Posted by Marcus J. Ranum:
Well stated.
Jul 05 05 09:08 pm Link Posted by Marcus J. Ranum:
Ok, I don't see much to argue with. The error was mine for over generalizing or perhaps stereotyping. I don't really think that all perfect-10's are the same. I think the only thing I wanted to communicate was that I liked to occasionally see someone do something a little different and that I don't like seeing everyone given the same advice. Granted, if everyone did something different then I would probably complain about that too. I'll give it to you I think. We were both simply going in different directions I think. Jul 05 05 09:12 pm Link From up here in Canada this whole flap looks like one that is completely indefensible from the part of the male side of the human spectrum.
I think that we all have the right to dream our dreams. If you cannot say nice things about someone's photographs it is better to say nothing. I am a member of MM just for fun and I don't have pretensions of being a hot-shot glamour photographer. But letters to this 19 year-old were not in fun. I give Moonsbreath all my support. This here MM has to be liberated just a bit (even a bit will help). Jul 05 05 09:13 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
Flip flop? Me? never?
Jul 05 05 09:19 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
No, they were serious well-intentioned advice.
Jul 05 05 09:23 pm Link Is this here MM industry?
Jul 05 05 09:23 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
Well it's not a role playing game.
Jul 05 05 09:30 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
This isn't F-ing "Waitress Mayhem" is it? This isn't F-ing "Garage Mechanic Mayhem" is it? This isn't F-ing "myspace look here are pictures of me in my underwear y'all! Mayhem" is it?
Jul 05 05 09:31 pm Link *Clapping loudlY...whistling...cheering* Bravo, Marcus! Utilizing your incredible knowledge of amateur psychology, you have reduced those of us ball-sy enough to state our opinions to "pussy-whipped males and body-image Nazi females". We're all f-ing proud of you for taking the hard-nosed stance. It shows how you're not going to be pushed around by any loud-mouthed broad with an educated opinion. Good for you!
No one was accusing her of not being serious about modeling. What the hell are you talking about? Oooooh, don't let your emotions get in the way of your judgement now. I will concede to you this: As long as photographers like you propagate these standards (and for some they ARE impossible), this battle will ensue. From what demon were you spawned? You're the one who has their own f-ing agenda. You have totally dominated this topic and have horribly insulted anyone who's offered their opinion. Don't you have anything better to do? Thanks for showing your ass. For Diane: I apologize for how your topic has been directed away from its original purpose. I don't regret what I told you previously, and I hope you'll keep it in the back of your mind as you make your OWN career decisions. Jul 05 05 09:47 pm Link Marcus, I and many millions read (I repeat read) about WMDs being around in a certain country. They weren't. Reading facts don't make them facts.
I am not attacking any model or questioning anybody's professional credentials. I am simply saying that not all released pocket books can be riveting blockbusters (even if it says so on the cover). Many here will never be models or photographers (in spite of the written credentials). Many are dreamers and they should be allowed to dream. I am sure that you could spend hours criticizing what's wrong with my photos (so I am not going to ask). We could spend many years criticizing the majority of the pictures in MM. We are here for fun. Or is this MM really for getting business? Jul 05 05 09:51 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
That statement flies in the face of what a critique is.
Jul 05 05 09:52 pm Link UK Tony said:
"Xtreme, how could you!!! Be so brutally honest, that is. Diane, I think you are just right, but it does look like Xtreme knows what he is talking about, if you have a look at Xtreme's port you will see a stunning tit shot, I think you get one like this done before you drop 20Kg" I would be terribly offended if I were a woman to read that "tit shot" comment and I am offended anyway even though I am a man. As for the definition of critique I may add that one very good definition of a gentleman is one who never replies to a woman's, "Guess how old I am." The better part of valor.... Jul 05 05 09:59 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
You need a sense of humor if you are offended by the breast comment. You also need a pair of reading glasses if you are trying to accuse me of making it.
Jul 05 05 10:02 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
What the heck are you talking about?? I suggest you read a model's profile and you come back with something about weapons of mass destruction? What's in the water up there?
Jul 05 05 10:05 pm Link I am not sexist. I respect women. Diane is 19. My granddaugther is 7. If someone ever tells her what you told Diane (and I am alive) they would be forced to apologize. If you are supposed to be a sensitivie musician and appreciates the arts then get down from your high horse and tell Diane you didn't mean to be so brutal.
If we were as brutal as you were to her to Diane to most of the photographers here they would choke on their memory cards. Jul 05 05 10:07 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
Saying there are WMDs doesn't make it so, just as saying the following is brutal doesn't make it so:
I'm sure a photographer with 30 years experience would know what I said was correct.
Jul 05 05 10:10 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
I think that, someplace in this is something relevant, but I just can't find it. Must be I'm retarded or something, but I'm having trouble finding what pocket books have to do with modeling. Or are you talking about pocket books and Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Many are dreamers and they should be allowed to dream. We're talking about a young lady whose profile says she's serious about modelling, and who's been serious enough about modelling that she went to Barbizon, etc. Now what does dreaming and dreamers and pocket books have to do with whether or not someone who wants to become a professional can ask for advice without getting a bunch of political esoterica shoved in her face?
We are here for fun. Or is this MM really for getting business? Apparently you're here for fun. You appear to enjoy playing head-games and are just looking for a fun argument to weigh in on. You're quite the master debater, that's for sure.
Jul 05 05 10:15 pm Link This is my last post in this thread. The comment on brutal was written by Tony and not by me.
Diane even if these men do not apologize to you I will since I, too am a man. It would seem that Southern gentility and manners might creep up to Canada but Florida is just too far South. Jul 05 05 10:19 pm Link Posted by alexwh:
You should apologize for implying that her modeling is just a dream that she will never reach.
