TheMakeupman wrote:
if you pm me I'll tell you my rates

I did post my rates specificly before when this question came up
I'd do a better post but I just got off set and had 30 backround to do in 2 hours with one other makeup artist and Im poop!

Thank you for not running away from the question lol
I just sent you a message!!

Any one else? Sharing is Caring

I think MUA's and there hard work would be more respected if we didn't undercut ourselves and other artists. Lets get the rates out there so we are all paid fairly.

TheMakeupman wrote:
I personally would love to see what rates are around the country / world

Here, here! We can talk about everything here, but when money comes into play, everyone gets all polite and doesn't want to talk about it. No one wants to price themselves out of their market, and no one wants to undercut and be known as a budget artist. So we look to those who have been at this longer to help us out with this. After all, we do want to make money...
NYC, Anyone?

MakeupMaven - JustB wrote:
Thanks Makeupman...this is really helpful. Many times people don't want to give you an actual $$$ amount.

To a point I understand why BUT if we all want to ban against people trying to get over on us then we should share. We know in this business that if we quote a rate they think is "to high" (which usually never is) they know they can call up another MUA who will do it for cheaper. I know there are different levels of expertise that play into each individuals rate but if most MUA at the same level all charged the same amount (or close to it) if the client wanted to be cheap and not pay what they are worth they would have the option to pay less BUT for some one less experienced NOT for a MUA on the same level who it unaware of standard rates and mistakingly is willing to take the lower rate.

Angela Horvath wrote:

To a point I understand why BUT if we all want to ban against people trying to get over on us then we should share. We know in this business that if we quote a rate they think is "to high" (which usually never is) they know they can call up another MUA who will do it for cheaper. I know there are different levels of expertise that play into each individuals rate but if most MUA at the same level all charged the same amount (or close to it) if the client wanted to be cheap and not pay what they are worth they would have the option to pay less BUT for some one less experienced NOT for a MUA on the same level who it unaware of standard rates and mistakingly is willing to take the lower rate.

ITA...I also understand why. But with all of the talk and bashing of budget artists that undercut the industry I think some of them just don't know any better. (Some do and they don't care, but I don't want to be that type of artist.)

I see two sides to this issue. There are artists that are on the same level and they don't want their competition knowing what they charge. I get it, but there is also another side to this - if artists at the same level of experience charge similar prices you have another dynamic. It can become about the work and the artistry instead of price being the #1 factor. It's like what you said if they want a certain level of experience then they will have to pay within this budget range. If they want to get cheap about it then they are going to have to look for newer/lesser (and I don't mean it the way that it sounds, but I know I am not at the same level as Liz Yu, Makeupman, EmElle, Mary, etc.) artists.

TheMakeupman wrote:
another thing I wanted to mention is DO Charge more than you think your worth
Most of us (Artist) in general are so critical of ourselves and work , we do tend to undercharge

Add  ohhh lets say 100 more than you normally would

once you start making that larger rate , you might find that you were the only one who didn't think you were worth more.

When I was newer and tried this and they didn't bat a lash I was so tickled

Don't wait for them to tell you what your worth

ITA...but like another artist said, half these people know they can get someone to do it for dirt cheap. It sucks to sit here starving on principle! Make other artists STOP IT! *stomping feet*

TheMakeupman wrote:
I hope this helps

I do love and appreciate your openness.  Call me a dork, but I do believe sharing is caring, and when people are open and candid, I am always so touched...thank you beauty

Rachel Lisa wrote:
This may be a slight detour, but on the same topic of pay...

I had been contacted by another MUA to work a fashion show for no pay. When I looked at her profile, it said NO TFP, EVER! So I emailed her back saying I thought it was interesting that she wanted me to work for free, when she clearly states that she doesn't. She mailed me back, saying "THIS IS NOT TFP IT IS A FASHION SHOW...AND JUST SO YOU KNOW, MAKEUP ARTISTS NEVER GET PAID FOR FASHION SHOWS".  I told her this was the kind of attitude that degrades our work and gives people the impression we don't need to be paid, and she should stop working them for free, and x,y, and z had never had a problem paying me for shows. The ONLY time I worked for free was on a show for charity, where no one got paid, and I thought it was a great cause.

I don't mean to detour either, but is it true Rach?  That fashion shows don't pay?  =/  my bubble's deflating...

Rachel Lisa wrote:
This may be a slight detour, but on the same topic of pay...

