Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 
But - models: I love photographing 'em all. I've shot asians, african-americans, indians (asian and american) redheads, blondes, whatever. Tall ones and short ones, skinny ones and curvy ones. Ya know what? I'll tell you a secret:
They're all perfect.

mjr.

Well stated.

Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 

Xtreme's right - we're saying the same thing. See, I think the difference is that where you see "boring perfection" I see infinite layers of detail. Nadja actually had nearly exactly the same measurements as Christy Turlington - are they both boring perfect clones? Hell no!
mjr.

Ok, I don't see much to argue with.  The error was mine for over generalizing or perhaps stereotyping.  I don't really think that all perfect-10's are the same.  I think the only thing I wanted to communicate was that I liked to occasionally see someone do something a little different and that I don't like seeing everyone given the same advice.  Granted, if everyone did something different then I would probably complain about that too.  I'll give it to you I think.  We were both simply going in different directions I think.

Posted by alexwh: 
From up here in Canada this whole flap looks like one that is completely indefensible from the part of the male side of the human spectrum.

I think that we all have the right to dream our dreams. If you cannot say nice things about someone's photographs it is better to say nothing. I am a member of MM just for fun and I don't have pretensions of being a hot-shot glamour photographer. But letters to this 19 year-old were not in fun. I give Moonsbreath all my support. This here MM has to be liberated just a bit (even a bit will help). 

Flip flop?  Me?  never?

Ok, well depsite what I said earlier, the fact of the matter is that she is in the business of image and image is everything.  She is selling herself and to do so she must appeal to the buyers.  It's not chauvinistic to expect a certain look.  I am totally open to a wide range of looks, but as a model you must expect a certain degree of physical critique... and that is exactly what she should have expected when she posted.

The trick is I think that models should do their own thing and somewhere there will be photographer who is looking for what they have.  If they want to be 'industry'... then to be honest she probably has to listen to those who have posted here.

Posted by alexwh: 
But letters to this 19 year-old were not in fun.

No, they were serious well-intentioned advice.

Both Xtreme and I were careful to try to word our advice so it was tactful but accurate. We were not the ones who were being rude. We were not the ones who began name-calling. We didn't drag a political/ideological agenda into the discussion.

Someone asked for help on getting along in a commercial industry. 2 veterans, who've been working in that industry for a long time gave some pretty matter-of-fact suggestions. That's "male side" and "indefensible"?? Can you explain a little bit more?

Listen, if some guy posted and said he wanted to be a runway model for women's lingerie, would we be out of line if I  pointed out tactfully that he was gonna maybe have his work cut out for him to make it to the top?

mjr.

Posted by alexwh: 
Is this here MM industry?

Well it's not a role playing game.

Most of the time I think photogs online blow smoke up someone's ass just to get a "photo date" out of a girl.

There is nothing wrong with telling someone the facts in a critique. I was not rude or out of line in giving her advice that will help her if she is indeed interested in a career as a commercial model.

You, on the other hand, by not saying anything or offering unrealistic goals are not helping to educate anyone.

Even before I became a photographer, I spent countless hours looking through images from Ford and other agencies to book models for Fortune-500 companies. I know what the marketing directors want.

Really, I should be paid for my advice, not scolded by you.

Posted by alexwh: 
Is this here MM industry?

This isn't F-ing "Waitress Mayhem" is it? This isn't F-ing "Garage Mechanic Mayhem" is it? This isn't F-ing "myspace look here are pictures of me in my underwear y'all! Mayhem" is it?

Are you accusing Diane of not being serious about modelling? Read her profile - the part where she says she's serious about modelling and how she's been doing it since '04 and how she's trained at Barbizon, etc. If she's that serious about modelling, she deserves honest advice from professionals, if she asks for it.

This isn't "Political Correctness Mayhem" or "Tell People What They Want to Hear Mayhem." Here's this girl trying to get advice on modelling and the peanut gallery's best advice to her is that male positions are indefensible and that she should avoid anorexia. That's great. Why don't get off your political stump and help her with her modelling, oh mighty wise one.

mjr.

Posted by alexwh: 
If you cannot say nice things about someone's photographs it is better to say nothing.

That statement flies in the face of what a critique is.

cri·tique n. A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.

crit·i·cal adj. Inclined to judge severely and find fault.

My comments were helpful to a serious model.

Posted by alexwh: 
UK Tony said:

"Xtreme, how could you!!! Be so brutally honest, that is.