Jul 05 05 10:21 pm Link Posted by Marcus J. Ranum:
Posted by alexwh:
I think that, someplace in this is something relevant, but I just can't find it. Must be I'm retarded or something, but I'm having trouble finding what pocket books have to do with modeling. Or are you talking about pocket books and Weapons of Mass Destruction? He is comparing Diane to a pocket book that will never be a blockbuster.
Jul 05 05 10:29 pm Link Posted by Moonsbreath:
You're not pushing me around. You were interrupting me and Xtreme trying to give an aspiring model some advice by interjecting with your personal issues and agenda. You were trying to push me around, maybe, and you lost your temper when I slapped you down for it.
I will concede to you this: As long as photographers like you propagate these standards (and for some they ARE impossible), this battle will ensue. Are you saying it'd be impossible for Diane to lose a couple of pounds? Doesn't look like it to me. Or are you saying it'd be impossible for you to lose a couple of pounds? Judging from how passionate you are about this issue (and the fact that Diane is obviously in pretty darned good shape right now) I'm guessing the latter. So you're really talking about yourself, aren't you? You're attacking me because of something I said to someone else, because of how it made you feel about yourself.
From what demon were you spawned? You're the one who has their own f-ing agenda. You have totally dominated this topic and have horribly insulted anyone who's offered their opinion. Oh, excuse me? You're the one who called me Neanderthal and got the name-calling ball rolling. You're the one who started with the horrible insults. You made me cry, when I read that the first time. I may be traumatized for life. I may be so traumatized that any time anyone posts a thread in which someone even implies someone isn't human(*) I'll go jumping in and sidetrack it with my own emotional baggage.
Jul 05 05 10:49 pm Link Not only is he a psychologist, he's a psychic, too. Yeah, Marcus, you got me. I'm 4'6", 300 lbs...this is all about me (MM Model# 15444).
I wasn't attempting to be rude; I was stating my opinion, just as you have throughout the thread. You, however, make it a point to be offensive to anyone who contradicts you. That is NOT clean debate. Did you "slap me down"? Gee, I guess I missed that. Didn't feel a thing. I'm leaving this topic as it has totally gone off-course--partly my fault, partly yours. But I'll be sure to watch for more of your opinion in other threads. Jul 06 05 07:25 am Link Posted by Moonsbreath:
Partly? That's cute.
partly yours. I'm not falling for that one. The old "you share the blame but I'm leaving this thread *waah* *waah* I can't HEAR you because I have my fingers stuck in my ears" routine. Grow up a little bit. If you go around attacking people, sometimes they'll defend themselves more effectively than you're used to. I guess in your little world I "share the blame" with you because I didn't just roll over on my back and try to pacify you when you launched into me and Xtreme without provocation.
But I'll be sure to watch for more of your opinion in other threads. Followed by the "I am going to keep an eye on you and see if I can slam you in other threads as a way of getting childish revenge."
Jul 06 05 07:38 am Link Diane I love your avatar and the 1st picture in the 3th row. I think you have really gorgeous eyes and a beautiful figure. I think it would be great to see more varied expressions in your portfolio.
As for the rest of the madness in this thread, I think it is a little odd to freak out about patriarchy and how men are destroying the female image, when for the most part the WOMEN are the ones who uphold these ridiculous standards for themselves. Likewise, men tend to holding the standards for themselves as well. There was a very interesting study I read in women were asked how much they would like to weigh and how much they believed the *other* gender thought they should weigh to be ideally attractive. Men were asked the same question. As it turned out, what women thought they should weigh was significantly lower than what men thought they should weigh, which turned out to be very close to the average weight. Similarly, men thought that women wanted them to be much larger (and by larger I mean more bulked up and muscular), when the numbers women were putting in were of average size. So while we can gripe and gripe about what the other sex wants, realistically what we should be griping about is what the media *makes us believe* the other sex wants. The big issue here though is most of us here (including myself) have already entered or are seeking to enter this media that creates this problem. The hard part is reconciling what we actually believe with what the industry wants. Jul 06 05 06:42 pm Link What I took from the other side of the camera is that there is something for everyone in the modeling industry. Sexy and beautiful is a personal take. Is this woman right for Cosmo? No. Is she right for a host of other venues? Yes.
Beauty is what people percieve it is. Personally, I dig short stocky musclely guys with cute smiles and reading glasses. :-) And before someone tells me that these kinds of men don't find work, pick up a mag, flip through it, concentrate on commercial photography, and then tell me you don't see these types. Peace! Jul 06 05 06:55 pm Link Posted by Cindy Crabb:
From what I see, the most work for males is as lifestyle models. This is why they tend to be more popular in their 40s. Jul 06 05 10:25 pm Link Ugh. I really was hoping to be done with this thread. One last thing since this has been turned into a male vs female perspective.
Pick up a magazine for men such as maxim and compare it to a magazine for women such as vogue. What's the different between the girls? about 20 to 30 lbs at the very least. I won't begin to place blame on who put the bar where it is. The fact though is that most men I know prefer a full figured voluptous woman with a body, not a stick figure that reminds of your sickly younger brother in drag. Granted the pop look of today tends toward skinny girls with implants so that you have the 'best' of both worlds. The fashion look bugs me just as much. Mousey bland girls who are chosen to be so ugly and plain as to be pretty. It just doesn't do it. If you have to follow these trends, then I love the varied and healthy models of the 90's and the models of the 60's that knew how to take it to an extreme. Jul 06 05 11:26 pm Link |