Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
I don't feel I'm qualified to speak about the legalities of the situation. However, I will say that if she's a good enough model and you two get along well I wouldn't burn the bridge. It's not everyday that you find a business partner that you get along with *really* well, and from what you wrote it seems like you two have a good working relationship. This can potentially benefit you more in the future than posting the photo in question will right now.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
first off, I don't shoot anywhere remotely near the edge of a model's limits (and for the most part shoot with models without limits regarding nudity....)
That being said I am happy to review the images with the model right on the back of the camera to make sure we did not capture something she is uncomfortable with....
if she asked me to take down an image for which she was not compensated or which did not reflect the same content already in one of her online portfolios I would do so....
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
If the image complies with what was agreed upon prior to the shoot, I'm not taking it down - it would be ridiculous to assume or hope I would.
However, having said that, I'm pretty clear on the level of exposure in written communication leading to the booking.
If the agreement is say an open jacket, but no nipples exposed, then pictures with nipples aren't going to be posted anywhere - models can depend upon my word being what I do. If I didn't it would become pretty hard to do editorial fashion work without that level of trust.
However, about a year and 1/2 ago, I had that agreement above with a model - and it so happened that there turned out to be an absolute killer shot, where one breast was completely exposed. Now I had a full release permitting me to do anything I wanted with it technically - but I honored my agreement with her. After showing her the shot, she said that she was ok if I used it on my website or actual portfolio if I wished, just not on sites like MM. That was a good compromise. In the end I didn't use it. But she was great about it.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
You own the image. You can, legally, do whatever you want with it. If you WANT to be nice and not use it, you can choose that - but technically, she has no say.
IMO, when you shoot with someone, you accept the potential for them to post unflattering, ugly or otherwise less than optimal images of you all over the internet, not ask the model's opinion at all, and do whatever you want, with whatever image you want. if you can't accept that you are basically powerless, and suck it up, you shouldn't be modeling. That's just my opinion. Different people feel differently.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Miroslava Svoboda wrote:
^^^ This, it is really not worth it. I was promised that my shots would be cropped up to just shoulders and head once, they didn't go that way to a magazine submission that I didn't know about either. From this point on I won't listen to any promises, if something changes last minute no matter what assurance I'm being given I'm out.
If you post them, she might not do anything like that ever again just because you didn't stay withing her limits. If a promise is made, get it in writing, not for legal reason, but as a reminder.
During a shoot I have promised a lot, and usually forget during the editing and processing. Embarrassing when I get an email back, 'didn't you promise to clean up that bulge'.
Egg on face.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.
First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.
When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.
I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.
Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.
Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)
Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.
What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?
My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
- Aaron "What are my legal rights?"
and
"How do I avoid offending a friend?"
are very different questions. The first is tricky because you chose not to get a release when shooting something that might be an issue, giving up both protections and that chance to clarify what was OK. The answer is tricky, and the question should probably be addressed to a lawyer.
The second is easier. Do whatever she wants; that sometimes makes people happy, although not always. You might obviously note that she seems not to care at all about making YOU happy with the situation.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Scarlett de la Calle wrote:
Everyone has their limitations and you went past hers. Knowing that it went a bit further than the others you should have shown it to her first telling her that you wanted to use it before photoshopping it or saying you were going to release it online. If I shot with a photographer with a distinct request to no vagina shots and then I had vagina shots online I would be devastated. You would be devastated, in your place I would be mightily pissed.
Me pissed is not a good thing, believe me.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Images by MR wrote:
I've never being asked to remove a image from a TF shooting, but if a model asked for whatever reason I'd remove it. Doesn't really seem that big of a deal.
Just my thoughts ~ MR I try VERY hard to make sure the model is comfortable with anything I post, when I post it. But after the fact is kind of a different matter.