Diane, I think you are just right, but it does look like Xtreme knows what he is talking about, if you have a look at Xtreme's port you will see a stunning tit shot, I think you get one like this done before you drop 20Kg"

I would be terribly offended if I were a woman to read that "tit shot" comment and I am offended anyway even though I am a man. As for the definition of critique I may add that one very good definition of a gentleman is one who never replies to a woman's, "Guess how old I am." The better part of valor.... 

You need a sense of humor if you are offended by the breast comment. You also need a pair of reading glasses if you are trying to accuse me of making it.

You can have fun all you want on MM, but I'm not sexist like you are. I treat everyone just as badly regardless of gender.

Why do you insist on shooting the messenger?

Posted by alexwh: 
Marcus, I and many millions read (I repeat read) about WMDs being around in a certain country. They weren't. Reading facts don't make them facts.

What the heck are you talking about??  I suggest you read a model's profile and you come back with something about weapons of mass destruction? What's in the water up there?

mjr.

Posted by alexwh: 
I am not sexist. I respect women. Diane is 19. My granddaugther is 7. If someone ever tells her what you told Diane (and I am alive) they would be forced to apologize. If you are supposed to be a sensitivie musician and appreciates the arts then get down from your high horse and tell Diane you didn't mean to be so brutal.

If we were as brutal as you were to her to Diane to most of the photographers here they would choke on their memory cards.

Saying there are WMDs doesn't make it so, just as saying the following is brutal doesn't make it so:

Don't get mad or your feelings hurt, but the main issue is that you have a few extra pounds if you want to be a commercial model.

This is one of the reasons the mirror shot isn't working.

Clients do not want to hire a model that they have to worry about what angle will she look good from.

"Plus size" is size 14 or so, and in porportion. You are not even approaching that size.

You would do well to get into a regular aerobics routine or hire a personal trainer.

I'm sure a photographer with 30 years experience would know what I said was correct.

If I ever do want your opinion of my work, I will ask for it, even though you are trying your hardest to make implied comments throughout this thread. It's kind of hypocritical to take the high road but cast stones along the way.

I am who I am. I say what I mean. I don't pussy foot around, or put on airs.

I'm a big boy and can take it. My portfolio online is just that, an online portfolio aimed at the internet crowd. Don't make the mistake of trying to judge me based on what you see here.

You are posting an awful lot, but haven't said anything about Diane as a model. You seem to have an issue with critiques on MM, or a personal issue with Marcus or myself. In fact your comments about her imply that you think this is just a dream and she will never make it. You are the nasty one.

Personally I will stand behind what I said as being correct and in good taste.

Posted by alexwh: 
I am simply saying that not all released pocket books can be riveting blockbusters (even if it says so on the cover). Many here will never be models or photographers (in spite of the written credentials).

I think that, someplace in this is something relevant, but I just can't find it. Must be I'm retarded or something, but I'm having trouble finding what pocket books have to do with modeling. Or are you talking about pocket books and Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Many are dreamers and they should be allowed to dream.

We're talking about a young lady whose profile says she's serious about modelling, and who's been serious enough about modelling that she went to Barbizon, etc. Now what does dreaming and dreamers and pocket books have to do with whether or not someone who wants to become a professional can ask for advice without getting a bunch of political esoterica shoved in her face?

We are here for fun. Or is this MM really for getting business?

Apparently you're here for fun. You appear to enjoy playing head-games and are just looking for a fun argument to weigh in on. You're quite the master debater, that's for sure.

Why don't you ask Diane if she's here for fun or if she's here because she wants to be a model?? I responded to her based on her profile, which sure looks like the profile of someone who wants to be a model.

You sound like you're just enjoying farting around with words and throwing in red herrings and obscure references to weapons of mass destruction or whatnot because, apparently, you're incapable of uttering the words "I screwed up."  Would you do us all a favor and read the young lady's profile, ask yourself if she looks like the kind of sincere young lady who might ask how to become a better model, and then ask yourself if - whether you agree with us or not - Xtreme and I weren't trying to make some good faith suggestions about the business of modelling?

Is that too much to ask?

mjr.

Posted by alexwh: 
This is my last post in this thread. The comment on brutal was written by Tony and not by me.

Diane even if these men do not apologize to you I will since I, too am a man. It would seem that Southern gentility and manners might creep up to Canada but Florida is just too far South. 

You should apologize for implying that her modeling is just a dream that she will never reach.

All I said was she should lose a few pounds.

You are very dark.

Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 

Posted by alexwh: 
I am simply saying that not all released pocket books can be riveting blockbusters (even if it says so on the cover). Many here will never be models or photographers (in spite of the written credentials).

I think that, someplace in this is something relevant, but I just can't find it. Must be I'm retarded or something, but I'm having trouble finding what pocket books have to do with modeling. Or are you talking about pocket books and Weapons of Mass Destruction?

He is comparing Diane to a pocket book that will never be a blockbuster.

He is saying she doesn't have what it takes, so don't say anything but nice things to her and let her dreams fall apart in the real world.

I don't agree with any of it, and I think he is rather ballsy to make such an argument while pretending to defend the same person he is dismissing as a pocket book.

Posted by Moonsbreath: 
It shows how you're not going to be pushed around by any loud-mouthed broad with an educated opinion.

You're not pushing me around. You were interrupting me and Xtreme trying to give an aspiring model some advice by interjecting with your personal issues and agenda. You were trying to push me around, maybe, and you lost your temper when I slapped you down for it.

I don't (at all) deny your right to put your $.02 in and state your personal preferences - in fact (as you sort of pointed out) by suggesting that Diane might want to lose a few pounds, Xtreme and I were also injecting our own personal preferences. But I think that saying something like "Don't listen to what Moonsbreath says" - when we haven't even been properly introduced - is pretty rude.

Amazingly, though, it was OK for you to charge in and call me "Neanderthal" and start dragging the discussion into mud-slinging and political diatribe - and when I tried to blow you off  with similar words of derision, you leapt for the moral high ground. So, tell me which way do you want it - do you want name-calling or do you want a clean debate? But, either way, why don't you take it someplace else - this was a thread that you hijacked with your personal ("I used to have anorexia") agenda, when all I was trying to do was offer some of what I see as practical advice.

I will concede to you this: As long as photographers like you propagate these standards (and for some they ARE impossible), this battle will ensue.

Are you saying it'd be impossible for Diane to lose a couple of pounds? Doesn't look like it to me. Or are you saying it'd be impossible for you to lose a couple of pounds? Judging from how passionate you are about this issue (and the fact that Diane is obviously in pretty darned good shape right now) I'm guessing the latter. So you're really talking about yourself, aren't you? You're attacking me because of something I said to someone else, because of how it made you feel about yourself.

Your baggage is dragging too far behind you; I think you keep tripping over it.

From what demon were you spawned? You're the one who has their own f-ing agenda.  You have totally dominated this topic and have horribly insulted anyone who's offered their opinion.

Oh, excuse me? You're the one who called me Neanderthal and got the name-calling ball rolling. You're the one who started with the horrible insults. You made me cry, when I read that the first time. I may be traumatized for life. I may be so traumatized that any time anyone posts a thread in which someone even implies someone isn't human(*) I'll go jumping in and sidetrack it with my own emotional baggage.

Nah, I won't do that. One person like you is enough for MM.

mjr.
(*isn't the current operating theory that the neanderthals were a near-branch of humans who went extinct? literally, calling someone a neanderthal is at least implying they are subhuman.)

Posted by Moonsbreath: 
I'm leaving this topic as it has totally gone off-course--partly my fault

Partly? That's cute.

partly yours.

I'm not falling for that one. The old "you share the blame but I'm leaving this thread *waah* *waah* I can't HEAR you because I have my fingers stuck in my ears" routine. Grow up a little bit. If you go around attacking people, sometimes they'll defend themselves more effectively than you're used to.  I guess in your little world I "share the blame" with you because I didn't just roll over on my back and try to pacify you when you launched into me and Xtreme without provocation.

But I'll be sure to watch for more of your opinion in other threads.

Followed by the "I am going to keep an eye on you and see if I can slam you in other threads as a way of getting childish revenge."

You're a class act, I gotta hand it to you.

mjr.

Posted by Cindy Crabb: 
What I took from the other side of the camera is that there is something for everyone in the modeling industry.  Sexy and beautiful is a personal take.  Is this woman right for Cosmo?  No.  Is she right for a host of other venues?  Yes. 
Beauty is what people percieve it is.  Personally, I dig short stocky musclely guys with cute smiles and reading glasses.
:-)  And before someone tells me that these kinds of men don't find work, pick up a mag, flip through it, concentrate on commercial photography, and then tell me you don't see these types.
Peace!

From what I see, the most work for males is as lifestyle models. This is why they tend to be more popular in their 40s.