauci said, noting that some states are doing better than others.

“If we don’t extinguish the outbreak, sooner or later, even ones that are doing well are going to be vulnerable to the spread,” he said.

Baanthai wrote:
Fuck Fauci. Pence repeatedly lied at the Covid briefing. Fauci stood on the stage and gave credibility to Pence’s lies by his mere presence. Fuck Fauci.

A little harsh, there, but Fauci needs to resign. If he thinks he is doing some good by his "mere presence," I am unable to see it. Certainly not in the charts. He appears on stage with the EMBODIMENT of the anti-masker, looney-toon delusionals destroying our country day by day, giving credence to the sanctimonious blather coming out of pence's pie-hiole. He needs to replace Bolton's self-serving and come clean NOW, while he still has any credibility at all left to his name. As Donnie Leathersoles likes to say, "What does he have to lose?"

Baanthai wrote:
Fuck Fauci. Pence repeatedly lied at the Covid briefing. Fauci stood on the stage and gave credibility to Pence’s lies by his mere presence. Fuck Fauci.

The whole bunch, "experts" included, have been telling lie after lie after lie this whole time.  They can't even seem to be consistent with their lies.  From their banning travel from China is wrong, falsified death projections and knee jerk reaction shutdown to Fauci's lie that we don't need masks to save them for medical staff, it's been one BS line after another.  Moving COVID-19 positive patients into nursing homes.  People dying alone in hospitals and prohibited to hold a funeral while large funerals and mass demonstrations all across the US are okay.  Hundreds of thousands of people can mill around in Wal-Marts across the country every day while small local businesses are forced to close, taking away everything those owners have.  How many children have been abused or committed suicide during this lockdown for your own safety?  The list goes on and on.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
There will be more Coronavis cases after this.

https://www.wxyz.com/news/coronavirus/c … pens-later

sadly, probably true.

this kinda goes to what I meant earlier- the virus seems remote- unless you know someone personally who got sick, it seems kinda abstract.

These folks dont see it as real. They see no threat. There is a reason for that- Poor leadership, poor messaging coming from above, and a willful ignorance on their part.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:
The whole bunch, "experts" included, have been telling lie after lie after lie this whole time.  They can't even seem to be consistent with their lies.  From their banning travel from China is wrong, falsified death projections and knee jerk reaction shutdown to Fauci's lie that we don't need masks to save them for medical staff, it's been one BS line after another.  Moving COVID-19 positive patients into nursing homes.  People dying alone in hospitals and prohibited to hold a funeral while large funerals and mass demonstrations all across the US are okay.  Hundreds of thousands of people can mill around in Wal-Marts across the country every day while small local businesses are forced to close, taking away everything those owners have.  How many children have been abused or committed suicide during this lockdown for your own safety?  The list goes on and on.

Speaking of lies: Okay, how many children have been abused or committed suicide during this lock down for your own safety?  I mean, yeah, you can actually provide numbers, and while you are at it, explain how children that are abused during the lockdown, aren't abused at other times.  You place the onus of the blame on other people's safety, but that need for safety doesn't apply to everyone in the country?

"Fauci's lie that we don't need masks to save them for medical staff."  You think that maybe that might have been related to the early stages of the outbreak when there were no masks and was not a lie, but different circumstances?  The number of cases were low and the people, the medical professionals, who were dealing with the sick on an everyday basis, on an hourly basis, might need those supplies more than people shut up in their homes?  Or was it a lie because they were giving out information on a disease that wasn't understood?  To you, when the best information you have is proven false, it is a lie?  No.  A lie is knowingly promoting a falsehood. An intentional falsehood.  Or should have known it was false.

Where was a large funeral okay?  George Floyd's?  Give me a break.  You want to make an anomaly sound like a nationwide phenomenon?