I had been contacted by another MUA to work a fashion show for no pay. When I looked at her profile, it said NO TFP, EVER! So I emailed her back saying I thought it was interesting that she wanted me to work for free, when she clearly states that she doesn't. She mailed me back, saying "THIS IS NOT TFP IT IS A FASHION SHOW...AND JUST SO YOU KNOW, MAKEUP ARTISTS NEVER GET PAID FOR FASHION SHOWS".  I told her this was the kind of attitude that degrades our work and gives people the impression we don't need to be paid, and she should stop working them for free, and x,y, and z had never had a problem paying me for shows. The ONLY time I worked for free was on a show for charity, where no one got paid, and I thought it was a great cause.

Amen to that!!! I think you were right with the way you handled that. The more we put our foot down and demand to be paid for our work the more it will happen. This is the only industry where people think you can be paid in the form of "experience" or "credit" (which should be given anyway, as you are the one who did the work. It is not a reward or something that is earned, its something that comes with the territory. You do the work you get credit for it!!!) You wouldn't walk into any retail store or business fill out an application and get hired then have them tell you the first few days you will  not be paid BUT you will gain value experience bagging groceries or folding clothes etc.. its crazy!!!

MakeupMaven - JustB wrote:
ITA...I also understand why. But with all of the talk and bashing of budget artists that undercut the industry I think some of them just don't know any better. (Some do and they don't care, but I don't want to be that type of artist.)

I agree that some don't know and thats why I think MUA should be more willing to share information so that were all on the same page

After all thats said... Lets see some rates!!! lol

Angela Renee wrote:

I don't mean to detour either, but is it true Rach?  That fashion shows don't pay?  =/  my bubble's deflating...

No, sweetie, it's not true. Unless whoever is coordinating the show knows they can take advantage of our work and hire certain MUAs for free.

martinimages wrote:
And keep in mind...this is for established pros with lots of experience.  On your way up...you take what you get, just choose your jobs well and you'll move up soon enough.  And I always try to adjust rates equally for everyone based on the overall budget.  So sometimes I offer less...and if I have a relationship with them, and  they have no better offers for the dates... they take it.   The seeing the big picture thing.

Bit of a ramble..but that's how it is for me.  Hope that helps.

B

I think the reason why many feel award posting there rates is because they may be no where near $800-$2,000 and up. Although I am thankful that every one posted there rates and/or agreed with some one else because it lets the makeup artists (I for one) who are not yet at that level see what they have to look forward to. I would love to hear from MUA who are on a different tier. Its ok to say I only have 3 years experience (vs. 7 and up) and I charge $300-?? I think we would love to see MUA on all tiers not just ones that are experienced enough to command over a grand, we all start some where right?

Not Not Good wrote:
i've worked on commercial jobs where good but unsigned makeup artists charged $300-500 a day.

depends on job.

why would a good artist work for that?

I don't know anyone thats good that would work for that, it could be that our definitions of good differ...

Talented and good as an employed artist are 2 different things....  Some very talented people don't work often or get the good jobs because they are hard to work with, or maybe not dependable, there are many reasons someone may not be bringing in the proper rates

Mary wrote:
why would a good artist work for that?

Oh oh.. here is where the judging comes into play which in turn makes fellow artists run from forums like this and now I understand why.

You have to start some where. You have to take decent paying jobs while you network and meet the right people with the connections and/or budget to pay you what you know your worth.

I thank everyone who gave an honest answer, it is much appreciated however I personally will have to refrain from continuing this discussion because I don't want this to go in a direction I hadn't planned on it going in.

Angela Horvath wrote:
Oh oh.. here is where the judging comes into play which in turn makes fellow artists run from forums like this and now I understand why.

You have to start some where. You have to take decent paying jobs while you network and meet the right people with the connections and/or budget to pay you what you know your worth.

I thank everyone who gave an honest answer, it is much appreciated however I personally will have to refrain from continuing this discussion because I don't want this to go in a direction I hadn't planned on it going in.

I appreciate that everyone has to start somewhere....  and I'm not judging....I'm being honest here....  I think it's a very bad idea to go onto a job and charge less than going rate....If an artist can't get going rate they should in  my opinion be assisting. 

