indefinite anomaly wrote:
The phone is the worst form of communication for me. There's no papertrail (versus email/MM messages where you can check back on details). Also, hearing/understanding people over the phone is just not worth the effort unless I already know the person, and have figured out their mannerisms. Written text is much preferred.

If that prevents me from getting a job? Fine. We all have our preferences, I can understand. Also note that a good amount of people who insisted on dealing on the phone ended up talking my ear off, assumed I was going to flake and would talk my ear off about that as well, and usually didn't end up booking with me. (There are of course exceptions to this)

I don't see what's so hard about a few emails back and forth saying when/where to meet, what to bring, and a phone number in case of emergencies.

That's why God created pens and paper...so we can jot down what is discussed on the phone. You write an email and they don't answer a question. You have to write back and repeat it. On the phone, you can instantly repeat it. You hear inflections. You can straighten out something that made perfect sense when you said it but the other took in a totally different way. Straightening out issues only thru email can takes days going back and forth rather than clearing it up in a few minutes.

The people who talked your ear off was just them not using proper etiquette. It's not the fault of the phone. People don't follow proper etiquette online either. Some don't even bother using punctuation. Not even periods.

rdallasPhotography wrote:
That's why God created pens and paper...so we can jot down what is discussed on the phone. You write an email and they don't answer a question. You have to write back and repeat it.

If the model doesn't reply or claims she lost the message, it's quite easy to resend it.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Any precautions I may or may not take do not excuse the theft of my things.

So, why do you lock your door & car?  Wouldn't it be irresponsible to leave your car unlocked and with the keys in the ignition when you park it in a high crime area?

Three points:
...  I am not willing to assume that it is "the other guy's fault" without hearing both
     sides of the story.  Sometimes, the photographer is at fault when a model
     doesn't show up.

...  I don't care who is at fault.  The model didn't show up, and crying on these forums
     seems to accomplish nothing.

...  In my book, people who refuse to take precautions, hoping for a world filled with
     butterflies, unicorns, & rainbows, will be frequently disappointed.  That's their
     choice, but eventually, the smart ones will realize that if flakes bother them, they
     should figure out how to avoid them.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
So, why do you lock your door

indefinite anomaly wrote:
The phone is the worst form of communication for me. There's no papertrail (versus email/MM messages where you can check back on details). Also, hearing/understanding people over the phone is just not worth the effort unless I already know the person, and have figured out their mannerisms. Written text is much preferred.

...

I don't see what's so hard about a few emails back and forth saying when/where to meet, what to bring, and a phone number in case of emergencies.

rdallasPhotography wrote:
That's why God created pens and paper...so we can jot down what is discussed on the phone. You write an email and they don't answer a question. You have to write back and repeat it. On the phone, you can instantly repeat it. You hear inflections. You can straighten out something that made perfect sense when you said it but the other took in a totally different way. Straightening out issues only thru email can takes days going back and forth rather than clearing it up in a few minutes.

I'm beginning to think that this is beyond "preference" and "paper trail" ... this is seeming more like a genuine phobia of personal contact; a discomfort in hearing the human voice, or fear of having to look someone in the eye in a face-to-face, natural, connection.
It's about not having learned how to talk to people .... so, they communicate by hiding behind their cold, emotionless "device".

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
Alternately you could just check references...

I don't agree to something I can't/won't do. Simple as. Why would I even have a profile on here and bother updating it if I wasn't serious about what I do?

I don't see how talking on the phone makes someone less of a flake. Some people genuinely find it awkward and would rather speak face to face, some people don't have the time to talk to a stranger on the phone.

Agree. Some photographers also pressure me to call right away or skype with no make up on. Why can't you wait a day? I'm a busy girl. And why does it matter what I look like without makeup? It's not like that's how you'll be photographing me unless discussed otherwise.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I've had 2 flakes in ~18 years, and in both cases, these models had posed for me before.  I don't require a pre-meeting, a phone call, or any of that stuff.

My method?  I check references.