How does not being able to hold a wedding or a funeral relate to mass demonstrations?  Wow, what a whopper that one is.  So, you are saying that government or police atrocities are not worthy of bringing enraged people out to the streets.  But, I gather, it is fine and dandy for heavily armed people to go protest on the steps of state capitals.  Some of them wore masks though.  I guess that makes it alright, but wasn't that because they were hiding their identities?  BTW, some of the people in the other protests wore masks, too.  Of course, while some of ya'll were complaining about people being in the streets to protest during a pandemic, some of ya'll were demanding that the @#$% restaurants, stores, sports centers and bars should be fully open, without any restrictions.  Aren't the protests sorta like trump rallies?  I suppose you were screaming from the rooftops telling the people in Tulsa to wear a mask?  They didn't hear you.

Have you asked yourself why Walmarts were open but other businesses were not?  Could it have been that the Walmarts sell essential items, like FOOD?  Isn't your outrage a lie, though?  You wanted the virus to run rampant through the country and hospitalize people and overwhelm the system ASAP?  And you wanted all those healthcare workers without masks to die?  You wanted every place of employment open so customers and patrons could infect each other at the fastest plausible rate?  Personally, I was glad that my helper had to stay home for two weeks, even though I was not eligible for any government handouts, because I did not want to give him a disease that could easily kill his wife.

I know I didn't get coverage on every single one of your 'OMG, how could they' comments.  Just because I skipped over some, doesn't make them any less silly.

I would also like to point out that many of things you point out were short term issues and things related to a specific event or action, like the criticism trump got for the implementing the travel ban (too little, too late and it was only partial, without means for quarantine for those returning).  But Pence and trump are continuing a well documented pattern of lies and denial.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:
The whole bunch, "experts" included, have been telling lie after lie after lie this whole time.  They can't even seem to be consistent with their lies.  From their banning travel from China is wrong, falsified death projections and knee jerk reaction shutdown to Fauci's lie that we don't need masks to save them for medical staff, it's been one BS line after another.  Moving COVID-19 positive patients into nursing homes.  People dying alone in hospitals and prohibited to hold a funeral while large funerals and mass demonstrations all across the US are okay.  Hundreds of thousands of people can mill around in Wal-Marts across the country every day while small local businesses are forced to close, taking away everything those owners have.  How many children have been abused or committed suicide during this lockdown for your own safety?  The list goes on and on.

There is definitely all sorts of situations that are hard to swallow during this pandemic.  Not being able to visit the elderly in homes due to the risk of starting a mass new infection, travel restrictions when one is trying to visit the dying or, attend a funeral, and yes, the list goes on.

There are a lot of really difficult trade-off / "no-win" situations here.  For example, New Zealand AFTER they had become completely COVID-19 free, let in a couple of relatives to visit their dying mother before the 2 week quarantine period was up, due to the urgency of the situation.  Immediately 15 more people were infected and New Zealand had to jump all over it again.   Prior to that, they even had a full Rugby game with the stands full and NO restrictions.  They had COMPLETELY eliminated it (zeroes in every COVID-19 column for a few weeks).

But, so that I'm not putting words into your mouth, could you please clarify whether you think the lock downs shouldn't have happened?  or only in certain situations?  or...?

Just how do you think it should have been handled?

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:

The whole bunch, "experts" included, have been telling lie after lie after lie this whole time.  They can't even seem to be consistent with their lies.  From their banning travel from China is wrong, falsified death projections and knee jerk reaction shutdown to Fauci's lie that we don't need masks to save them for medical staff, it's been one BS line after another.  Moving COVID-19 positive patients into nursing homes.  People dying alone in hospitals and prohibited to hold a funeral while large funerals and mass demonstrations all across the US are okay.  Hundreds of thousands of people can mill around in Wal-Marts across the country every day while small local businesses are forced to close, taking away everything those owners have.  How many children have been abused or committed suicide during this lockdown for your own safety?  The list goes on and on.

Well SHUCKS, the way you tell it, its almost as if an air-headed MORON ran the pandemic response, screwed it up, then gave up.

Focuspuller wrote:
Well SHUCKS, the way you tell it, its almost as if an air-headed MORON ran the pandemic response, screwed it up, then gave up.

pretty much covers it for me.


 6  MONTHS : 3  WEEKS : 3  DAYS : 9  HOURS  : 55 MINUTES until we have an inauguration... lets hope it isnt Cpl. Bonespur.