Sabrina Maree wrote:

Honestly, 18 year old aren't the best either. Huh. Maybe like...20?

LOL..are you serious?  I'm 18 years old.  At 17 I went to Hong Kong by myself and lived and worked for 2 months.  I was mature enough; a lot of young girls are.  And honestly, kids go away for college at 17 and 18 where they are also surrounded by drugs and alcohol, but you don't think they're mature enough to handle a runway show?

jukebox jenny wrote:
the only thing that bugs me about it is when there's a show that requires nudity (or even partial) and these girls are way underage.
there was a lingerie show recently that was going to have the girls in panties and topless with body paint.  well, for whatever reason there was no paint and these girls all had to go out topless with make up at most on their breasts and it was in a bar with nothing but disgusting drunks watching.
a) wrong spot for a show but
b) they're children still...walking topless or even in a sheer top...i think it's wrong.  but that's just my two cents.  model or not their still underage.

-JJ

That's illegal in so many ways... the bar should have been shut down and people doing the show arrested .

Sam_  wrote:

LOL..are you serious?  I'm 18 years old.  At 17 I went to Hong Kong by myself and lived and worked for 2 months.  I was mature enough; a lot of young girls are.  And honestly, kids go away for college at 17 and 18 where they are also surrounded by drugs and alcohol, but you don't think they're mature enough to handle a runway show?

Given that, Sam, I'd say you were the exception instead of the average - and we aren't worried about the exceptionally mature so much as we are the average becoming the exceptionally unfortunate.

Unfortunately, it's typical to see the same pressures put on teens in other areas - sports being a fantastic example. As long as there is a responsible and consenting guardian on hand, I don't really see any problems beyond the norm.

Sam_  wrote:

LOL..are you serious?  I'm 18 years old.  At 17 I went to Hong Kong by myself and lived and worked for 2 months.  I was mature enough; a lot of young girls are.  And honestly, kids go away for college at 17 and 18 where they are also surrounded by drugs and alcohol, but you don't think they're mature enough to handle a runway show?

I lived in London alone when I was 18. Doesn't mean I knew then as much as I know now. And will still learn more, hopefully.

I know as a teenager it's hard to be told you aren't as wise as you think you are... but it's true. And every year you realize you know less than you thought. By 50 I think we all feel stupid a wise man knows he knows nothing.

Drugs and alcohol in college are not the same as someone you deem far above you offering you something; someone with influence and power, or a model you always respected, or someone that doesn't care at ALL about you, but needs you to stay awake for a very long shoot. 18 year old's often feel invincible... what is one little hit going to do to them?

JadeDRed wrote:
From another view point do any adult women find it a little irritating to see these really young girls in fashion magazines and such when really you would rather see what they look like on someone you could relate more to, i.e. an adult?

I used to find the exact opposite when i was a child, all the models in the kids clothes we're fully developed girls in their late teens.

Saying that i haven't read a mainstream fashion magazine since i started studying fashion, its as pointless as reading last weeks news now.

I feel that way too...what do I care what a outfit looks like on a pre-pubescent teen? When I can actually afford those clothes in my 40's, I'm sure I'll care even less.
But that's not the point. We can all imagine that's what we will look like if we spend a grand on that dress you buy a fantasy. And that clerk working for commission always helps.

Jack Fleming Phtgrphy wrote:

Wait--SO, THE MODELS WERE UNDER AGE, TOPLESS, AND IN A DRINKING ESTABLISHMENT? This was in the United States? That bar should be closed down immediately and the police involved. I rarely take a fashion show at a bar, seriously. Rarely are these venues good ones for legitimate designers unless you are LA, NY, SF, or Miami and even many of those aren't going anywhere. Of course, this might be an exception for a private event rented out by a professional fashion organization.

Point is--there should not have been minors there in the first place. Second, who let them be topless, under age, and in a bar? Where were their Parents or the Agency?

i wasn't in it or there (i won't do a bar thing either unless it's a special circumstance) but i'm friends with a girl who was in it.  it's horribly messed up.  there was one girl there who was just super unhappy and her boyfriend was pissed off and blah blah blah but she did it because they told her to.  i'd have stepped in at that point had i been there but yeah.  horrible.  parents?  authorities?  anyone??
it was some local designer that just blew it big time.