+1,000

Shutterbug5269 wrote:
For me, the warning bells go off when the model in question inexplicably disappears off of the face of the planet.  (especially when there has been a lot of back and forth communication leading up to the shoot date)

That is almost a 99% indicator unless that person is traveling and crappy weather sets in. Unless you didn't know they were e-mailing you while on holidays and then the weather flooded everything cutting power and communications, I say it's a safe bet that no contact suddenly mean spidey senses begin tingling at the flakiness of the situation.

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
Alternately you could just check references...

I don't agree to something I can't/won't do. Simple as. Why would I even have a profile on here and bother updating it if I wasn't serious about what I do?

I don't see how talking on the phone makes someone less of a flake. Some people genuinely find it awkward and would rather speak face to face, some people don't have the time to talk to a stranger on the phone.

This is getting weirder and weirder.
Have you ever gone on a job interview? Was the interview conducted by text?
If you don't have the time to "talk to a stranger on the phone", then you have no time to model.

About being serious, you're just rationalizing some lame excuse why you don't NEED to phone.
If the photographer wants to talk to you, what's the harm? This whining "I don't have time" is ridiculous.
Having a profile and updating pictures is no indication whatsoever of your reliability and professionalism.
You don't have to understand why the shoot manager and director (that's what a photographer is) might insist  you doing something reasonable, you just do it ... or flake.

I must say, all this stuff, this whining why you don't have time to call or meet, why texting is better, that the photographer is "a stranger", and you don't like talking to strangers.
It's bizarre and very childish, if you want to know, it all points to someone who either WILL, or IS, a flake -- and is a consummate amateur, having adolescent temper tantrums.

The photographer is responsible for every detail of the shoot, and the ultimate outcome of the shoot rests completely on the photographers shoulders.

So, do you think you could help out -- just a little bit?

NC Art Photos wrote:

use a payphone.  Or find a friend with a phone that does work.  If all it takes to get the gig is to make a call - surely you must know someone who has a phone you could use?

And if they dont have a phone , get a cell based one from SKPE or GOOGLE VOICE !

AltaImages  wrote:
And if they dont have a phone , get a cell based one from SKPE or GOOGLE VOICE !

Yes. In other words, the "I don't have a phone" is a lame, childish, excuse. A professional will GET a phone somewhere to make a call. The excuse about phones and pay-phones is essentially no different than saying "My dog ate it."

If you want to be a professional anything, you have to grow up -- at least a little.

Shutterbug5269 wrote:
For me, the warning bells go off when the model in question inexplicably disappears off of the face of the planet.  (especially when there has been a lot of back and forth communication leading up to the shoot date)

If communications dry up suddenly (and there are details not yet finalized) AND you see the model is still logging into MM, then the flake probability is high.

On the whole Text vs. Phone vs. eMail thing, I agree there are generational preferences. The bottom line is communications should be clear enough to build up a mutual level of some trust. If that can be done with text or email, great. You can gauge a whole lot more about a person with a phone call than you can with a text, though.

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
Alternately you could just check references...

References are samples of photographers the model actually showed up for and worked with.  Few models will have references that they flaked on, so this is a very poor sampling method for determining how many they flaked on compared to those they showed up for.  (Obviously, if a model flaked, she won't have credited photos in her portfolio from that shoot either)

Though not ideal, it does make sense that a model who is less committed will be more hesitant to give out her phone number than one who is not committed.  It's fairly standard for private contractors to provide a contact phone number, and I'd be unlikely to work with any contractor who does not, not only because they are more likely to no-show, but because it makes last minute communication more difficult.

255 West wrote:
This is getting weirder and weirder.
Have you ever gone on a job interview? Was the interview conducted by text?
If you don't have the time to "talk to a stranger on the phone", then you have no time to model.

About being serious, you're just rationalizing some lame excuse why you don't NEED to phone.
If the photographer wants to talk to you, what's the harm? This whining "I don't have time" is ridiculous.
Having a profile and updating pictures is no indication whatsoever of your reliability and professionalism.
You don't have to understand why the shoot manager and director (that's what a photographer is) might insist  you doing something reasonable, you just do it ... or flake.

