Victoria Elle wrote:
The standard in the real world, on professional photoshoots, with clients, and agency models, is that the "clock" starts at call time, when the model arrives at the shoot, whether she then has to sit through hours of hair & make-up or not.

Because this is MM and not the real world, you can negotiate for the clock to start whenever you'd like, just make sure it is something you discuss in pre-shoot communication, particularly if you have booked a model who does a lot of commercial work, and will be expecting you to adhere to real world standards.

I agree....call time. That applies to crew as well.

Victoria Elle wrote:
The standard in the real world, on professional photoshoots, with clients, and agency models, is that the "clock" starts at call time, when the model arrives at the shoot, whether she then has to sit through hours of hair & make-up or not.

Because this is MM and not the real world, you can negotiate for the clock to start whenever you'd like, just make sure it is something you discuss in pre-shoot communication, particularly if you have booked a model who does a lot of commercial work, and will be expecting you to adhere to real world standards.

How the F is MM not the Real World?  That's quite the elitist attitude.  Oops, except that you're on MM.  Hhmmm, guess you're just slumming huh?  So which church do you go to?  That must be the 1 Real Church, and all the rest are just fakes. 
    I lived in Oregon for years.  For people there, in the Real World, someone always pumps your gas for you.  For visitors to Oregon, in the Real World, you pump your own gas. In the Real World models pay photographers, depending on what real world you're in. No wonder nothing ever makes much sense, I'm just a figment of someone's imagination, living in a fake world.
    Hey, in the Real World, does everyone compliment the photographer on how good the pictures look?  Cause here in my fake existence they generally compliment the subject of the picture. Never understood that.

Pictures of Life wrote:
How the F is MM not the Real World?  That's quite the elitist attitude.  Oops, except that you're on MM.  Hhmmm, guess you're just slumming huh?  So which church do you go to?  That must be the 1 Real Church, and all the rest are just fakes. 
    I lived in Oregon for years.  For people there, in the Real World, someone always pumps your gas for you.  For visitors to Oregon, in the Real World, you pump your own gas. In the Real World models pay photographers, depending on what real world you're in. No wonder nothing ever makes much sense, I'm just a figment of someone's imagination, living in a fake world.
    Hey, in the Real World, does everyone compliment the photographer on how good the pictures look?  Cause here in my fake existence they generally compliment the subject of the picture. Never understood that.

It sound very arrogant to me too. It was like she was calling my work as a jocke. I kind of undestand their point of view because I know that in the "real world" nobody takes you serious unless you are making serious money for you or for your clients.

MDWM wrote:
Regardless what world you live in, this should be discussed before the shoot date so there are no surprises.

So out of the "real world" (commercial work world?) there is no standard. Right? There is no photo modelling standard. Is that right?

Marcio Faustino wrote:
So it is a commercial (and probably editorial) world standard and not a modelling world standard?

I am asking because not every modeling work is a commercial (or editorial) work.

For alive nude sitters I know (or I assume) it is not a standard because I learned with them to start counting time once them and I are ready to shoot. And I have followed this procedure even with models used to it that you call "real world" (commercial work world?), but it is the first time, after years, a model told me to count once she steps in the building.

I am not complaining, I just want be sure about when can or should this standard be applied.

It is a modeling world standard for ALL types of modeling, not "probably" anything, ALL.  I am also a live/nude/painter's model, and have been so for 6 years.  I have modeled for schools, and privately for painters.  I have always been paid from the time I am scheduled to show up, to the time I leave.

The only place where it is ever questioned as standard is here, on MM, by photographers who shoot primarily as a hobby.  Because these photographers do not have a client to answer to, they are free to negotiate anything to fit their needs, *and there is nothing wrong with that*.  However, not realizing that they are negotiating away/being negotiated away from actually industry standards can impede both photographers and models who work primarily through model mayhem from working outside of model mayhem.  This is not everyone's goal, but it is some people's.  That is why it is important to know these things.

I will ask you this: if you were hired to shoot something that would be published somewhere, when would you expect the clock to begin for you?

Victoria Elle wrote:
It is a modeling world standard for ALL types of modeling, not "probably" anything, ALL.  I am also a live/nude/painter's model, and have been so for 6 years.  I have modeled for schools, and privately for painters.  I have always been paid from the time I am scheduled to show up, to the time I leave.

