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A topic I have talked about a million times, focus
Hi everyone, So I bought the new lens just as many of you suggested. I got the 85mm 1.8. Still, when I do a shoot, if I take about 1,300 images, only about 300 are in good, usable focus at 100% either in Lightroom or Photoshop. The rest are a bit of a mess. I have ruled out many things. Here is what I'm trying to figure out. Depth of field. Maybe I don't understand it even though I think I do. So let's say I shoot at F8 with my 85mm lens, 6 feet away, crop is 1.6X on the 70D. That means i have about 2 and a half inches in total of in focus area. Now let's say I go down to F2.8, same lens, same distance. I now only have an inch to work with. Now I understand that if I move or maybe the model moves some pictures will not be so great. But with so little room for error, just a few inches or an inch, it almost seems impossible to shoot something that will turn out. I would have to move back a lot in order to get anything to work. So my question is, how do I deal with this? Have any of your ever had focusing issues and done something that ended up fixing the issue? At this point I have no idea what to do. I know my focus point is always on the correct area, I have enough light, shutter speed is fast enough, and even when the f stop is above 5.6 it still happens to me no matter what. Maybe there is something I am missing here. I swear that I hope the issue is me so that I can correct myself. I have sent the camera to Canon 3 times and once they found an issue with the camera body so they replaced a part, and the other times they worked on the lenses. I ended up selling those lenses and bought something better but the issue is still there. I even went into the camera store and asked someone who recommended I go in and do micro adjustments. I did that today and nope. I would appreciate some real feedback. Sarcasm is fun, I get it, but I am trying to get this to stop and I'm beyond frustrated to the point where I might sell the camera and just stop. So please try to actually help me if that's possible. I actually went to school for photo and I've been taking pictures since 1996 or 97. I never had camera issues until I started using digital in 2007. I'm tired of this. Thanks! ____________________________________________________ UPDATE (7/25/14): After reading everyone's comments, talking on here for hours, and only sleeping 2 1/2 hours, I met up with my model and did a 2 hour shoot with her. I started off by trying to stay above 1/600 as someone asked me to do. The result was still the same. I also used back focusing once again and the issue was still there. I also moved further away and nothing. Went up to at least f4 as some stated and nothing. I then thought of something I had done before with more success. When I got the camera I was actually shooting using live view. I thought it was cool that I could simply touch the screen to tell the camera where to focus and it would take the picture simultaneously. At the time, most of the pictures were in focus, not great focus but good enough (this is when I was using the lens kit and expected a lot out of it, the Canon 18-135mm). Then, someone at work told me to stop doing that because it would make me look stupid at shoots so he recommended that I stick to looking through the viewfinder. Ever since I started doing that, well, that's when my issues started. Anyway, after trying everything that was recommended, and realizing that I was still not having any luck, I decided to turn on live view and just say screw it and shoot the rest of the shoot like that. Well, it worked. Here is a sample:  And here is another sample:  The quality of that is crazy. And most of the images, from the point I started shooting with live view on, look like that now. Here is a sample of a shot from far away that I edited.  I think the reason this works is because as soon as i touch the screen it focuses and takes the picture, giving very little time to the model and myself to move and throw things off. This was done outside, no tripod, no lights. I'm going to test it again on Sunday with another model and see if I get the same consistent results as I did today. I now think that the issue I was having was a result of me shooting handheld at such a shallow dop. Because by the time I was done focusing and took the picture, both the model of myself had probably already moved that inch or two. That means I now have to do more tests at f8 just to see if far away 3/4 body shots will turn out properly or not using the viewfinder. This is all me just pretending that I know what I'm talking about. I could be dead wrong but today something finally worked right. Jul 24 14 08:51 pm Link Sample pics would help. If you can show/define what you think is 'wrong', and a similar pic that is 'right', then shooters with experience can provide more insight. Without samples, we are guessing. I haven't read your previous posts, so what camera are you using? #1 Are you are shooting in manual focus? Camera on a tripod? Model moving? If so, yeah, the area that is in focus will remain the