I must say, all this stuff, this whining why you don't have time to call or meet, why texting is better, that the photographer is "a stranger", and you don't like talking to strangers.
It's bizarre and very childish, if you want to know, it all points to someone who either WILL, or IS, a flake -- and is a consummate amateur, having adolescent temper tantrums.

The photographer is responsible for every detail of the shoot, and the ultimate outcome of the shoot rests completely on the photographers shoulders.

So, do you think you could help out -- just a little bit?

A paid job is the only thing remotely comparable to a job interview...

Also, the photographer is actually NOT always responsible for every detail of the shoot if it's a true collaboration...Yesterday, I brought a 1930's dress I found myself, clothes borrowed from a designer, and the makeup artist brought her kit and a chair she found in an antique store. The photographer was responsible for location and edits. We all had an equal role in the outcome and success of the shoot.

I'm willing to talk on the phone under certain circumstances, otherwise I feel it is a waste of time. Many times phone interviews/meeting for coffee end up going nowhere.

Basically, I have the time, but I would rather spend it working on things for my shoots to make them better. Which IS dedication.

And helping out? I'm sorry *scratches head*

And also, when you've had to worry about being stalked/harassed via the phone, you tend to be careful about giving out your number. I've actually been considering getting a tracphone or something because of this.

Also, I do give my number out at my own discretion in case someone is running late, ect. I just don't see how it's a "flake detection method."

GingerMuse wrote:
well I prefer all of my communication to be in written form. text is fine, but personally I don't like talking on the phone and I like having a log of what was said/established so I can refer to it if. I can barely ever understand what people are saying on the phone and I have a slight (and weird) phobia of talking on phones. generally after all details are finalized, I have no problem with a quick phone convo, but I also find that a number of "photographers" just try to get me on the phone to chat and be "friends" and I don't have time for that nor am I interested. I have no problem giving a photographer my number, but I like to limit the amount of phone calls if talking on the phone is a requirement.

Before the Internet, we had no choice but to talk on the phone.   I can sense when a model is not one who enjoys talking on the phone, and I keep it short.  When it comes to writing, I am very much into using the Internet for networking as well.

I'm understanding that many (mostly younger) people today are much more comfortable with texting and messaging.   So I reserve the long conversations for those who enjoy the art of conversation.   You can always say "I gotta go!" 

Dekilah wrote:

I do not mind giving out my number after a shoot is booked. I do not mind a quick chat to verify that I will not flake. But I do not like to discuss shoot details over the phone. I have a hard time hearing over the phone and I forget things. I much prefer details be discussed via e-mail or message.

I have never flaked on a shoot. I showed up to a shoot last week with a migraine and was feeling so bad by the end that I actually got sick in my car on the way home. Thankfully, you cannot tell in the photos.

Your method may be effective in many cases, but if a model mentions she would rather discuss details via message or e-mail would you automatically assume she will flake? Or do you make exceptions?

From other similar threads, many photographers would agree to emails for details. But many, myself included want that phone call somewhere along the line. In fact for a noob, with limited references I want a meet and greet (go-see). Also there are things that can take 45 emails or 10minutes on the phone.

And from someone like you, if on the first contact you said 'I'll be there', I would not need to hear from you again, till I opened the door for you. However I would still want your cell number, and you would have mine, shit happens.

Lexxy wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only model that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite.

snip

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

Really don't think anybody has a problem with that.

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
^Hit the nail on the head. I'll give it out before the shoot in case I need to be contacted ASAP, otherwise, I typically see phone conversations or meetings as a little unneccessary...especially as I usually end up hearing about someones wife and/or the shoot never even going anywhere.

Also, photographers can be flaky. I have had so many shoots where photographers agreed to compensate me with images, but gave me none. I followed up with them and they were "still editing" but eventually it became more hassle to ask them and I just gave up in the end. Makeup artists can be flaky. Designers can.

Flaking isn't always about just showing up, and it's also not exclusive to models.