Its bad for the artists career and it's bad for the industry

Under-charging will put you on the "outs" with the people that matter to your career...you won't hear that directly, thats why I'm saying it here... it's the truth....  when I refer good jobs they are always to people that charge what I do or more and thats how its been for years...  when I refer what I consider crappy jobs out, its to the artists I know as budget artists...do you see how that puts you in a vicious cycle?


as for people being afraid to post...  They need to get over that real quick because this isn't an industry for the timid.  There are a lot of reasons not to get wrapped into these discussions but fear isn't a good one.... you should never be afraid when you believe you have a valid view point..  I have never seen a real industry pro run from a valid honest discussion about the business.


ALSO, you said you didnt like the "beating around the bush" and that you wanted straight answers...that's what I gave you but you need to know the reasons why the numbers are what they are...it dosent do anyone all that much good just to know the numbers

Mary wrote:
I think it's a very bad idea to go onto a job and charge less than going rate....If an artist can't get going rate they should in  my opinion be assisting.

I appreciate your "non" beating around the bush you had very valid points!

In regards to your above comment. Not speaking of big budget campaigns, commercials etc.. There are tons of lower budget projects that have $300 or so for one makeup artist and not an assistant. Do you think the artist should turn it down as its not paying $800. They don't have connections to assist a makeup artist making $1,000 so that there assist rate could be $300 - $500 - ?? . What do you suggest they do??

Would love to know your view on things as it sounds like you have experience in this whole fiasco of rates

I also agree that you need a thick skin in this business.

Angela Horvath wrote:
I appreciate your "non" beating around the bush you had very valid points!

In regards to your above comment. Not speaking of big budget campaigns, commercials etc.. There are tons of lower budget projects that have $300 or so for one makeup artist and not an assistant. Do you think the artist should turn it down as its not paying $800. They don't have connections to assist a makeup artist making $1,000 so that there assist rate could be $300 - $500 - ?? . What do you suggest they do??

Would love to know your view on things as it sounds like you have experience in this whole fiasco of rates

I also agree that you need a thick skin in this business.

I understand what you are saying, and there is a fine line in the industry....bigginers need experience and they need to make some money

  I assumed you were referring to average commercial industry rates when you asked the question originally.   I was under the assumption (I may have been mistaken) that you were asking about career artists working commercial jobs, I thought you were trying to get and average and makeupman was right on the money for LA area. 

I made a comment about not seeing artists work for 300-500 a day and again....I have not seen a career artist with a good reputation work for this on a commercial job...  on model portfolio shoots maybe, on editorial for sure but not on commercial jobs.




You had said  .....................................................



"I think MUA's and there hard work would be more respected if we didn't undercut ourselves and other artists. Lets get the rates out there so we are all paid fairly."   

I think we are on the same page here...

Mary wrote:
I appreciate that everyone has to start somewhere....  and I'm not judging....I'm being honest here....  I think it's a very bad idea to go onto a job and charge less than going rate....If an artist can't get going rate they should in  my opinion be assisting. 

Its bad for the artists career and it's bad for the industry

Under-charging will put you on the "outs" with the people that matter to your career...you won't hear that directly, thats why I'm saying it here... it's the truth....  when I refer good jobs they are always to people that charge what I do or more and thats how its been for years...  when I refer what I consider crappy jobs out, its to the artists I know as budget artists...do you see how that puts you in a vicious cycle?


as for people being afraid to post...  They need to get over that real quick because this isn't an industry for the timid.  There are a lot of reasons not to get wrapped into these discussions but fear isn't a good one.... you should never be afraid when you believe you have a valid view point..  I have never seen a real industry pro run from a valid honest discussion about the business.


ALSO, you said you didnt like the "beating around the bush" and that you wanted straight answers...that's what I gave you but you need to know the reasons why the numbers are what they are...it dosent do anyone all that much good just to know the numbers

Mary is totally right

If I knew someone was intentionally undercharging
I would NEVER EVER hire them , and belive me word gets around really fast !
And Once you make a bad name for yourself    budget artist, undercutting piece of , shoomzer ............... it's really hard to undo


If I refeer out a crappy job.......
ohhhh wait     I don't referr out crappy jobs , my friends and collegues would only be referred jobs I would do myself

And in alot of ways I have to agree if you are not ready to charge going rates , assist or ............do what I did , and hire better / more experienced people to work with you.
It will make you look better and we know how to take a back seat to make you shine!

Mary wrote:

why would a good artist work for that?

