Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Context: I'm a student and I plan to go into web development once I finish school. That career provides pretty good income, and I'm trying to set goals for myself. I'd like to use my income from programming to do what I enjoy: nude portraiture. However, not if doing so is *too* expensive. I'll give a set of details. I don't know which, if any, are relevant. 1) Assume that the compositional/posing quality of my work will be on par with this man's: https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/401592/viewall 2) Assume that I'll be in the U.S. and that I'll be using a medium format camera such as the GFX100. 3) This is related to both previous points: Assume that I'm willing to share the images with the model (but not to let her sell them). 4) Assume that I want to work with models that are on par, at least visually, with the above-mentioned photographer's models. I mention all of these points because I don't know how much value those perks have. Perhaps in that case, models would work on trade? Or at least, for only travel/etc. expenses, or for a reduced rate? Obviously, this depends on the model. I'm asking what I should expect to be able to find; a generality, not a universal. Note: The GFX100 is a very high quality and high resolution (102MP) camera, for whatever that's worth. So then: 1) How much should I expect to spend to hire such a model for a couple of hours (if I'm in their area?) 2) If the model has to travel, how much should I expect to spend to hire a model for a full day? 3) Two-three days? And is it even an option to hire a model for multiple days? I don't know the industry. On the one hand, it seems odd. But on the other hand, it makes sense in this scenario: I'd like to travel to very beautiful landscapes, and I don't want to spend 8+ hours travelling just to then shoot for only a short period.
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
I mention all of these points because I don't know how much value those perks have. Perhaps in that case, models would work on trade? Or at least, for only travel/etc. expenses, or for a reduced rate? Do you do programming for free if your employer gives you top of line computer and software ?
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30128
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I think it best if you go to Eastern Europe and ask these questions
Or message some models or photographers there to get some insight
Photographer
csybt
Posts: 30
Denver, Colorado, US
If someone sees value in your photos they'll do it for trade. If the value of your photos isn't equal or greater than money, they'll charge. Sometimes people contact me and ask for photos in lieu of money, sometimes they don't. Everyone is different.
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18902
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US
First the quality of your gear is of no importance to a model and to some extent the quality of the photos are not either.
You can be using a $50K camera in a million dollar studio and models set their rates by their expenses and how in demand they are. The quality of the photos may be a factor to new and upcoming models where they will ad marketability to THEM which would affect their rate.
In today's business world the money is in recurring payments so form many models they can make more money from pay sites and photo sales than they can from the actual shoot . OTOH few photographers can make significant money from sales of photos of models (other than magazines are art sales)
Your best bet IMO is looking at models you would want to photograph and find what their rates are remembering that everything is negotiable but it all depends on specifics of the model and the shoot at that particular time. For planning one can assume anything from $35 to 200 an hour, $500-1000 a day
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 2851
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
Obviously, this depends on the model. I'm asking what I should expect to be able to find; a generality, not a universal. It does depend on the model. And the location. And the details.
There are no generalities (in my opinion) that are going to be helpful to you or anyone else asking similar questions. Rates are driven primarily by local supply and demand. It doesn't matter if someone throws out a number of $50/h or $50000/h and calls it standard. It only matters if you can get that model to agree to those conditions. What I've charged/traded/paid has almost no relevance to you unless you're going to shoot what I shoot, where I live, with the people whom I've shot.
Mostly, in this sphere, each of you is an independent freelance contractor.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Bob Helm Photography wrote:
First the quality of your gear is of no importance to a model and to some extent the quality of the photos are not either.
You can be using a $50K camera in a million dollar studio and models set their rates by their expenses and how in demand they are. The quality of the photos may be a factor to new and upcoming models where they will ad marketability to THEM which would affect their rate.
