Image K wrote:
new model=wants all shots from shoot on a CD, unretouched, useable or not, and doesn't understand why his/her port never improves to the next level

new photographer=gives all shots on a CD, and loses creative control of his own product

seasoned model=has no need for all the shots from a shoot, since she knows that 17 shots of herself in the same outfit isn't going to make it into her book, only 1 is. She is very happy with 4-6 kick-ass images that will make her book "pop", and take her to the next level.

seasoned photographer=maintains creative control over a product with his name attached to it, releases 4-6 edited images that are ready to improve a model's book, and are zed-card quality.

I had two instances where allowing the model to choose her images was a win/win.

1.  Teen model (her mom) contacted me to shoot head shots for Teen Florida International.  Even though the "look" they wanted/needed to submit was discussed prior and at the shoot, in the end they chose a head shot that would NOT have been one of my top choices. 

She got all the images on CD.  She sent the ones she liked.

She won.

2.  Recording artist needed a CD-Rom cover shot.  Almost ditto of above.  She chose a shot for her cover shot that I NEVER would have selected from the shoot (and was not even in my top 20).  My wife was equally shocked at the ones she overlooked.  But in the end, she got what she wanted.

In both instances the model got the entire CD-Rom and were thrilled to select the images they felt were the best for them.

I don't press the shutter unless I like what I see and none of those images would embarrass me if used online or off.

So...   am I wrong here?

Christine Rose wrote:

Sports Illustrated Swim Suit Models ( Not athletes) -- totally different type of photography.

There are some pro photographers on this site and if you're trying to insult me you'd have to learn how to spell first.

SIGHHHHH....Look, I dont come on these things to fight or throw insults. I come to learn do's and donts and better myself in this industry. For you to tell me "I DONT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT" thats pretty harsh and un-called for. Honestly. I did take the time and looked at your port(s) And I admit, yes you do have nice work. But for your MM SPECIAL, with two looks etc, etc, how many pics with each look do you honestly take and how many do you edit? That was the origin of my points. With two wardrobes, do you need to be trigger happy and take as many as 500 or even 300 shots if it is for example, A studio shoot? Or can you get a descent amount of what is needed with about 100 shots per look?  And Im not a spelling bee champ niether so sorry =-)

Michael James Photo wrote:

I had two instances where allowing the model to choose her images was a win/win.

1.  Teen model (her mom) contacted me to shoot head shots for Teen Florida International.  Even though the "look" they wanted/needed to submit was discussed prior and at the shoot, in the end they chose a head shot that would NOT have been one of my top choices. 

She got all the images on CD.  She sent the ones she liked.

She won.

2.  Recording artist needed a CD-Rom cover shot.  Almost ditto of above.  She chose a shot for her cover shot that I NEVER would have selected from the shoot (and was not even in my top 20).  My wife was equally shocked at the ones she overlooked.  But in the end, she got what she wanted.

In both instances the model got the entire CD-Rom and were thrilled to select the images they felt were the best for them.

I don't press the shutter unless I like what I see and none of those images would embarrass me if used online or off.

So...   am I wrong here?

if it works for you -- then stay with it. I find the opposite -- when I shoot headshots the agency and I almost always agree on what the best image is. The client often doesn't know what a good commercial headshot looks like -- esp if they are new to the business. But that is entirely up to you and your client. I explain my terms right up front with pay clients and my very limited TF clients.

Michael James Photo wrote:
I had two instances where allowing the model to choose her images was a win/win.

1.  Teen model (her mom) contacted me to shoot head shots for Teen Florida International.  Even though the "look" they wanted/needed to submit was discussed prior and at the shoot, in the end they chose a head shot that would NOT have been one of my top choices. 

She got all the images on CD.  She sent the ones she liked.

She won.

2.  Recording artist needed a CD-Rom cover shot.  Almost ditto of above.  She chose a shot for her cover shot that I NEVER would have selected from the shoot (and was not even in my top 20).  My wife was equally shocked at the ones she overlooked.  But in the end, she got what she wanted.

In both instances the model got the entire CD-Rom and were thrilled to select the images they felt were the best for them.

I don't press the shutter unless I like what I see and none of those images would embarrass me if used online or off.

So...   am I wrong here?

I didn't stop giving out full cd's awhile ago because of all the many wins...it was because of the few times I got screwed over.  Now my system is I don't give out any that haven't been fully edited, which due to time involved will be whatever are the very best.

MeganElizabeth wrote:
... A lot are thinking that 4 pics on a CD is worth a half day-full(to more)day for you.

you seem to do mostly fashion work. those four images could be an entire day or more of retouching on the photographer's part. With my fine art work i give MANY more images..but there is so little clean up involved in post that in a few days time i can knock out 20 or more images from a great shoot. And the model gets a CD of everything in low res for them to chose from. now my OWN problem lately has been models doing their own clean ups or having other photographers do it. i now put in my release that the images on the first CD are strictly for the model and friends/agent to view and make selections from. i usually say pick 5 and prioritize them and Those I'll clen up specifically for you. but then I Email ready to post images of everything i clean up which often is WAY to many. LOL!