I don't know anyone thats good that would work for that, it could be that our definitions of good differ...

Talented and good as an employed artist are 2 different things....  Some very talented people don't work often or get the good jobs because they are hard to work with, or maybe not dependable, there are many reasons someone may not be bringing in the proper rates

Cause the economy sucks. I bid a job for $675 for a full day lookbook. that included me and my assistant. We would need to shoot 100 outfits in 6 hours, 4 shots of each outfit AND editorial shots to complement the book.

I was told "at the moment $675, while low is still out of range as we were able to find others do it lower."

Sheesh, that should be bid at a few thousand, not a few hundred and still it is too high for this market.

That is the problem in LA, many times people are just looking for the lowest bidder and if you haven't worked yet that week sometimes you just have to lower your rates so that you can put gas in your car.

Rachel Lisa wrote:
This may be a slight detour, but on the same topic of pay...

I had been contacted by another MUA to work a fashion show for no pay. When I looked at her profile, it said NO TFP, EVER! So I emailed her back saying I thought it was interesting that she wanted me to work for free, when she clearly states that she doesn't. She mailed me back, saying "THIS IS NOT TFP IT IS A FASHION SHOW...AND JUST SO YOU KNOW, MAKEUP ARTISTS NEVER GET PAID FOR FASHION SHOWS".  I told her this was the kind of attitude that degrades our work and gives people the impression we don't need to be paid, and she should stop working them for free, and x,y, and z had never had a problem paying me for shows. The ONLY time I worked for free was on a show for charity, where no one got paid, and I thought it was a great cause.

btw- happy 1,000th post!

Star wrote:
Cause the economy sucks. I bid a job for $675 for a full day lookbook. that included me and my assistant. We would need to shoot 100 outfits in 6 hours, 4 shots of each outfit AND editorial shots to complement the book.

I was told "at the moment $675, while low is still out of range as we were able to find others do it lower."

Sheesh, that should be bid at a few thousand, not a few hundred and still it is too high for this market.

That is the problem in LA, many times people are just looking for the lowest bidder and if you haven't worked yet that week sometimes you just have to lower your rates so that you can put gas in your car.

I understand this... the economy has been hard on many people  but you have to draw the line...  Early in my career I discussed this subject with a very wise photographer times were hard then as well....Housing prices took a dive and people were walking away then...

His comments put my career on a much better path....he said "notice next time you fly.... even in a bad economy first class is always full"  

These words have stuck with me and he is 100% correct..

Mary wrote:

I understand this... the economy has been hard on many people  but you have to draw the line...  Early in my career I discussed this subject with a very wise photographer times were hard then as well....Housing prices took a dive and people were walking away then...

His comments put my career on a much better path....he said "notice next time you fly.... even in a bad economy first class is always full"  

These words have stuck with me and he is 100% correct..

yes, and if i could I would stick by them too. Unfortunately I am pricing my wardrobe right now to sell on Model mayhem do to the fact that I have no money

Star wrote:

yes, and if i could I would stick by them too. Unfortunately I am pricing my wardrobe right now to sell on Model mayhem do to the fact that I have no money

I'm sorry that sucks...  Please keep in mind that the money that was there a few years ago is still there.....it's just not in the possession of the same people...  I have honestly only had a handful of clients ask me to cut my rates recently and eventually they came around to my rates....one after a fisaco with a budget artist and budget team, this is what happens a lot of times when the photographer bids a job too low...he or she has a disaster shoot and pays for it by losing the client... You can't have a green team, non agency models and a ridiculous shoot schedule turn out great shots....in the end the photographer takes the blame for the failed shoot...

True story.....   In the last 2 months I have overbid 2 jobs that I used to do (I should say others bid half my rate)....they did hire budget teams....low ball photographers, artists etc... 

the news got back to me on both jobs that they were a complete disaster...of course they were, that's how it always turns out.  I will be doing a shoot next week that will be a reshoot on one of these jobs (at my full rate) they have to bring the good team back, including the better photographer and reshoot the entire job...I believe one of the decision makers has been canned and I assume the photographer took some blame and won't be hired again...  NOBODY on that team will get hired back because the team as a whole looked bad....  I refuse to be on any team that I know is going down....that minimizes my chances of every working with that client again and word gets around on failed shoots about who was part of that team.

You cant hire a team to work for peanuts, work them long hours, give them off the street models and expect good results, I've never seen good shots in a situation like this.