In today's business world the money is in recurring payments so form many models they can make more money from pay sites and photo sales than they can from the actual shoot . OTOH few photographers can make significant money from sales of photos of models (other than magazines are art sales)
Your best bet IMO is looking at models you would want to photograph and find what their rates are remembering that everything is negotiable but it all depends on specifics of the model and the shoot at that particular time. For planning one can assume anything from $35 to 200 an hour, $500-1000 a day Thanks for the rough estimate, that's what I was looking for. I'm curious about one part of that, which is the difference between the two ranges. One range is only double from the minimum to high end (500-1000) and the other is almost six times (35-200). Do you know why there's such a sharp difference in ratio?
And are you suggesting that a fair number of models would prefer to do the shoot for free and then market (and sell) those photos, as opposed to being paid for the shoot but not be able to sell the photos?
Or that they'd prefer to work with photographers who can sell their photos on sites that generate revenue over time, which would be shared with the model?
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
PHP-Photography wrote:
Do you do programming for free if your employer gives you top of line computer and software ? In exchange for those things? Yes I would, but would that really be free?
Photographer
Brooklyn Bridge Images
Posts: 13200
Brooklyn, New York, US
Your Camera:Irrelevant
Your Images:Irrelevant
Sharing images with model:Irrelevant
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Your Camera:Irrelevant
Your Images:Irrelevant
Sharing images with model:Irrelevant ...and this is post of the week. OP a few tips. Try and negotiate a day rate rather then by the hour rate. You'll save some $$$ and might avoid some needless headaches. Odds are you're going to have to travel to seriously do this. The photographer you referenced is fantastic and published. This is a huge draw for models and I suspect he either pays very little to shoot them or nothing.* I'd also not worry about them selling the images. Gary is on to something with his post. Get out of the states. You are likely to find great looking art nude models willing to work with you for affordable rates, especially in eastern Europe.
Affordable as in $200.00 for an all day shoot. $100.00 for a few hours. Reach out to photographers like the one you admire and ask their thoughts. In many cases, models won't care what your work looks like. If you are published in magazines and books or have a really big social presence, maybe. They don't know about cameras. Sharing your work also means little but still offer it and again don't tell them they can't try and monetize it. If going to Europe isn't possible then consider finding a few reliable models and use them for most of your projects. Wigs and make-up as well as lighting can often make the same model look different. However going to Europe or Asia will likely yield more shoots for less. Flights there are often reasonable. Hostels are cheap and the models are simply stunning. Look here for models and most are from Europe. https://www.metart.com/
* I don't know what Stefan pays.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
...and this is post of the week. OP a few tips. Try and negotiate a day rate rather then by the hour rate. You'll save some $$$ and might avoid some needless headaches. Odds are you're going to have to travel to seriously do this. The photographer you referenced is fantastic and published. This is a huge draw for models and I suspect he either pays very little to shoot them or nothing.* I'd also not worry about them selling the images. Gary is on to something with his post. Get out of the states. You are likely to find great looking art nude models willing to work with you for affordable rates, especially in eastern Europe.
Affordable as in $200.00 for an all day shoot. $100.00 for a few hours. Reach out to photographers like the one you admire and ask their thoughts. In many cases, models won't care what your work looks like. If you are published in magazines and books or have a really big social presence, maybe. They don't know about cameras. Sharing your work also means little but still offer it and again don't tell them they can't try and monetize it. If going to Europe isn't possible then consider finding a few reliable models and use them for most of your projects. Wigs and make-up as well as lighting can often make the same model look different. However going to Europe or Asia will likely yield more shoots for less. Flights there are often reasonable. Hostels are cheap and the models are simply stunning. Look here for models and most are from Europe. https://www.metart.com/
* I don't know what Stefan pays. I'd consider it. But what are the nudity laws in Eastern European countries? I want to shoot outdoors. Not that I want to shoot in front of people, but strangers could stroll through.
In the U.S., the laws in most states are relaxed; you just can't reasonably expect that anyone will be offended (e.g. you shouldn't face any charges if you strongly expected that no one would stroll through).
Oh, I have messaged Soell before. But I only asked him about his aperture and focal length, and he kindly directed me to one of his pages where the exif is retained. He was very nice.
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
Generally, local nude models will charge $100-150 an hour depending on the size of the market. Models with solid social media followings may charge more. Most models will not travel to you or another location without 2-3 days paid work or the equivalent.