And, as far as "not a big deal," some of us place value on our efforts.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Rasa Von Werder wrote:
Hey Aaron - Please listen & hear me out, U've touched a sensitive subject where I have got burned a couple times. ALWAYS GET A RELEASE EVEN WHEN IT'S TP BECAUSE WITH TP U HAVE GIVEN SOMETHING VALUABLE TO THE MODEL - they gave U something, U gave them something. If U R worth Ur salt, which I presume U R, U need a release to use these pictures whether or not U gave the model cash - GET A RELEASE! ALWAYS!
I have found the following: With women THEY GET ANTSY, SKITTISH, & HAVE REGRETS RE. ANYTHING & EVERYTHING & THEY WILL PUT U THROUGH THE GRINDER AFTER ALL IS SAID & DONE! Have had them do it to me! They AGREE to take the pictures. Then they want the pictures - then they don't want U to use them! There is always a reason, but @ bottom it's fear, paranoia, bullcrap.
I had the same thing happen with my first MM model. I paid him twice as much as he was worth. I can work around faults, but this man had nothing but. I have always PRIDED myself on working around faults. So I covered his pot belly with a shirt, but when I turned him around, he had cellulite on his buns. Then I turned him to the front, his face was so ugly it could stop a clock--I made him turn his face away from the camera. Finally, after maneuvering every which way, I got about a dozen decent shots--one dozen shots of this creature for $300.
Here is the bottom line. I then posted the pics, he demanded I take one down because he did not like the way he looked. I told him "tough luck" & blocked him.
Another model I paid $500. to (& $250. in advances he was not paying back) suddenly writes me a letter to TAKE DOWN ALL HIS IMAGES - I can keep them for "my private use" but not make them public - & remove my name off anything of his - he wants to part ways with me forever. Later he worked for me again, & said HIS NEW GIRLFRIEND HAD A JEALOUS FIT & MADE HIM DO IT.
GET A RELEASE WITH EACH & EVERY MODEL U USE NO MATTER WHAT - HAVE SOMEONE WITNESS IT JUST IN CASE.
Words to the wise. THERE WILL ALWAYS B TROUBLE, SOONER OR LATER! Why in the world would you do a second shoot with someone who had acted like that?
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
That Italian Guy wrote:
A) Never work with llamas who aren't 100% happy for all photos taken during the shoot to be posted/used wherever, whenever and however you choose.
B) Always try to work with llamas comfortable shooting higher levels than you actually want to shoot.
C) If you're not in the UK, always get a release .
That said, it also helps to be a decent guy or at least to aspire to be one. I changed the name credit on a few images I've posted online of a llama just yesterday because she now prefers that they not be credited to her full name due to a change of career. I'm not sure if I would have taken the images down but I certainly have no problem changing the credit.
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com a) If I were a llama, no friggin way in hell would I buy into that.
Given the right angle and lighting I can make an attractive llama look downright ugly (sometimes happens even when I do not intend to). Or the interesting angle may show stuff the llama never intended. Ok, this requires mutual trust, which goes into other issues, but as stated...
b) Brilliant. I have had llamas pull me past my comfort zone.
c) on-going argument on MM. I would re-phrase to say, 'if in the UK, do not get a llama release'.
Is it the shot that will make you famous, and a star, and have llamas clamoring to work with you? If not, then do not post or pull it, unless it was demanded with a snotty attitude, in which case do whatever is legal.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
ontherocks wrote:
it's a crazy world where people get fired for bathing suit photos. i'm sympathetic to concerns about nudity (even hints of nudity). this is why people suggest hiring a nude model if you want to do nudes (or even implieds).
that said i've never given a model veto power on a trade shoot but if a model has a concern i will generally comply to keep the peace. i did have one model ask to have a picture taken down because she thought it made her face look funny.
if i paid the model then i might want my money back as a kill fee.
when models are dabbling into the world of nudes for the first time sometimes they (or people close to them) can have regrets. if you want to avoid that possibility hire a nude model. The funny thing is, I go WAY out of my way to make sure models are comfortable with what we shoot, and what is public. I often have shoots that are beyond what was agreed for whatever reason, and I'd never dream of using them. Could be an accident, could be something that needs to be cropped, could be I'm going to do something with photoshop later, whatever. As mentioned somewhere above, I want the model totally comfortable that I will follow our agreement. Given that, I simply want the model to do the same.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Nathine wrote:
Input from a model.