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:
Some people will say things like "14 year olds are not mature enough, 16 isn't either, but 18 is okay" - which is a very ignorant and stereotypical position. Not all 14 year olds are the same, some 14 year olds are more mature and capable of making informed decisions better than grown adults.

Just because YOU were not mature at 14 or 16, don't project that onto other people.

SOME. Some are. Most aren't. Thrusting a child into an adult world is not something to take easily. Unless you don't care about the child in the first place. And since in this industry it's rare to have anyone doing anything but furthering their own cause, the model MUST be aware of this and it's a hard thing to grasp at that age. Not to mention, no matter how mature you may be, biologically your brain is nowhere NEAR fully developed, specifically the areas related to reasoning. No, neurologically speaking, a child simply cannot reason the way an adult can. And not by any fault of their own!

Of course there are very intelligent children and very stupid adults... there are also very good 5'6 runway models. The exceptions are not important.

Sabrina Maree wrote:

That's illegal in so many ways... the bar should have been shut down and people doing the show arrested .

had i been there the police would have been involved.  i heard it from another model who was there. 

-JJ

Sabrina Maree wrote:

I lived in London alone when I was 18. Doesn't mean I knew then as much as I know now. And will still learn more, hopefully.

I know as a teenager it's hard to be told you aren't as wise as you think you are... but it's true. And every year you realize you know less than you thought. By 50 I think we all feel stupid a wise man knows he knows nothing.

Drugs and alcohol in college are not the same as someone you deem far above you offering you something; someone with influence and power, or a model you always respected, or someone that doesn't care at ALL about you, but needs you to stay awake for a very long shoot. 18 year old's often feel invincible... what is one little hit going to do to them?

Sabrina I understand your point; I never implied that I believe I know everything, and of course as you grow with age you gain knowledge and experience.  But you honestly believe that 18 is to young for the modeling industry?  Why specifically modeling?  Like other things, it is a job.  There are other jobs and situations where a young person is going to face peer pressure and will need to make mature decisions.  People (teens especially) are always going to make mistakes, and these mistakes are necessary to grow and mature.  By simply saying "at 18 you are to young and cannot yet be trusted to make mature decisions", you would be denying teens this necessary opportunity for growth.

And besides, I can legally get married, own a firearm, vote for our country's leaders and if I choose, become a soldier.  At 18 I do not think I am to young to be a model.

Educated Savage wrote:

Unfortunately, it's typical to see the same pressures put on teens in other areas - sports being a fantastic example. As long as there is a responsible and consenting guardian on hand, I don't really see any problems beyond the norm.

I agree.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
SOME. Some are. Most aren't. Thrusting a child into an adult world is not something to take easily. Unless you don't care about the child in the first place. And since in this industry it's rare to have anyone doing anything but furthering their own cause, the model MUST be aware of this and it's a hard thing to grasp at that age. Not to mention, no matter how mature you may be, biologically your brain is nowhere NEAR fully developed, specifically the areas related to reasoning. No, neurologically speaking, a child simply cannot reason the way an adult can. And not by any fault of their own!

Of course there are very intelligent children and very stupid adults... there are also very good 5'6 runway models. The exceptions are not important.

I agree. You can be plenty smart, mature, and logical at age 16 but that doesn't change the fact that you are innately age 16 and subject to the whims of the hormonal rollar coasters that defines your age.

I just read about that girl named Morgan Featherton(is that her name?) mentioned in the article posted earlier. Can you imagine an 8 year old on the cover of Vogue? Eep. But of course, Vogue covers are decorated with actresses nowadays. >

Garry k wrote:
We hired a couple for our Vancouver Fashion Week a few weeks ago ( including one i found here )

All done up (hair and makeup ) they looked very much like young adult women - course they both stood 5'10 plus

So it was funny after one of our Shows to watch some of the Independent Photogs trying to chat up one of the girls

Afterwards I dropped the bombshell to them  ... "She's only 14 "

( response ) Silence

"And thats her mom over there checking you out "

Lol...a guy hit on me once in a coffee shop and when I told him I was fourteen...his face was priceless! Lol...I was flattered.