Your "perks" have no value to the models you approach to book. They want the right $$$, professional communication, exotic travel opportunities, and projects that involve big social media exposure through celebrities or big brands. Models of this caliber have many other sources of income and work and you won't get their attention unless you offer market rates.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Loki Studio wrote:
Generally, local nude models will charge $100-150 an hour depending on the size of the market. Models with solid social media followings may charge more. Most models will not travel to you or another location without 2-3 days paid work or the equivalent.
Your "perks" have no value to the models you approach to book. They want the right $$$, professional communication, exotic travel opportunities, and projects that involve big social media exposure through celebrities or big brands. Models of this caliber have many other sources of income and work and you won't get their attention unless you offer market rates. I assume then that offering paid travel to and from an exotic shoot location would be likely to affect their fee. Correct?
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
I'd consider it. But what are the nudity laws in Eastern European countries? I want to shoot outdoors. Not that I want to shoot in front of people, but strangers could stroll through.
In the U.S., the laws in most states are relaxed; you just can't reasonably expect that anyone will be offended (e.g. you shouldn't face any charges if you strongly expected that no one would stroll through).
Oh, I have messaged Soell before. But I only asked him about his aperture and focal length, and he kindly directed me to one of his pages where the exif is retained. He was very nice. I have no ideal what the laws are in European countries but lots of photographers all over Europe shoot nudes why couldn't you. I've shot nudes at lots of places in Texas, Illinois and other places with few problems. There is a link to some of my work on my profile here. I think the idea is to NOT shoot in places with a lot of foot traffic or places the public tends to stroll through. I mentioned Eastern Europe, specially Ukraine because I know some photographers in the past who've gone there and shot art and erotic nudes. If they could so could you and I also know they didn't pay a lot of money.
Why chance it though. I'm sure you'll figure things out.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I have no ideal what the laws are in European countries but lots of photographers all over Europe shoot nudes why couldn't you. I've shot nudes at lots of places in Texas, Illinois and other places with few problems. There is a link to some of my work on my profile here. I think the idea is to NOT shoot in places with a lot of foot traffic or places the public tends to stroll through. I mentioned Eastern Europe, specially Ukraine because I know some photographers in the past who've gone there and shot art and erotic nudes. If they could so could you and I also know they didn't pay a lot of money.
Why chance it though. I'm sure you'll figure things out. I understand it to be legal in some of the Western Europe countries, e.g. Germany; I just didn't know about Eastern. I'll look into Eastern more. It seems like a good idea.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30128
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I would suggest avoiding the Ukraine for safety reasons
Try Budapest or Prague
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Garry k wrote:
I would suggest avoiding the Ukraine for safety reasons
Try Budapest or Prague I looked at Prague's models just a little bit ago, and not only are there a lot of them, but they're very serious about their work. I saw one that offers to let you use her studio and has a camera man that will make a 4k BTS video for you.
It seems like a great place to hire models.
Photographer
tcphoto
Posts: 1030
Nashville, Tennessee, US
What if you're just some guy and have the most expensive gear, post other photographers work and don't want to pay models? Buying or renting some expensive medium format camera won't convince anyone to trade time for images. I'd find a local model to do a test and offer her a moderate fee to pose, if it goes well you will have images to share and find a better model.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
tcphoto wrote:
What if you're just some guy and have the most expensive gear, post other photographers work and don't want to pay models? Buying or renting some expensive medium format camera won't convince anyone to trade time for images. I'd find a local model to do a test and offer her a moderate fee to pose, if it goes well you will have images to share and find a better model. All legitimate concerns for the model, except I don't know how producing my own work would prove to her that it's not stolen.
Anyway, as far building my port: absolutely. I hope to do so this summer. I have a small one now, but what I have now isn't the same style as what I want to be doing.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30128
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
I looked at Prague's models just a little bit ago, and not only are there a lot of them, but they're very serious about their work. I saw one that offers to let you use her studio and has a camera man that will make a 4k BTS video for you.