Oh..and My references will tell you this is true...maybe you need to check reference in the future. if you feel screwed by a photographer likely you are not the only one. Unless you are the problem in the shoot which i hope is not the case. I have had 3 total models who got five shots only becasue I got none I could use due to them not living up to their promises.

The Main Man wrote:
SIGHHHHH....Look, I dont come on these things to fight or throw insults. I come to learn do's and donts and better myself in this industry. For you to tell me "I DONT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT" thats pretty harsh and un-called for. Honestly. I did take the time and looked at your port(s) And I admit, yes you do have nice work. But for your MM SPECIAL, with two looks etc, etc, how many pics with each look do you honestly take and how many do you edit? That was the origin of my points. With two wardrobes, do you need to be trigger happy and take as many as 500 or even 300 shots if it is for example, A studio shoot? Or can you get a descent amount of what is needed with about 100 shots per look?  And Im not a spelling bee champ niether so sorry =-)

I take what I need. I don't take 500 images for one look. Way too much editing -- but you are talking TF anyway -- no problem -- anyone who demands all images -- Next . . . I don't do much TF anyway unless someone has a special look, agency material, or a unique look for my personal work.

I am fairly certain that you are new to the industry hence I said you don't know what you are talking about -- you also said pro photographers only shoot a few images. WRONG. If you are ever on a real set see how many photos Demarchelier, Liebowitz, joe blow fashion photographer takes.  I think you'd be surprised.

Look at the quality of the photographers offering all Images on CD and then some of the other photographers ( Like PYPI) saying they only give a few from each look. Then talk to me --

Christine Rose wrote:

I take what I need. I don't take 500 images for one look. Way too much editing -- but you are talking TF anyway -- no problem -- anyone who demands all images -- Next . . . I don't do much TF anyway unless someone has a special look, agency material, or a unique look for my personal work.

I am fairly certain that you are new to the industry hence I said you don't know what you are talking about -- you also said pro photographers only shoot a few images. WRONG. If you are ever on a real set see how many photos Demarchelier, Liebowitz, joe blow fashion photographer takes.  I think you'd be surprised.

Look at the quality of the photographers offering all Images on CD and then some of the other photographers ( Like PYPI) saying they only give a few from each look. Then talk to me --

I love how you use both your ports to continue down talking me. By the way, I did check out PYPI's port and showed him the same respect I was trying to show you. Check out tag section if you have a chance and that was before your last post. im glad we got to 'chat' with all your knowledge and background credits i did learn alot form your ports as well. So thank you.

The Main Man wrote:
how many pics with each look do you honestly take and how many do you edit?

I generally shoot between 150 and 200 frames per look, maybe more if it's going well. Of of those I will select (usually) about 10%) as good enough to be retouched if the model wishes, but for myself I will retouch at most one or two (unless I'm making a collage).

As I posted before, it can take 5 hours or more to properly retouch a beauty shot, so giving the model 20 retouched beauty shots could take me 100 hours or more.... and for what? Who needs 20 very similar retouched shots from the same shoot?

My TF* terms are a minimum of 4 retouched shots - two of the model's choosing and two of mine. I may do more if I like them and can use them for myself, otherwise I'm happy to retouch extras if the model pays for the retouching.

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

Virginia Savelle wrote:

It's that kind of ego and refusal to explore that prevents even greater art from being created.  A fresh eye very often sees things that you don't.

What YOU fail to comprehend (unless it's on page 3-5) is that anything done to an image that is made public reflects on the photographer.  So WE, as photographers don't want someone's biased opinion being a factor in whether less than perfect work is displayed on the internet.  I'm sure that for the most part we have some degree of artistic talent or models wouldn't be asking to do shoots with us.  So we are who determines who is shown to the world.

It has nothing to do with Ego.  I think it has more to do with common sense.

Stefano Brunesci wrote:

I generally shoot between 150 and 200 frames per look, maybe more if it's going well. Of of those I will select (usually) about 10%) as good enough to be retouched if the model wishes, but for myself I will retouch at most one or two (unless I'm making a collage).

As I posted before, it can take 5 hours or more to properly retouch a beauty shot, so giving the model 20 retouched beauty shots could take me 100 hours or more.... and for what? Who needs 20 very similar retouched shots from the same shoot?

My TF* terms are a minimum of 4 retouched shots - two of the model's choosing and two of mine. I may do more if I like them and can use them for myself, otherwise I'm happy to retouch extras if the model pays for the retouching.

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

Five hours for one image?  You must have a lot of available time on your hands or something.