I carry with me contract agreements for paid and TFP/CD. I think it's better for both sides. In general what it says is that both parties agree to how the prints are to be released.
If stays much friendlier that way.
Nathine Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
Wait. You make the photographers sign YOUR release? And they actually do it? If she's paying me enough, I MIGHT agree. Hell, no. If she's paying enough, I will. I mean, for a certain rate, you can buy the copyright, so certainly I'll agree to approval.
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
T-D-L wrote:
Most days my answer would be:
Fuck em, it's your book post what you want.
BUT, with nudity it's a bit different. She clearly doesn't want anything too racy/revealing so too much boob (side/bottom/w.e.) is obviously outside her limits. To be honest I just tell everyone in this situation don't bother shooting anything remotely close a models limits, even if you don't cross them. Too much room for error, which you've now seen for yourself.
My advice: don't post the photos, scratch the whole look even. Next time you want to shoot open top, only do so with a model that at the very least has more examples of such, or even better...is ok with topless. That way you'll know that something as minor as a little underboob or whatever isn't going to be an issue. It's not worth the trouble to use em in my opinion. Even with a release that doesnt' protect you from a ditzy girl changing her mind for whatever reason. You may have the right to use the photos, but she can still be a pain in the ass if she feels she's been wronged. +1
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Photographer
FuzzyPenguinPhotos
Posts: 1
Langhorne, Pennsylvania, US
Aaron,
Especially today, in a digital age, where most times you will want to display your material online, it is ESSENTIAL that you have a basic model release signed by both parties BEFORE you take photo #1.
I've had EVERY model I work with sign a simple one-page release that clearly states a few basic things:
1) A general description of the shoot including any outfits, poses, or minimum number of shots required. (Not all shoots will have all three of these requirements. Be SPECIFIC when there are requirements.)
2) A clear description of the compensation to be provided upon completion of the requirements you listed in #1. If it's cash, state how much. State how much it is either per hour (including minimum or maximum hours) or as a flat fee for the shoot. State whether there will be royalties later on or not, CLEARLY. If there is no cash compensation (perhaps it's a Trade For Digital style shoot), say so (e.g. "A copy of all photos shall be delivered the model digitally after the shoot").
3) State who owns the rights to the shots. Are they shared? Are they yours? In general, if you pay the model, the shots are all yours. If it's TFD, it's at your discretion how you write it up. You could still say that the rights are all yours. Generally in a TFD situations I say that the rights to the material are shared, and that either party "can use the material for portfolio/non-commercial purposes". So she could post them to her Facebook or MM profile, as could you, but neither of you would then go off and sell them to a third party.
4) IF (BIG IF) you wish to give the model any rights of recall/rights of refusal, you put that in (in other words, for them to tell you that you cannot use the photos). If you do not wish for them to have such a right, you CLEARLY STATE that they have no such rights (any time you pay the model, it's most likely that you will NOT want to give them ANY rights to refusal).
The purpose of this agreement is to clearly spell out what BOTH party's can expect, and what rights they each have.
Hopefully you would never have to pull the agreement out of a drawer and hand it to a lawyer to enforce, but if you did, it's far better to spend 20min at the beginning of a shoot going over these points in a friendly, professional manner with your model, making sure she understands and agrees with each point and getting her agreement on them, than to wish you had done so when you hit a snag latter on.
If you write the model release up correctly, it should not be an issue with any model that handles herself in a professional manner. I have NEVER (knock wood to the future) had a model take issue with a release, never had a model refuse to sign. Simply put it out there as the required paperwork, at the same time that you ask to make a photocopy of her ID (which I also require). I will never post a photo online without a signed release, PERIOD. It covers my butt, and it's a sound, professional business practice. I highly recommend you do the same.