The only place where it is ever questioned as standard is here, on MM, by photographers who shoot primarily as a hobby.  Because these photographers do not have a client to answer to, they are free to negotiate anything to fit their needs, *and there is nothing wrong with that*.  However, not realizing that they are negotiating away/being negotiated away from actually industry standards can impede both photographers and models who work primarily through model mayhem from working outside of model mayhem.  This is not everyone's goal, but it is some people's.  That is why it is important to know these things.

I will ask you this: if you were hired to shoot something that would be published somewhere, when would you expect the clock to begin for you?

I barely work with models from MM.
Anyway, I should always start counting the time once models step in then.
For years I have being doing the opposite.

Thanks for the info. I don't want be against the norms or seeing as such by models. (I hope it is not too late).

Pictures of Life wrote:
How the F is MM not the Real World?  That's quite the elitist attitude.

MM = the internet world.  It exists primarily online.  Most of its members interactions occur primarily through computer screens as opposed to interacting in the real world.  That's all I meant.

Pictures of Life wrote:
In the Real World models pay photographers, depending on what real world you're in.

No, both models and photographers are paid by clients.  Photographers are paid by non-model subjects (actors, brides, people who need portraits for whatever reason, etc.)

Victoria Elle wrote:
I will ask you this: if you were hired to shoot something that would be published somewhere, when would you expect the clock to begin for you?

I forgot to answer this.

I always have being paid once I start working, which means once the event starts. I didn't do many works as photographer but it is how I have being paid, be as photographer or as any other work.

Pictures of Life wrote:

How the F is MM not the Real World?  That's quite the elitist attitude.  Oops, except that you're on MM.  Hhmmm, guess you're just slumming huh?  So which church do you go to?  That must be the 1 Real Church, and all the rest are just fakes.

It's not; in the sense that Internet hobbyists make up their own rules, their own terms, with often complete disregard/indifference to long standing industry/professional conventions/standards/policies. Policies and standards that have been in place and understood by all for a very long time. Taking offense to someone pointing out that MM is not the real world is silly - because it's just not (at least not the industry real-world of clients/agencies/etc). Doesn't mean that there aren't professionals here - but the numbers unfortunately drop yearly.

As has been said; in the street-level real-world, the "clock" starts at call time or when the model arrives. Makeup/hair/wardrobe are billable hours. Time doesn't start when the photographer starts clicking the shutter. Personally, I don't really do hourly shoots - I'm doing 1/2 day and full day - therefore 15-30 mins either way is not such a big deal.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
It's not; in the sense that Internet hobbyists make up their own rules, their own terms, with often complete disregard/indifference to long standing industry/professional conventions/standards/policies. Policies and standards that have been in place and understood by all for a very long time. Taking offense to someone pointing out that MM is not the real world is silly - because it's just not (at least not the industry real-world of clients/agencies/etc). Doesn't mean that there aren't professionals here - but the numbers unfortunately drop yearly.

As has been said; in the street-level real-world, the "clock" starts at call time or when the model arrives. Makeup/hair/wardrobe are billable hours. Time doesn't start when the photographer starts clicking the shutter. Personally, I don't really do hourly shoots - I'm doing 1/2 day and full day - therefore 15-30 mins either way is not such a big deal.

I hire models for no more than 1h or 1h30min. Often I finish the work before. And some times I just need one shot which takes less than 10min to preper everything to shoot. But I barely shoot for clients so it is not real world.

But I will pay models once they arrive in the building since it is the modeling standard. (but no more talk, toilet nor coffee time when they arrive. Must arrive ready to shoot. Talk, toilet and coffee only after time is finish).

Marcio Faustino wrote:
I forgot to answer this.

I always have being paid once I start working, which means once the event starts. I didn't do many works as photographer but it is how I have being paid, be as photographer or as any other work.