Mary wrote:

I'm sorry that sucks...  Please keep in mind that the money that was there a few years ago is still there.....it's just not in the possession of the same people...  I have honestly only had a handful of clients ask me to cut my rates recently and eventually they came around to my rates....one after a fisaco with a budget artist and budget team, this is what happens a lot of times when the photographer bids a job too low...he or she has a disaster shoot and pays for it by losing the client... You can't have a green team, non agency models and a ridiculous shoot schedule turn out great shots....in the end the photographer takes the blame for the failed shoot...

True story.....   In the last 2 months I have overbid 2 jobs that I used to do (I should say others bid half my rate)....they did hire budget teams....low ball photographers, artists etc... 

the news got back to me on both jobs that they were a complete disaster...of course they were, that's how it always turns out.  I will be doing a shoot next week that will be a reshoot on one of these jobs (at my full rate) they have to bring the good team back, including the better photographer and reshoot the entire job...I believe one of the decision makers has been canned and I assume the photographer took some blame and won't be hired again...  NOBODY on that team will get hired back because the team as a whole looked bad....  I refuse to be on any team that I know is going down....that minimizes my chances of every working with that client again and word gets around on failed shoots about who was part of that team.

You cant hire a team to work for peanuts, work them long hours, give them off the street models and expect good results, I've never seen good shots in a situation like this.

I do want to mention that I don't ever include any team members when I quote these types of rates. The shoot would have paid me $500, and my assistant $175, (which since he is still in school this is a decent rate on a job like this)

They would need to hire their own make-up and hair team, or chose one of the ones from my packet, whose rates start at around $400

Star

TheMakeupman wrote:
If I knew someone was intentionally undercharging
I would NEVER EVER hire them , and belive me word gets around really fast !

That is what I don't understand, every one keeps mentioning "if an artist was intentionally undercharging"... Are there artists that actually do that? What is the reasoning behind it? The only thing I can think of is they think if they charge less than everyone else they will get the job and something is better than nothing. Is that correct??

Mary wrote:
Please keep in mind that the money that was there a few years ago is still there.....it's just not in the possession of the same people...

That is soooo true!!

Mary wrote:
budget artist and budget team,
the news got back to me on both jobs that they were a complete disaster...of course they were, that's how it always turns out.

Do you think maybe some of the artists that you are referring to as "budget artists" can be really good (like others) but do not have the right connections to charge that much??

Which is disappointing because thats why people try to pay other artists less because they know that there are others that are just as good but will charge less because they have not gotten to the point where they can charge $2,000 because they don't have the connections.

How much you charge does not necessarily stand for how good you are. There are tons of artists who charge a lot because in there head they think they are amazing and worth it when in reality...

Do you think maybe some of the artists that you are referring to as "budget artists" can be really good (like others) but do not have the right connections to charge that much??

Which is disappointing because thats why people try to pay other artists less because they know that there are others that are just as good but will charge less because they have not gotten to the point where they can charge $2,000 because they don't have the connections.

I assume there are a few out there that are good and charging too little but then why don't they have connections?  maybe because they are new to the business?...if they were not new and they were good and had been around awhile they would have connections and wouldn't need to be budget artists...

If they are newer, they may be very good but their experience on set isn't there, and this is 80% of whats important on the job.  What I am getting at is that cheaper artists are cheaper for a reason....either they suck, or are not dependable, maybe hard to work with   or they are fairly new and so do not have connections yet.... any of these options can be a problem on a job...   

How much you charge does not necessarily stand for how good you are. There are tons of artists who charge a lot because in there head they think they are amazing and worth it when in reality...

this is where we part ways...   All the good and experienced artists I know personally are working full time... the ones that are not working are the ones that are newer to the business (less than 3 years)   and they are not as valuable on set because they haven t been hit with all the problems yet that come up on set...  They do not have the experience dealing with clients and talent... 

I think you are discounting what experience brings to the table....with experience comes connections and if it doesn't frankly there is something wrong with the artist....  ALSO, part of being a good artist is knowing how to make a client want you  back and impress them enough to spread the word, word travels fast in this business....it would be hard NOT to have connections if people like working with you.   These connections can be made as one is assisting another artist, in fact that's the best way to secure a future in your local market...

TheMakeupman wrote:
What Mary said is all Spot on Truth !

Yep! I give credit where credit is due, and.... she brought up some very good points