With regard to your specific situation with your friend, if you want to avoid damaging the friendship, your only choice is to not use the photos that she does not approve of you using (this is the rights of refusal issue noted above).
I think you could have avoided most of the issues here if you had gotten her to sign a simple release. However, if you had done so in this case, she still would not have liked certain shots, and you would then still be in a position of deciding whether to use them or not for friendship's sake, even if you had written the model release up giving you 100% of the rights to the photos and her no rights to refusal. In that case, you'd have legally been fine to use them, and would have lost a friend in the process.
Lastly, to reinforce something I noted above, you do NOT have to pay the model in order to retain the rights to your photos. You simply have to spell it out, explain it to her, and get her to sign the release. Most models that I've worked with on a free/non-paying shoot have been fine to hand over the rights to the photos in exchange for permission to use copies in their portfolio.
Any questions, feel free to ask.
Likewise, if you'd like to see an example of one of my model releases, let me know.
:-)
Model
Kirst
Posts: 550
Derry, New Hampshire, US
it's always best to avoid burning bridges.
and there are tons of other models who will do a shoot like this with no problems. just take it as a lesson learned, and shoot the concept with a better model.
Photographer
PMonkau Photography
Posts: 37
Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
You should always work with a contract(paid or unpaid) than you want have suprises afterwards
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
This is not a thread about Releases - this is a thread about the Model not liking the images and not wanting them displayed. If anything else, it's about trust and communication - having a Release in your back pocket doesn't mean the model will suddenly 'like' the images she has taken issue with... Kirst Callahan wrote:
it's always best to avoid burning bridges.
and there are tons of other models who will do a shoot like this with no problems. just take it as a lesson learned, and shoot the concept with a better model. 'Better' isn't really the right choice of words here - the 'appropriate' model might be a better choice.
Photographer
PMonkau Photography
Posts: 37
Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
If you have a release with all the agreements both parties can do whatever they want within the agreements. In my tfp contracts I will adress the issue that when the model doesnt want me to use the pictures for my website or anything it isnt a tfpshoot anymore so the model will have to pay a certain amount for me to remove them.
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
PMonkau Photography wrote:
If you have a release with all the agreements both parties can do whatever they want within the agreements. In my tfp contracts I will adress the issue that when the model doesnt want me to use the pictures for my website or anything it isnt a tfpshoot anymore so the model will have to pay a certain amount for me to remove them. You could do that - but then don't be surprised when no-one will work TFP with you...
Even with a thoughtfully planned concept, there still might be images the model feels are not covered by the agreement - such as with nip-slips and 'askew panties' showing more girly-bits than was warranted. It's entirely possible to take the images and then find when retouching that 'more' is on show than the model would want.
According to you, you'd charge the model not to display those images as you're covered by your contract... but you'd be a C*** if you did...
Photographer
Brandon Mathews
Posts: 4
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.
First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.
When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.
I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.
Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.
Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)
Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.
What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?
My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
- Aaron
Photographer
Brandon Mathews
Posts: 4
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Without a release you don't have the right to use the print... Bottom line. Neither does the model have the right to use the print without the permission of the photographer in writing.
But off course as you have already done just let commonsense prevail.
If you are building an art portfolio and by chance you get picked up in the future in a commercial agreement all your work is redundant without a release to the effect of this usage. You will be dropped like a hot potato because no one can invest in your work.
Copy right laws are very powerful laws and have become more so with the internet. And the scary part is once the image has been used commercially the evidence of it use is recorded and the law suit can beginning there is no turning back. You are just left with how much compensation you are going to loose. So clients will not touch your work without clear clean contracts.
When doing TFP do it correctly by in voicing your model for the cost of photographs and paying her for her services. Because without remuneration in cash there is no solid contract.
So no one hand they are your customer and on the other hand your client. Make two distinctive and clear transactions through your books.
This will make your release solid.