It seems like a great place to hire models. I just did a browse search for Czech Models here on MM
75 per cent of those listed as recently active - do nudes ( and a few that say they don't - have nudes in their port )
I doubt You will find those sort of stats in any other country
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
I looked at Prague's models just a little bit ago, and not only are there a lot of them, but they're very serious about their work. I saw one that offers to let you use her studio and has a camera man that will make a 4k BTS video for you.
It seems like a great place to hire models. I have worked with a Czech model several times. She is beautiful and a great model!
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Garry k wrote:
I just did a browse search for Czech Models here on MM
75 per cent of those listed as recently active - do nudes ( and a few that say they don't - have nudes in their port )
I doubt You will find those sort of stats in any other country Indeed, I actually just looked at models in Ukraine, Vienna, Budapest, Italy, and Germany.
In my opinion, CZ (Prague) models are *by far* the best option.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I have worked with a Czech model several times. She is beautiful and a great model! I'm curious, did you go to Czech or did she visit USA?
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
I assume then that offering paid travel to and from an exotic shoot location would be likely to affect their fee. Correct? Not as much as you think. Most model quality women in their 20's with social media get offers every week for travel to fun vacation places from rich suitors. Your offer has to match their personal and professional goals.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
I'm curious, did you go to Czech or did she visit USA? I photographed her in Arizona.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30128
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Loki Studio wrote:
Not as much as you think. Most model quality women in their 20's with social media get offers every week for travel to fun vacation places from rich suitors. Your offer has to match their personal and professional goals. I know a local Photographer who travels a lot and thus earns a lot of travel miles
He has taken a few local Nude Art Models to exotic locations ( like Bali or Fiji ) to photograph them
My understanding is that he covers their flights and they cover their own expenses
There appears to be a double advantage for Models to do this - Firstly they enjoy a great vacation and Secondly it helps them network with other International Photographers ( ie I believe the Model who went to Fiji - went on to do a tour of Australia )
Strangely though I have not really seen any photos from these exotic shoots posted - which indicates to me that the photos themselves are not a significant factor in the equation
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30128
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Loki Studio wrote:
Not as much as you think. Most model quality women in their 20's with social media get offers every week for travel to fun vacation places from rich suitors. Your offer has to match their personal and professional goals. And the Real Influencer Models ( with a large number of social media followers ) don't even need rich suitors
but they might take their boyfriends or husbands along to snap photos for them
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
In my opinion, CZ (Prague) models are *by far* the best option. I have done several shoots in CZ.
There are lots of studios available and models have no problem working from apartments and hotels if you have references from other models.
Hourly rate for nude is 70-100 Eur / hour.
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Tony Lawrence wrote:
You are likely to find great looking art nude models willing to work with you for affordable rates, especially in eastern Europe.
Affordable as in $200.00 for an all day shoot. $100.00 for a few hours. Good luck finding a model in CZ or Hungary for $200/day.
Tony Lawrence wrote:
They don't know about cameras. Seems you don't know anything about EE models.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
PHP-Photography wrote:
Good luck finding a model in CZ or Hungary for $200/day. What's the typical fee for a full day shoot? You listed $70/hr, but often people discount things if you make larger purchases.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
PHP-Photography wrote:
I have done several shoots in CZ. Assuming that I'm unwilling to shoot suggestive images and therefore sites like met-art and femjoy would probably not be interested:
Do you know of any good ways to monetize the work I'd do? I'm not expecting to profit, but offsetting my costs would be nice. The only idea that I have is to eventually offer workshops. Other ideas?
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
What's the typical fee for a full day shoot? You listed $70/hr, but often people discount things if you make larger purchases. Sorry, I usually shoot for 3 hours so I have no idea what full day rates are.
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
Do you know of any good ways to monetize the work I'd do? I'm not expecting to profit, but offsetting my costs would be nice. The only idea that I have is to eventually offer workshops. Other ideas? That is THE question lots of photographers are asking these days but I don't have the answer.