same, and the model will move in and out of it. I don't know how you are shooting, so I'm just guessing. #2 Previous subject of several threads, if you are shooting mostly close-ups, the focus square in your viewfinder doesn't exactly match the part of the sensor that is 'focusing'. Different cameras, different variables. I shoot a 7D, and found that when shooting headshots, I would frequently not get the eyes in focus; the focus plane would be an inch in front or behind where I wanted it. The 'focus square' in the 7D is actually a rectangle shape, and extends well beyond the square in the viewfinder. I changed my aiming spot, and got better results. I'm sure the camera was actually focusing on the bridge of the nose, or side of the face when I thought it was aiming at the eye. I also shoot fewer close-ups and don't obsess so much about razor sharp focus since I edit for a softer look now. #3 The 7D has a several options on how large of an area the camera focuses on. I use the point option, the smallest possible area. The larger area the camera is focusing on, the more the focus plane will move around. Again, don't know if you're shooting on manual focus. If you're getting good results even part of the time, then you should be able to refine your technique to get good results most of the time. I think you'll have better luck figuring it out if you shoot 5-10 shots at a time then review. Jul 24 14 09:33 pm Link First...make sure the eyepiece is adjusted to your viewfinder eye. This will let you know what part of your subject is in or out of focus when composing the shot. Keep in mind the larger the aperature...the less depth of field, and the smaller the greater DOF. If your camera focuses when you press on the shutter, then that could be your problem if things were focused when you composed the shot but not in the final result. I have a separate button on my D800 I can press to focus, and have disabled any focusing with the shutter. If your camera has this feature, I highly recommend you use it so that your focus doesn't go through a re-read when you activate the shutter. (I had a lot of out-of-focus shots before I learned about this approach.) I would also suggest switching to single point focusing...and avoid all the averaging that can go on. This way YOU decide what YOU want to focus on. Use the averaging settings when you get into point and shoot situations. Jul 24 14 09:42 pm Link Ok let me break down what I do. I shoot manual, raw, ISO usually between 200 and 400. Usually 200. F stop never goes under f2.8, shutter speed is never below 125th. I have the Canon 70D with a Canon 85mm F1.8 lens. Use the focus squares, focus on the eye closest to me. I don't use a tripod. I mainly shoot people that are not moving, mostly portraits and headshots. I'm holding the camera correctly for sure. I have tried both the back focus technique and focus in the shutter speed. Didn't make a difference. As stated I have done micro adjustments and that hasn't made a difference. I have switched distances, from 3 feet up to 7 or 8 feet and that hasn't made a difference. I have use smaller apertures and that hasn't made a difference. Camera is on single shot. Diopter is set correctly. I have 20/13 vision which is better than 20/20 vision. I don't recompose anymore, I used to but I thought it would help if I didn't but it hasn't helped at all. With that said, brb, let me see what pictures I can find. I delete the bad ones so the examples I post won't be as bad as usual. _________________________________________________ OK SO HERE IS A GOOD SAMPLE:  AND THIS IS A SO SO SAMPLE:  The bad ones are WAY worse than the so so sample but again I didn't keep those so just picture the last sample looking way worse with less detail all over. Jul 24 14 09:43 pm Link What brand is your lens ? Jul 24 14 09:46 pm Link Charger Photography wrote: Canon 85mm F1.8 Jul 24 14 09:53 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Okay never mind then... I have no idea Jul 24 14 09:55 pm Link Charger Photography wrote: Thanks for trying :-) I have zero idea myself. I mean people shoot freaking flying birds and crap and I can't even get a human being that is barely moving in focus. I'm stumped. Jul 24 14 09:56 pm Link You take 1300 images per shoot? Are you sure you're focusing each and every shot? I use the 85mm 1.8f d lens on a Nikon D7000. It's super rare that I blow a focus moment and I use the autofocus. I don't use my glasses when I look through the viewfinder. If you are shooting a high volume of images maybe it is that. Regardless, I think you should have a look at your technique as you have taken that camera back a lot and you're not getting anywhere there. Jul 24 14 10:01 pm Link LA StarShooter wrote: I actually used to take less, way less. I now focus each and every shot. I only take so many to cover my butt since my in focus rate is so low. I have looked at my technique. Watch a million and one videos and read up on it too. Set up a target in my room out outside and practiced. Had a friend model for me to test. Today I even got a model to help me in exchange for me giving him headshots. When I say I am trying everything, I really am. If you told me to call a witch and give her my kidneys, i would do that lol. I'm trying to see if anyone mentions something I haven't thought of or done yet. Jul 24 14 10:04 pm Link Take a builders measuring tape Pull out the tape and take a photo at 45° angle, focusing on the middle.  