And after you give the model her whopping 4 images and you process more, she has to buy them?   I don't understand why you're so generous.

DJH Photo wrote:
I didn't stop giving out full cd's awhile ago because of all the many wins...it was because of the few times I got screwed over.  Now my system is I don't give out any that haven't been fully edited, which due to time involved will be whatever are the very best.

I can understand why you would take that approach based on your experience.

The OP seemed to be searching for what is typical.  I've read all the posts from the beginning.  I agree with many of the comments.  For me it depends on the expectations on both ends... and I try to collaborate with the model to make the TFP a win/win for both of us.

Greg Cobb Photography wrote:

Five hours for one image?  You must have a lot of available time on your hands or something.

And after you give the model her whopping 4 images and you process more, she has to buy them?   I don't understand why you're so generous.

I don't know how many hours I spent on this image but it was a lot. It was hell trying to isolate all the areas between her blond hair and skin. It was not part of the original agreement. I just did it for fun.

DKLEE STUDIO wrote:
of course... i am sure i can get any top model to do a trade... they give me their time, i trade them a 40 ft. yacht... riiiiiiiight....

Just because you don't have the skills to trade your services for other people's services doesn't mean it doesn't happen...

Top models have no interest in yachts, they want cash or diamonds...

The Main Man wrote:

SIGHHHHH....Look, I dont come on these things to fight or throw insults. I come to learn do's and donts and better myself in this industry. For you to tell me "I DONT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT" thats pretty harsh and un-called for. Honestly. I did take the time and looked at your port(s) And I admit, yes you do have nice work. But for your MM SPECIAL, with two looks etc, etc, how many pics with each look do you honestly take and how many do you edit? That was the origin of my points. With two wardrobes, do you need to be trigger happy and take as many as 500 or even 300 shots if it is for example, A studio shoot? Or can you get a descent amount of what is needed with about 100 shots per look?  And Im not a spelling bee champ niether so sorry =-)

I see what you're getting at but as a model, don't worry about the journey but worry about the destination. The final image is the goal. Regardless of if the photographer takes 10 picture or 200 pictures to get there, concern yourself with only the final result. If you think in ratios as some has suggested, you might feel cheated if you receive only 1 image if 100 was shot. But if you think in terms of getting one or two good images from that look, you will be happy when you get those two pictures regardless of how many it took to get there.

On a related note, when I shoot runway, there's always a few photographers who do what we call spray and pray. They hold down the shutter button and hope something good comes from it. They are real obvious because most shooters on the riser have a rhythm so you can hear when they shoot in burst and then stop when they should not be shooting. The amateur ones will continue to fire when everyone else is pausing.

Greg Cobb Photography wrote:
Five hours for one image?  You must have a lot of available time on your hands or something.

No - but I prefer to retouch properly rather than just hit the blur button and hope for the best. For beauty images with D&B at pixel level that can easily take 5 hours. For fashion shots with less intensive skin work, maybe half an hour.

Greg Cobb Photography wrote:
And after you give the model her whopping 4 images and you process more, she has to buy them?   I don't understand why you're so generous.

I only charge for retouching of shots required by the model in addition to the free retouches specified in the TF* contract. I specify a minimum of 4 free shots but it's usually a few more than that anyway if I like the results of the shoot. The payment option is only there so that if the model wants 20 similar shots retouched then she can get them, albeit that she has to pay for them. To be honest, none of the models I've worked with yet has paid for retouching as all have seemed to be happy with what I've done for them for free. However, the payment option is there just in case....

I don't see how this is generous or not generous. It seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise to me: give a specified minimum of free shots and charge for any extras.

I send all potential models a copy of my TF* agreement prior to the shoot and if they think that my terms are unreasonable then they don't have to shoot with me. And to be honest, if a model feels that she has a right to 100 retouched images on a CD within 3 days of the shoot, plus all the RAW files, shared copyright and 50% of any future sales then I'm not interested in working with her in the first place!

Erica Kosa wrote:
My biggest word of advice is meet whoever you are doing TFP first before the shoot! Whether you are a model or a photographer this is HUGELY beneficial. You first off, can spend 30 minutes with them and tell right away if it will/will not work just based on personality. You save yourself hours of time shooting and money (if you are buying clothes as the model or burning battery on your camera). Honestly, you wouldn't work for a company without interviewing with them first would you? Modeling AND photography are both jobs. People need to remember that (especially those coming into the industry and still a little new). A few minutes of conversation will save you a ton of trouble later. Just my thoughts on this whole convo...

To be honest, I'm not really looking for dates or friends here so chemistry does not mean that much to me unless I'm looking for a muse. I shoot them, I give them the pics, and I may never talk to them ever again. It's just a job, it's not a long term relationship.