Photographer
Ideal Portraits SD
Posts: 106
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
PHP-Photography wrote:
Sorry, I usually shoot for 3 hours so I have no idea what full day rates are. The girl I mentioned earlier charges $450 for 8 hours, which includes studio and light usage. I haven't seen anyone else advertise their day rates.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13559
Washington, Utah, US
Stephan has many outdoor location shoots. The cost of hiring models for exotic locations can vary greatly depending on where they are coming from, the location and the time spent shooting. If you are shooting at a state park or other outdoor location just 30 minutes from where a model lives, you may not have to pay any travel fees at all, just an hourly rate. (The sunset photo on my profile page was TF)
Flying a model to an exotic location for a few days, paying a day rate plus providing accommodation could be very expensive, but not necessarily. I once did a Caribbean sailing shoot with a model on a TF basis, but that's because she basically got a free vacation that didn't have a huge shoot time commitment.
Depending on location, you can probably find decent looking local models for $50/hour and do a quick shoot at a local location you have scouted out well. At the other extreme, you could spend thousands flying a model somewhere, paying accommodation, etc.
I typically do a road trip every year that includes doing some remote wilderness hiking. A thought I've had is to scout out areas close to cities that have a good supply of models and hire local talent. If some models flake, I'm still enjoying a fun road trip I would have done anyways.
I've noticed from a number of your posts that you seem to focus on model cost as if that's the determining factor of creating good images. Certainly Stephan has some descent looking models, but it's clearly the location, planning, creativity and post work that makes his images so wonderful.
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 2851
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Your Camera:Irrelevant
Your Images:Irrelevant
Sharing images with model:Irrelevant As a universal, all-encompassing statement, I disagree. While I recognize that there are some models for whom the above is absolutely true, the overwhelming majority of my portfolio (such as it is) was built predominantly because of the latter two points.
Images have value. They don't have the same value for everyone. I would argue that that is closer to being a more universal concept.
Model
Nachtzehren
Posts: 69
Durham, England, United Kingdom
As a model, what equipment the photographer uses has zero impact on what I charge for my time.
I am not going to lower my rate just because they have made the choice to spend X amount on their equipment. This is much like how I don't add to my rate when I have spent money on fitness classes, a new wig, nail treatments etc. Those costs are part and parcel of engaging in modelling, not something to be tacked on to the cost of a shoot itself.
I have worked with people who use exceptionally fancy kit all the way through to someone who used their mobile phone. They paid me, I did my job, job done.
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Ideal Portraits SD wrote:
The girl I mentioned earlier charges $450 for 8 hours, which includes studio and light usage. I haven't seen anyone else advertise their day rates. Have a look at casting calls, they often includes rates.
Models don't usually advertise their rates bc that would "lock" their rates. It's best to contact the model and ask.
Models do not like hagglers so it's your call to either accept the rate they ask or move on to the next model.
Photographer
Brooklyn Bridge Images
Posts: 13200
Brooklyn, New York, US
AgX wrote:
As a universal, all-encompassing statement, I disagree. While I recognize that there are some models for whom the above is absolutely true, the overwhelming majority of my portfolio (such as it is) was built predominantly because of the latter two points.
Images have value. They don't have the same value for everyone. I would argue that that is closer to being a more universal concept. Please see the post after you posted this
(By the way I agree my post was a generalization, of course it does not apply in all cases)
Photographer
tcphoto
Posts: 1030
Nashville, Tennessee, US
After more than 35 years in this business, I've found very few internet models that I'd pay to work with. As a model, I worked for a dozen years mainly in Chicago and Japan before pursuing a photo career. Recently, I find that most internet models think they are in the same category as so called, Influencers. Odds are, if you are not represented by an Agency with an actual office you might not be an actual model.
Photographers have much more invested in their craft compared to models. Are you telling me that girls would stop going to the gym, buying quality hair and make up products or salon treatments, if they stopped modeling? I'd love to hear the actual out of pocket cost of a photographers kit and time invested compared to a models beyond their normal expenses. I would suggest people read the book, Model by Micheal Gross for a little history on the business because it gives a great insight to the relationship between photographers and models.
|