Post the image here, with exif details. . Jul 24 14 10:04 pm Link For the bad shots, is there anywhere in the pic that is in focus? Jul 24 14 10:06 pm Link PhotoByWayne wrote: Sometimes no, sometimes yes, it varies a lot actually. Jul 24 14 10:10 pm Link Raoul Isidro Images wrote: Let me see if I have one. I did this before with pennies and some small boxes I had and things looked alright but that was with my other lenses which i still had issues with. Anyway, let me check. Jul 24 14 10:11 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: How steady are your hands? 125 can be a challenge if you tremble a bit. It's not usual. Try 200-250. Go up to 400 on the shutterspeed if necessary.. . Jul 24 14 10:16 pm Link LA StarShooter wrote: I've actually gone way past 400 at times and that hasn't helped me either. I even tried a monopod since setting up a tripod in the streets of LA can be not that smart and no. And I have leaned on walls and had the model lean on the wall too in order to steady us both and no. And I have had the model sit on a stool i carry around and no. Jul 24 14 10:24 pm Link Man, well I'll be the oddball here but...... if I was zooming into that small of an area in an image that size, and it appeared as sharp as the sample photo, I would say it is WELL within my personal tolerances. I mean, you're peeping at a really small area on a crop sensor image . .. . Jul 24 14 10:28 pm Link Mortonovich wrote: I went to Samy's here in LA and someone at the store told me that zooming in more than 65% was a no no because looking at something at 100% was not realistic. Is that something that is true? I have always heard to not go past 100%, never 65%. How much do you zoom in? Jul 24 14 10:34 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: This was taken with a tripod. So use a tripod on your next shooting & see the difference Jul 24 14 10:51 pm Link Images by MR wrote: Yeah the issue is that around here doing that could cause issues with cops since I don't shoot with permits. That and it would take me awhile to get different things done with all the set ups. I'm trying to solve this without a tripod if at all possible. Jul 24 14 10:54 pm Link You have slight back-focus. There are more sharp areas behind the "9" than there are in front of it. That explains the fuzzy eyebrow and sharp temple skin on your initial image samples. Also, try moving back, away from the subject. At that distance from table and subject, you only have 1" of DOF!  . Jul 24 14 11:16 pm Link Raoul Isidro Images wrote: LOL the table doesn't move, or the measuring tape, and neither does the tripod and camera. It was just for a test :-) Jul 24 14 11:23 pm Link It seems that the 70D has presented the focusing issues you are asking about to others also. Here's a Youtube video that discusses it, and provides another approach to getting sharp photos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bx9povjPtI Here's is also a Youtube vid that discusses the 70D focusing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vQwZzbhzXs The 70D has a back button for focusing so you can focus with your thumb and leave the shutter out of it completely. This lets you quickly single point focus and then recompose. I am certain that this will also help solve your autofocus problems...as it did mine. This technique is also great when your autofocus lens wants to "hunt" for the right focus. You can just manually focus and trip the shutter in those cases. Also...I shoot with a 36MP D800 and f2.8 lens mostly. Unless I am really going for a lot of bokeh...I need to shoot at least around f5.6 to get the kind of definition that I can zoom in on in Photoshop. Some of my final proofs might only be 10% of the original image, but are still very sharp. In this way I've gotten a lot of great protrait shots when in fact I was shooting a whole body at a distance. Jul 24 14 11:24 pm Link David Stone Imaging wrote: Yeah I've watched the first video a few times and I actually purchased the full video that contains the second video from his website. I thought it would help me, I mean it has, but just not for this issue. Jul 24 14 11:27 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Much more than 100% with a lens that isn't rated as highly as yours...but still highly rated. Jul 24 14 11:42 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Stop shooting with a narrow depth of field. It doesn't look good on head/beauty shots anyway. Jul 24 14 11:45 pm Link It would seem that things are changing from the time you focus to the time you activate your shutter. The only way to deal with this is to disable shutter focusing and use the back focus button to focus. I love working my thumb and forefinger this way, and would never do it differently at this point. Jul 24 14 11:45 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: Do a test shoot with a model. Don't shoot outside. Figure out what's causing the problem first. Jul 24 14 11:47 pm Link Mikey McMichaels wrote: I actually did that today. I tested out the micro adjustment with him and then took headshots. I've also done tests with a friend of mine. Granted, they have been outside but I shoot only outside. I personally like shooting wide. This is from today: Jul 24 14 11:51 pm Link David Stone Imaging wrote: Thanks for the samples. Yeah I feel like the focus shifts somehow as soon as i take the picture. That's my feeling anyway. I was doing back focus before for a few weeks and it didn't help me. I had the same amount of images out of focus. I want to say I am the one doing something wrong. I'm just not sure of what it is. Jul 24 14 11:53 pm Link Yajhil Alvarez wrote: As a general rule...I don't like to get into discussions about lenses because it comes down to personal preferences and opinions and what you are shooting...and everyone is different. You clearly have one of the finest lenses money can buy...but IMHO it has its limitations if you are shooting portraits outdoors on location and wanting to be in close. The 50mm might be a better choice for close-up portraits, as the 85mm needs some distance to work. Jul 25 14 12:13 am Link Raoul Isidro Images wrote: That should be the norm. Most (IIRC) camera / lens combinations should have 1/3 in focus in front, and 2/3 behind (instead of 50/50) Jul 25 14 12:20 am Link David Stone Imaging wrote: Actually, I owned the 50mm f1.8 II before I switched to this one. In order to get a shot like this one that I posted with the 50mm, I would have to be like 2 feet from the models face. That would also extremely lower the dop when i shot wide and it would distort people's faces a bit. With the 85mm I can be about 5 to 6 feet away and get this kind of shot without the distortion. There are times with the 85mm lens when, if i want to get more of the person in, I do have to be pretty damn far away, but usually that's not really an issue. I often have 5 to 9 feet to shoot wherever I go and I almost never shoot entire bodies anymore. Jul 25 14 12:23 am Link There's a lot involved with wide aperture portraits. ANY readjustment will result in the focal plane moving (focus / recomposing) How sharp is your lens wide open? Any camera shake involved? What is adequate for the portrait you want to take? (85/1.8D wide below - somewhat soft in the front, which I have printed somewhat large, and the agency has on their main board) - IMO the second image you've shown is more than adequate at normal printing / viewing distances / stop pixel peeping.  Jul 25 14 12:25 am Link David Stone Imaging wrote: Yajhil Alvarez wrote: If you are doing a back focus, you have to disable shutter focus in your menus or you will still reset the focus. Jul 25 14 12:25 am Link -JAY- wrote: I've never gone lower than 2.8. I read that if a lens says it's f1.8 you want to go down at least 1 stop. I also watched videos of tests done to show why you shouldn't so I just haven't. Should I though? I totally can obviously. Jul 25 14 12:33 am Link David Stone Imaging wrote: David Stone Imaging wrote: If you are doing a back focus, you have to disable shutter focus in your menus or you will still reset the focus. I did disable it when i was doing the back focus thing for sure. And I shoot only manual. I haven't tried to shoot any other way, not even when I have shot some videos for fun. Jul 25 14 12:35 am Link Well...this kind of problem will stop you in your tracks until it is resolved. I would almost suggest renting another D70 and see if you get better results. Or try composing the shot from a greater distance. Change what you are doing to get as much info as you can. If you do think camera shake might have something to do with it...increase your ISO so you also have to increase your shutter speed. Or tripod the capture. Jul 25 14 01:01 am Link Do you know anyone that shoots Canon? Maybe you can try it on another body and have the owner shoot also. That should help you troubleshoot the issue if anything, because you said that you had yours checked out already. Was the lens brand new and from a reputable dealer? Jul 25 14 01:02 am Link David Stone Imaging wrote: I have a shoot in a few hours, it's 1am now and I have to be up at 6am but I can't sleep so yeah, this is stopping me in every way. I'm about to shoot at a target in my room using different settings until I get tired enough to pass out. My shutter speeds have been higher than 300, 400, 500, i mean high up there and that didn't change the result. A tripod for all my shoots here in LA wouldn't make sense. And I have tried to increase my distance and if anything that made things worse for me actually, even when my f-stop was at 8 or 9. I'm telling you, this right here is a mess that I can't seem to clean up. I just posted a casting ad here so that maybe I can meet up with a photographer in the area in order to have them use the camera and see if the results are different for them in exchange for me helping them during a shoot. Yes, I am this desperate lol. Jul 25 14 01:06 am Link |