But if you were hired to shoot something that wasn't an event: if you were hired to shoot something in a studio, for example.  While you are setting up your lights and etc., you are still working even though you are not taking a photograph.  While a model is having hair/make-up/wardrobe done, she is still working, even though she is not modeling.  After a MUA has finished doing make-up, but is still on set watching the model to see if she needs touch-ups, they are still working even though they are not doing make-up.  And so on.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
Taking offense to someone pointing out that MM is not the real world is silly - because it's just not (at least not the industry real-world of clients/agencies/etc)

+100

Victoria Elle wrote:

But if you were hired to shoot something that wasn't an event: if you were hired to shoot something in a studio, for example.  While you are setting up your lights and etc., you are still working even though you are not taking a photograph.  While a model is having hair/make-up/wardrobe done, she is still working, even though she is not modeling.  After a MUA has finished doing make-up, but is still on set watching the model to see if she needs touch-ups, they are still working even though they are not doing make-up.  And so on.

Of couser. When model is prepering herself, specially when it takes several minuts, just to get what was demanded for the photographs, she is woeking and it is counted as rate time. The same as MUA as well as photographer when have to set things up and coordenate the team.

But when model is arriving, being introduced, finishing the talk and stories that started back when we were outside, waiting for her tee or coffee being served or even prepered, when she goes to toilet when arriving (not to change nor to make up) in a photo session that will last no longer than 30min or 1h. They are bot working at all.

Even worst with nude models when they arrive with belt or underwear marks on the skin and we have to wait several minuts to make the marks desapear. Which is not a problem to me because I am never in a hurry. At least not until now because I don't want desapoint models for not following the modelling standard.

The same way my day job don't pay me once I step inside the company but after I get ready to start producing for the company.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
Taking offense to someone pointing out that MM is not the real world is silly - because it's just not (at least not the industry real-world of clients/agencies/etc). Doesn't mean that there aren't professionals here - but the numbers unfortunately drop yearly.

I didn't know people assume that just because we are posing the question in MM we only shoot as hobby or only shoot MM models. And assuming it is also silly.

I also had no idea "real world" mean everything but MM or internet. By context I thought it meant commercial photography world.

IDiivil wrote:
My clock starts at call time. To match call time, I time my arrival to be usually 5-10 mins early (often more early than that, and I sit in my car) to ensure I am just as ready to get going on the time agreed upon.

Unless otherwise negotiated, I expect the clock to include time in the makeup chair, during setup, etc.

Ok, things start make sense now. The standard is not start counting the time once model step in the bulding but on the time agreeded. And of course we expect models or anybody else in the team to arrive a little bit  earlier to be read to start to work in the time agreed. Exactly the same as in any kind of job.

Maybe it was communication issue between me and the model so I misunderstood what she meant.

Victoria Elle wrote:
The standard in the real world, on professional photoshoots, with clients, and agency models, is that the "clock" starts at call time, when the model arrives at the shoot, whether she then has to sit through hours of hair & make-up or not.

I'm not sure what 'Real World' you live in - the clock actually starts when the model puts foot on set. paying for a makeup artist and hair stylist is one thing, paying for someone to sit there and get made up or styled is asinine!

Victoria Elle wrote:
The standard in the real world, on professional photoshoots, with clients, and agency models, is that the "clock" starts at call time, when the model arrives at the shoot, whether she then has to sit through hours of hair & make-up or not.

Because this is MM and not the real world, you can negotiate for the clock to start whenever you'd like, just make sure it is something you discuss in pre-shoot communication, particularly if you have booked a model who does a lot of commercial work, and will be expecting you to adhere to real world standards.

I agree too.

John Horwitz wrote:
I'm not sure what 'Real World' you live in - the clock actually starts when the model puts foot on set. paying for a makeup artist and hair stylist is one thing, paying for someone to sit there and get made up or styled is asinine!

I think it depends.

When it is requered to model spend a lot of time to be prepered for a photoshoot, specially when there are many modification on hear and body it make sense paying the model for the time she is spending, because she could use this time to work for somebody else if not paid.

But when it is just some basic preparation on make up and outfit no model have ever demand payment. They often come a little bit earlier for it and step on the set on the agreed time about. But of course we stard counting the time when the work starts, no metter if it starts before or after the agreed time.

Again, just like in any job, when you need a big prodution for your performace in a work you are paid for your time of productio. But no job will pay workers while they are in the change room putting their uniforme on, but just once they step in the production secction which is expect to be on the agreeded time.

Victoria Elle wrote:
The standard in the real world, on professional photoshoots, with clients, and agency models, is that the "clock" starts at call time, when the model arrives at the shoot, whether she then has to sit through hours of hair & make-up or not.