PYPI wrote:
14 is pushing the envelope. There has been some recent cases where industry veterans stopped this from happening. When they are used, they are used in a limited capacity.

http://blog.patyuen.com/2008/04/18/aust … -jagaciak/

isn't that daria werbowy in the hermes pic?
http://www.catwalkqueen.tv/2007/08/dari … y_f_1.html

Sam_  wrote:

Sabrina I understand your point; I never implied that I believe I know everything, and of course as you grow with age you gain knowledge and experience.  But you honestly believe that 18 is to young for the modeling industry?  Why specifically modeling?  Like other things, it is a job.  There are other jobs and situations where a young person is going to face peer pressure and will need to make mature decisions.  People (teens especially) are always going to make mistakes, and these mistakes are necessary to grow and mature.  By simply saying "at 18 you are to young and cannot yet be trusted to make mature decisions", you would be denying teens this necessary opportunity for growth.

And besides, I can legally get married, own a firearm, vote for our country's leaders and if I choose, become a soldier.  At 18 I do not think I am to young to be a model.

That's not what I said. I was trying to make a point about "what can we really do?"
I do think 18 is too young for many things, but I don't think it's young enough for anyone to decide what another person does.

No, I don't think you can always make mature decisions at 18, because you aren't equipped with the tools yet (experience nor fully developed grey matter). Some people will do better than others. You will definetley do better than a 14 year old.

But really, often I don't think anyone is old enough for this business (and I'm not even in fashion). I'm around 23 year olds I want to smack sense into all the time. It requires a certain strength that some people will never have, but some may have from an incredibly young age. Someone has to watch out for these girls though, because parents can't always be count on. I've often though maybe a group of social workers and psychologists that are there exclusively for very young models would be an excellent addition. They could be required to immediately remove girls that began to show signs of eating disorders or hard drug use, and to watch out for things like sexual abuse. Really, models of any age could benefit from that.

All kids will make mistakes, some will grow and some will be dead before they hit their 20's. But you will have the opportunity to make mistakes with modeling that you may have never have encountered in real life.

Garry k wrote:
Sasha



Well you could say that really you are sisters ( for moms sake )

she's the one who tells them she's my mom.

I guess she just wants to be known as a MILF.

which all my male friends and past boyfriends have definitely known her as hahahaha

pamela mars wrote:
isn't that daria werbowy in the hermes pic?
http://www.catwalkqueen.tv/2007/08/dari … y_f_1.html

Let me verify. You're right. Right campaign, wrong picture.

PYPI wrote:

Let me verify. You're right. Right campaign, wrong picture.

it's a beautiful pic anyway-i want to see the correct one now!

Sabrina Maree wrote:
To add to that:

By age 12 the brain is the size and weight of an adult's, though not fully functioning.

There have been many studies done on teens and adults with brain scans, measuring the water to fat content. Water indicates cells, fat indicates nerves. It's quite obvious a child's brain is not developed in the teen years.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/21/8174
Full text study on the topic.

Or, if you are a picture type person, the human brain developing from age 5 to 21. You can see from this, even at age 21 it's not perfect.



It's not a personal thing. You just can't expect a child to be an adult, no matter how mature they may seem.

so so so true!
life experience really is a factor-even little geniuses make huge mistakes.
also-this industry can really chew you up and spit you out.......but then again, so can ballet.

pamela mars wrote:

it's a beautiful pic anyway-i want to see the correct one now!

Corrected. http://blog.patyuen.com/2008/04/18/aust … -jagaciak/

PYPI wrote:

Corrected. http://blog.patyuen.com/2008/04/18/aust … -jagaciak/

aw! she's really cute!
love the shots!

Sabrina Maree wrote:
That's illegal in so many ways... the bar should have been shut down and people doing the show arrested .

What?  Which law is broken for an underage model in a sheer fabric in a fashion show?

Please enlighten us.