Photographer
All Yours Photography
Posts: 2731
Lawton, Oklahoma, US
The F-Stop wrote:
Come on really.. you can't work it out with the model? How about a test post to see how may hits n comments you get.. let the public decide in Critic section of the forums maybe? How good the image is wasn't the question. The issue is that it was a bit more revealing than the model had intended. Posting it to ask others defeats the purpose of asking if it should be posted.
Once an image is put online, it can never be completely put back in its box.
Photographer
All Yours Photography
Posts: 2731
Lawton, Oklahoma, US
Charlie-CNP wrote:
It is completely possible for boobs to pop out of open jackets..etc. during shoots. They can't always see when their stuff is hanging out during the shoot. This. When I have a model constantly trying to adjust a drape or open shirt to be at the edge of what she is comfortable with, I ask her to let me watch the camera angles for that and we'll toss anything that's over her limit.
1.) She can't tell from her angle what the camera "sees".
2.) After she adjusts the drape/garment and returns to her pose, the drape/garment usually moves anyway.
Models paying a photographer my level are rather scarce (although my port and reputation are now good enough that I can get as many TF shoots as I have time for). I shoot mostly TF, always with a release. Having the agreement in writing avoids most questions afterwards.
If we are anywhere near the model's limits, I always offer her a "review in camera and delete" option and when I give her the unedited photos for review, I ask her to let me know within a week or so if there are any that slipped over her comfort level.
I once had a model ask me to take down one photo about a year after our shoot because her sorority sisters were giving her grief about it. I told her that it was a nice photo, but I have lots of photos and took it down.
Barely StL wrote:
Nip slips happen - a lot. If nudity (or nipples showing or whatever) was not part of your agreement with the model before the shoot, don't even ask. Just delete them.
There's one model I've shot nine times over the past two years. In one avant-garde, open-jacket shoot there were at least a dozen nip slips. She knows nobody will ever see them.
It's amazing how much more relaxed she is - and how much more willing to push the envelope. She is now free to focus on poses and expressions rather than worrying about whether an open jacket is a little too open. If the model is confident that no shots outside of her limits will go out, she will look relaxed and confident in the photos and will be more willing to experiment.
Photographer
K E E L I N G
Posts: 39894
Peoria, Illinois, US
Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.
First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.
When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.
I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.
Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.
Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)
Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.
What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?
My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
- Aaron You've made your decision to not post it based on your respect for her wishes and your desire to continue a healthy shooting relationship with her, no piece of paper would affect those criteria for decision making.
Photographer
Grady Richardson
Posts: 278
Houston, Texas, US
I've done two shoots where the model was topless, but didn't want her breasts exposed (implied topless?). My normal procedure is to put up a web gallery from which they can pick their 10 favorite shots for post processing. To reassure them, I told them that they could also pick any shots that they did NOT want me to use in my portfolio. In each case there were shots which had more exposure than they were comfortable with and I honored their requests not to use them.
In my opinion, it's better to maintain a good reputation among models than to use a shot or two that she is uncomfortable with, however much I might like it. In addition, I think that if I hadn't made this offer, their minds would have be too focused on their level of exposure to pose well - they would have been too stiff and self-conscious.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
RKD Photographic wrote:
This is not a thread about Releases - this is a thread about the Model not liking the images and not wanting them displayed. Spot on. I happen to agree, the OP should have had a release. It is foolish, particularly in California, to post images without written consent. In the end though, this is not a thread about legalities, it is about how to deal with an unhappy model. No matter what she would have signed, she still would have been unhappy.
Model
Jen B
Posts: 4474
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.
Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). ...
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
- Aaron I'd not post it. I'd also not shoot anything "daring for the model" with anyone again unless you are certain that they are completely ready for it.
If in doubt, in nudity, do not post it.
Jen
Photographer
Mark C Smith
Posts: 1073
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Sounds like a friend did you a favor by posing for you. I'd say be a good guy and don't post the images she doesn't feel comfortable with you posting, especially if nudity is involved (naughty bits visible or not) Generally speaking, I give TF shoot models "veto" rights over images, even with signed releases. So far, none of them have taken me up on it. Pick your battles 
Model
Jen B
Posts: 4474
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Fotografica Gregor wrote:
first off, I don't shoot anywhere remotely near the edge of a model's limits (and for the most part shoot with models without limits regarding nudity....)