Because this is MM and not the real world, you can negotiate for the clock to start whenever you'd like, just make sure it is something you discuss in pre-shoot communication, particularly if you have booked a model who does a lot of commercial work, and will be expecting you to adhere to real world standards.

The correct and complete answer to the OP's question is in Victoria's response.  The thread could have ended right there.

Marcio Faustino wrote:
Ok, things start make sense now. The standard is not start counting the time once model step in the bulding but on the time agreeded. And of course we expect models or anybody else in the team to arrive a little bit  earlier to be read to start to work in the time agreed. Exactly the same as in any kind of job.

Maybe it was communication issue between me and the model so I misunderstood what she meant.

Yes, if we agreed upon 2pm and I arrive at 1:50pm, I don't expect you to pay me for the 10 mins. I'll drink some water, use the restroom if I have to, touch up makeup, etc...

This ensures I am absolutely ready at call/clock time.

Granted, here's how I arrive:
1. I will have no lines because I wear dresses without bras/underwear.
2. I generally won't have to use the restroom, eat, etc because I already took care of everything before coming over. The only exception is if I had to drive several hours to get to you. I might have to take literally a minute to go pee then ;P
3. My makeup and everything is applied and ready to go. I might take a look in the mirror to make sure everything is OK, but that's it.
4. I'm not going to take tea, coffee, etc time unless I'm early. If we're near call time, that's something I can do after the shoot so you aren't losing money to me messing around.
5. I like chatting, but I prefer to just get started shooting, so I'm not really that chatty until some point during the shoot when we find our groove, and then after when we are relaxed and done.

John Horwitz wrote:

I'm not sure what 'Real World' you live in - the clock actually starts when the model puts foot on set. paying for a makeup artist and hair stylist is one thing, paying for someone to sit there and get made up or styled is asinine!

For "real world" gigs I have worked, I have always been paid from call time to end time including time in the chair... The clients simply just negotiated half day to full day rates so it's an all-encompassing thing. No hourly stuff, no staring at the clock.

IDiivil wrote:

Yes, if we agreed upon 2pm and I arrive at 1:50pm, I don't expect you to pay me for the 10 mins. I'll drink some water, use the restroom if I have to, touch up makeup, etc...

This ensures I am absolutely ready at call/clock time.

Granted, here's how I arrive:
1. I will have no lines because I wear dresses without bras/underwear.
2. I generally won't have to use the restroom, eat, etc because I already took care of everything before coming over. The only exception is if I had to drive several hours to get to you. I might have to take literally a minute to go pee then
3. My makeup and everything is applied and ready to go. I might take a look in the mirror to make sure everything is OK, but that's it.
4. I'm not going to take tea, coffee, etc time unless I'm early. If we're near call time, that's something I can do after the shoot so you aren't losing money to me messing around.
5. I like chatting, but I prefer to just get started shooting, so I'm not really that chatty until some point during the shoot when we find our groove, and then after when we are relaxed and done.

So it is exactly how I have learned, expecting and doing for years.

It was sure a misunderstanding when I thought the model meant the clock starts when she arrives or steps in the building. She may have meant otherthing.

John Horwitz wrote:
I'm not sure what 'Real World' you live in - the clock actually starts when the model puts foot on set. paying for a makeup artist and hair stylist is one thing, paying for someone to sit there and get made up or styled is asinine!

This one.  The one on planet Earth, where modeling is my full time job and I shoot multiple jobs a week for clients who will be using the images commercially, and that is the way it it done, every single time, no exceptions.

Here is a short list of people you are free to contact and tell them they are asinine:
Conde Nast Publications
The L'Oréal Group
Nike Inc.
Every modeling agency in the world.
Every working photographer in the world.

Enjoy.

Victoria Elle wrote:
This one.  The one on planet Earth, where modeling is my full time job and I shoot multiple jobs a week for clients who will be using the images commercially, and that is the way it it done, every single time, no exceptions.

Here is a short list of people you are free to contact and tell them they are asinine:
Conde Nast Publications
The L'Oréal Group
Nike Inc.
Every modeling agency in the world.
Every working photographer in the world.

Enjoy.

sure you want to trade street cred with me??? I was shooting models before you were eating dust bunnies in your diapers

John Horwitz wrote:

sure you want to trade street cred with me??? I was shooting models before you were eating dust bunnies in your diapers

Clearly [sarc]

Marcio Faustino wrote:
I think it depends.