EDIT:  I am not talking about that specific bar case.  I am talking about fashion show.

PYPI wrote:
14 is pushing the envelope. There has been some recent cases where industry veterans stopped this from happening. When they are used, they are used in a limited capacity.

http://blog.patyuen.com/2008/04/18/aust … -jagaciak/

This is not all that new.

After her son, David's death,
Francesca Sorrenti made an attempt to clean up the industry even if symbolic in nature.

The industry did listen for a bit with increasing the model age for a time and this being the death nail into the coffin of heroin chic.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h … wanted=all

"Among Davide Sorrenti's clients were Detour, Interview, Surface, Ray Gun and I-D magazines and the Japanese fashion companies Hysteric Glamour and Matsuda. He had been dating James King, who just turned 18, a rising model who was the subject of a cover story in The New York Times Magazine exactly a year before Mr. Sorrenti's death. In the article, she admitted to getting involved in drugs at 15, when she started modeling, and insisted she was no longer using them."

White Russian wrote:
The younger you are and the sooner you have a goal in life - the better. Opinion based on my own childhood.

Ah, but you had a childhood.

lll wrote:

What?  Which law is broken for an underage model in a sheer fabric in a fashion show?

Please enlighten us.

EDIT:  I am not talking about that specific bar case.  I am talking about fashion show.

Well I'm talking about that specific bar case. So how does your question apply? If someone under 21 is in a bar that's grounds to get shut down period (unless you have a license to work all all this other jazz... and even then you need to be 18 plus and each person escorted by a guard, and breaks must be taken in a "liquor free" zone).

Not to mention, an underage model walking around topless (I don't know where you got "sheer material") in an establishment that was CERTAINLY not licensed for such purposes. Models under 18 may wear sheer material in certain circumstances, but it's not a "right" (in fact, if someone wore it in any public situation they would be arrested regardless of the age).

Maybe I'm missing your question...because this seems idiotically obvious to me.

butifull wrote:
thats cool. im 14 years old and im 5'9 and my name is jasmin. i wanna be a model

That's great honey. Let's remove the picture next to the pole to begin with...

butifull wrote:
thats cool. im 14 years old and im 5'9 and my name is jasmin. i wanna be a model

you def have a long way to go-and i agree about the stripper pole.
first step-change your style.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
The parents are not always present. They have jobs, relationships, and lives of their own. It would be basically impossible for a parent to accompany a budding young runway model on all her pursuits.

I just don't see the necessity. There are thousands of appropriate models over 16, it's not like there is a shortage of girls tall or thin enough. Why even bother with the *possible* problem? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm sure none of them are SO unique there isn't a model over 16 that could replace them.

A wise parent would pick and choose thier childs events ( so they could be accompanied )  at least in the early stages

White Russian wrote:
"if someone wore it in any public situation they would be arrested regardless of the age). "

it depends on the state and the country, and personally i don't think it's a good thing.
Isn't public nudity legal in Oregon? and I read on MM somewere that in NY state women are alowed to be topless in public?

It's not criminalized in Oregon (though that does not make it legal...it makes it not criminal). The thing is, if you try to enjoy that right and one little kid goes walking by, you've exposed yourself to a minor. And most parents would slaughter you at court.
This is what happened to one woman who tried to enjoy that law.
http://www.progress.org/fold265.htm

I don't know anything about NY though. Anyone else?

butifull wrote:
thats cool. im 14 years old and im 5'9 and my name is jasmin. i wanna be a model

take care.

Sabrina Maree wrote:

That's great honey. Let's remove the picture next to the pole to begin with...

I agree

M.hana wrote:
After her son, David's death,
Francesca Sorrenti made an attempt to clean up the industry even if symbolic in nature.

The industry did listen for a bit with increasing the model age for a time and this being the death nail into the coffin of heroin chic.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h … wanted=all

More

His death, in Manhattan, has motivated his mother to become an outspoken opponent of not only the heroin-chic imagery, but also the use of under-age models on strenuous fashion shoots, where drugs are increasingly part of the picture. On the ABC news program 20/20 and in magazines like French Vogue, she has called for more responsibility on the part of editors.