....
if she asked me to take down an image for which she was not compensated or which did not reflect the same content already in one of her online portfolios I would do so.... This.
I see this is a thread from May so I hope the situation has resolved well.
Jen
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18907
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US
I see three different problem here.
First is the OP's title. It is not that she does not like the photo but that it exceeds her comfort level.
Second is the legal issue of what rights he does have absent a model release. The OP is in CA that has some of the most restrictive rights of publicity laws so I doubt he has any legal right to post them.
Third is the ethical issue. If it was just that she did not like it and the OP had a MR then IMO the decision of what to do is his alone. The model signed a release and is an adult and would have to deal with it. Of course in this case she did not so that point is moot. Even if he did have a valid MR I think the right thing to do is not to post.
In the future always get a MR signed up front and if the model does not want to sign, and she should have seen the release prior to the shoot, then it is up to the photographer to decide to shoot or not. The OP should not assume that the model will not sign a MR because it is TF.
Model
Jen B
Posts: 4474
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Koryn Locke wrote:
You own the image. You can, legally, do whatever you want with it. If you WANT to be nice and not use it, you can choose that - but technically, she has no say.
IMO, when you shoot with someone, you accept the potential for them to post unflattering, ugly or otherwise less than optimal images of you all over the internet, not ask the model's opinion at all, and do whatever you want, with whatever image you want. if you can't accept that you are basically powerless, and suck it up, you shouldn't be modeling. That's just my opinion. Different people feel differently. Hi Koryn,
I agree with this, (while not conflicting with my earlier statement though.) It sounds like the model went beyond her comfort zone in nudity and regretted it later.
I am particularly grateful for photographers who let me go through my new model growing pains of posting everything I liked from our shoots or ones that they thought may not be as strong technically as their other work but, allowed me to use and post the shots anyway.
Just now am I fully understanding what they were gifting me by doing that. I wish I could be better in reciprocating and hope to be at least half as gracious as they were when I can pay it forward.
Jen
Photographer
PMonkau Photography
Posts: 37
Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
RKD Photographic wrote:
You could do that - but then don't be surprised when no-one will work TFP with you...
Even with a thoughtfully planned concept, there still might be images the model feels are not covered by the agreement - such as with nip-slips and 'askew panties' showing more girly-bits than was warranted. It's entirely possible to take the images and then find when retouching that 'more' is on show than the model would want.
According to you, you'd charge the model not to display those images as you're covered by your contract... but you'd be a C*** if you did... In the contract you also cover which sort of pictures(fashion/swimwear/lingerie/nude/suggestive nude) will be taken. So when its says there won't be nudity/lingerie/swimwear for example you wont be able to show something like that. You can never publish something that wasnt agreed on in the contract. If I would breach the contract by doing something like that I hurt the integrity of the model and it would be very easy for her to take legal actions.
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
PMonkau Photography wrote:
In the contract you also cover which sort of pictures(fashion/swimwear/lingerie/nude/suggestive nude) will be taken. So when its says there won't be nudity/lingerie/swimwear for example you wont be able to show something like that. You can never publish something that wasnt agreed on in the contract. If I would breach the contract by doing something like that I hurt the integrity of the model and it would be very easy for her to take legal actions. Only my Model Release specifies the shooting style: Portrait / Fashion / Dessous / Implied-Nude / Nude etc.
The usage Agreement merely states where and how the images may be used - and by whom.
The problem then arises as what each genre actually means - I have seen fashion images where nipples can clearly be seen, whether obscured by translucent material or bare...
Is that a fashion image, a topless image or an implied-topless fashion-image?
At the end of the day this was a TFP-whatever shoot and the model isn't happy with a few of the images, as 'more' is on display than she realised would be - so: do you play the asshole card and say "they're mine - I'll do as I please?" or do you play nice and agree not to use the images under dispute?
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