I, personally, like having a message so I can look back when packing my wardobe/makeup, ect, so I know what to bring exactly and don't have to be taking notes while on the phone to someone. So that I have the exact address and can copy/paste into Google Maps easily. Also, so many people on the phone get confused by my accent and it makes things awkward.

Freelance models who truly rely on paid work to live need to do what the client asks.   Even for TF shoots.   If providing a cell number is a concern use the MagicJack IOS or Android app
It gives users a FREE number.   Give that out.   Get a cheap pay as go phone but for goodness sake give a number you can be reached at and contact those who ask you to call.   Outside of the MM asylum models are expected to go to auditions.   Even for high level non paid tests.   I agree that everyone can be flakey but in general it tends too me models.   Reasons vary but I don't book sessions without a contact number.   Not saying you should.   What you do is working right?

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
A paid job is the only thing remotely comparable to a job interview...

Also, the photographer is actually NOT always responsible for every detail of the shoot if it's a true collaboration...Yesterday, I brought a 1930's dress I found myself, clothes borrowed from a designer, and the makeup artist brought her kit and a chair she found in an antique store. The photographer was responsible for location and edits. We all had an equal role in the outcome and success of the shoot.

I'm willing to talk on the phone under certain circumstances, otherwise I feel it is a waste of time. Many times phone interviews/meeting for coffee end up going nowhere.

Basically, I have the time, but I would rather spend it working on things for my shoots to make them better. Which IS dedication.

And helping out? I'm sorry *scratches head*

And also, when you've had to worry about being stalked/harassed via the phone, you tend to be careful about giving out your number. I've actually been considering getting a tracphone or something because of this.

Also, I do give my number out at my own discretion in case someone is running late, ect. I just don't see how it's a "flake detection method."

Meeting in person?  Yes, it IS like a job interview.  For example, no couple has ever hired me to shoot their wedding without first at least meeting me in person.  I have also met in person for volunteer work.  Models might not look at TFP as a "job" or gig, but that might have something to do with their attitude.

Yes, in a true collaboration, the model and photographer will often times brainstorm and run with mutual ideas.  Using a mix of methods of communication means more ground is covered more thoroughly.  Certainly we all have our preferences, but to use a combination of messaging with email, texting, phone calls, and even meeting in person, I will find out far more about a person than from just messages online.  We don't have to talk or meet in person, but it does not hurt.  To fully have a collaboration, the use of various forms of communication might be best!   

Did you consider that time is not wasted if someone decides after meeting with you to not go with you on a project.   Just because phone interviews or meeting someone in person didn't end up "going anywhere" does not mean it was not worth the time.  In the old days when models had to physically go to casting calls in person, many went home without a job. 

So you have the time?  That's all fine and dandy, but I don't actually get to see that you are working on "things" to make shoots better.  Sure, you can send a cell shot of a dress, or text me when you will be done with a prop, but a phone call is actually faster.  What collaboration is there if you don't communicate it to the photographer?  If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear, does it make a sound?

I'm not sure what he means by "helping out" either.

Your privacy is more likely to be invaded through the Internet than via phone nowadays.  If you use your phone to post on Facebook, then for sure you are opening yourself up to being tracked.  Being stalked is not cool by any method.

I can tell a great deal more about a person through speaking with them over a phone, and I can gather even more from an in person interview.  It does not take long.  I'm very good at being able to read people that way, where as I'm not able to do so as well from what they write in messages.  Call me old fashion, but I am a master at what is becoming a lost "art of conversation" which also means I can tell if someone does not like to carry on a phone conversation.  Most of my phone calls last 5 minutes on average, while others might last longer. 

My methods posted above have worked great for me because I have a very small number of "flakes!"   I'm amazed at all the complainers on this site, as I have had something like 4 or 5 models out of 100 that have flaked on me over a 20 year period.   I'm happy! 

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
A LOT of models don't do phone calls doesn't mean they will flake

For sure!  A phone conversation does not mean that they will show either ... or that I'll even book them.   A phone conversation is just one more tool for communication.  It should not be avoided, but it should not be the only form of communication either.