PYPI FASHION wrote:

I see what you're getting at but as a model, don't worry about the journey but worry about the destination. The final image is the goal. Regardless of if the photographer takes 10 picture or 200 pictures to get there, concern yourself with only the final result. If you think in ratios as some has suggested, you might feel cheated if you receive only 1 image if 100 was shot. But if you think in terms of getting one or two good images from that look, you will be happy when you get those two pictures regardless of how many it took to get there.

On a related note, when I shoot runway, there's always a few photographers who do what we call spray and pray. They hold down the shutter button and hope something good comes from it. They are real obvious because most shooters on the riser have a rhythm so you can hear when they shoot in burst and then stop when they should not be shooting. The amateur ones will continue to fire when everyone else is pausing.

Thank you PYPI. I see crystal clear what you mean when you say the final image is the goal. i will take that and use it to better myself when I shoot again.

Michael James Photo wrote:

I had two instances where allowing the model to choose her images was a win/win.

1.  Teen model (her mom) contacted me to shoot head shots for Teen Florida International.  Even though the "look" they wanted/needed to submit was discussed prior and at the shoot, in the end they chose a head shot that would NOT have been one of my top choices. 

She got all the images on CD.  She sent the ones she liked.

She won.

2.  Recording artist needed a CD-Rom cover shot.  Almost ditto of above.  She chose a shot for her cover shot that I NEVER would have selected from the shoot (and was not even in my top 20).  My wife was equally shocked at the ones she overlooked.  But in the end, she got what she wanted.

In both instances the model got the entire CD-Rom and were thrilled to select the images they felt were the best for them.

I don't press the shutter unless I like what I see and none of those images would embarrass me if used online or off.

So...   am I wrong here?

No, you are not wrong. You are completely free to conduct business as you see fit.

I merely pointed out the correlation between experience and expectations that I have noticed in my experience. There are exceptions to every rule.

And I involve models in the selection process as well.

PYPI FASHION wrote:
Here's a tip for models. You will see responses from photographers here. Some will say they give a cd of all images. Some will say they will only give a few selected images. Go look at the ports of those two groups and ask yourself who you would rather shoot with.

best advice !

Just Ask LLC wrote:
Well here is a problem that has plagued me and blessed me both at the same time...

Since I shoot for detail, most of my images are shot for the post processing that I do.

That being said, there are so many professional image hosting sites out here... why not post the images there.  Let the subject go on-line and review which ones that he/she wants and there for gets exactly what he/she wants from the shoot.  And guess what?  You don't have to burn a CD/DVD!!!!  You can e-mail the print readies most of the time directly to the subject.  If the subject would like more above the approved agreement, then they can always go back, within a reasonable amount of time and choose more, whether they have to pay for them or not.... If you as a photographer are squeamish about others seeing your unedited work, then guess what, you can put a password on it....

------------------------------

Very good idea Randal, another option is to do what we pros use to do back in the 35mm & Medium format film era. Why not simply process your images on contact sheets with multiple images on a sheet [6 to 8 images per page].

This can be easily done via photo-shop I believe in the batch-menu. This truly provides thumbnail size images that can clearly be viewed on a computer monitor without the use of a loupe [remember the loupe - probably not ].

With this approach, the model can pre-view the shots from the shoot on the computer, this limits the need to burn a boat load of images to a CD [you save the CD, postage stamp, gas to the post office, and the envelope -LOL],  zip the file and send the contact sheets via email to the client, and you do not have to worry about image reproduction.

This is just a suggestion for the models to discuss with the photographer regarding the image proofing from the shoot

Timeless

The Main Man wrote:

I love how you use both your ports to continue down talking me. By the way, I did check out PYPI's port and showed him the same respect I was trying to show you. Check out tag section if you have a chance and that was before your last post. im glad we got to 'chat' with all your knowledge and background credits i did learn alot form your ports as well. So thank you.

I did not realize I was on my other mm port which I am getting ready to shut down. I rarely even check it. Pretty obvious it's the same person because they are both based on my name.

Not trying to be tricky -- I am pretty straight up. Good luck.

MeganElizabeth wrote:
Honestly, I have communicated this. I'm finding photographers are saying one thing(to get me to shoot with them) and then only ending up getting a few images later when I have no control after the shoot is done.
The part you have to realize, its burning all of us good models out as well. Soon you guys might not have reasonable talent to pick through. I only do the tests because I LOVE being creative. but in return I expect to get my work back.

OK, what if you idea of creativity just did not work out, to your untrained eye ... we as photogs should just put our reputation and style on the line because u think a shitty image is creative. every time an a model takes a "creative" image that is just not up to par. It actually hurts the photogs. when I see I shitty pic on a models port first thing I think to is who took this?

what you are saying is you want to be a model but also make decisions based on something you may know nothing about. Also, the model is the canvas and the photog is the artist... IMO