When it is requered to model spend a lot of time to be prepered for a photoshoot, specially when there are many modification on hear and body it make sense paying the model for the time she is spending, because she could use this time to work for somebody else if not paid.

But when it is just some basic preparation on make up and outfit no model have ever demand payment. They often come a little bit earlier for it and step on the set on the agreed time about. But of course we stard counting the time when the work starts, no metter if it starts before or after the agreed time.

Again, just like in any job, when you need a big prodution for your performace in a work you are paid for your time of productio. But no job will pay workers while they are in the change room putting their uniforme on, but just once they step in the production secction which is expect to be on the agreeded time.

Sort of.  It does make sense when put this way, but it can become a slippery slope when you start saying it means the model gets paid from foot on set as opposed to call time.  If what you're shooting requires so little prep from the model (basically put down purse, take off clothes, check mirror to make sure hair/make-up looks fine.  All of this can be done in less than 5 minutes), then you are still really paying from call time, because the model should have shown up prepared, and you should have made it clear when discussing the shoot that she should do so.  IF she doesn't, then no, she should not be paid for the time it takes to get prepared.

Things like preparing tea or talking: well, you are her boss.  If you start a conversation with her, she can't very well not respond.  If you offer to prepare her something, she can refuse, but many people actually consider this rude.  If you don't want to pay for the time it takes to do these things, don't initiate them.  Like if you were at a desk job, and your boss came in and struck up a conversation, and then deducted the amount of time that conversation took from your pay.

Toilet: I mean...bodily functions...how long does it really take to pee?  Again, under 5 minutes.  Are these small increments of time really a big deal?  As a model, if I absolutely have to be done at a certain time, I make that clear in my pre-shoot communications.  Otherwise, if we go over by 5, 10, 15 minutes it's not a problem, and I wouldn't charge for it.

John Horwitz wrote:
sure you want to trade street cred with me??? I was shooting models before you were eating dust bunnies in your diapers

Yes.  Because it's important that people know the correct answer to questions, even if it isn't what they want to hear.

John Horwitz wrote:
I'm not sure what 'Real World' you live in - the clock actually starts when the model puts foot on set. paying for a makeup artist and hair stylist is one thing, paying for someone to sit there and get made up or styled is asinine!

I totally agree.

It's not just models.  It goes for everyone in all walks of life.  When I hire a receptionist, I don't pay for time that person isn't answering the phone.  Paying someone to sit there and wait for the phone to ring is asinine. 

Even as a photographer, I only charge for the time when the shutter is open.  If I take 500 photos, I can expect to charge, at my going rate of $150/hour, $0.10 for the 2.5 seconds I'm actually taking pictures.  That's how the real world works.

Marcio Faustino wrote:
For some years I have always start counting the rate time after the model is ready to shoot and I start shooting. No model ever said anything so I always thought it was the right or the standard.

A couple os months later I worked with a model who told me she starts counting the rate time once she steps in the building. I was surprised but it wasn't a problem since I almost always finish the photo session before the time.

So I just want to know what is considered the standard. Or there is no standard, depending only on each model and photographer agreement? May the stardard change depending of the country and culture? So, how is it for you? You start counting the time when you arrive in the plece where you are going to work, when you start to preper yourself to work, or after your preparation is finish and you plus photographer are ready to start the photo shoot session?

I want to know in order to avoid embarrassment on the following photo shoots I will have with models.

While there's no set standard, the norm is that the clock starts when the photographer starts shooting.

Brian Diaz wrote:

I totally agree.

It's not just models.  It goes for everyone in all walks of life.  When I hire a receptionist, I don't pay for time that person isn't answering the phone.  Paying someone to sit there and wait for the phone to ring is asinine. 

Even as a photographer, I only charge for the time when the shutter is open.  If I take 500 photos, I can expect to charge, at my going rate of $150/hour, $0.10 for the 2.5 seconds I'm actually taking pictures.  That's how the real world works.

To add in my experiences as well-

Schools and groups I pose for pay me for a block of time. In the bay area the norm is 20 minutes on, 5 minutes break. Boston and NYC are more like 30-45 minutes on, 10-15 minutes break. However, I'm still "on the clock" when it's time to stretch between poses. That is the norm everywhere- small drawing groups, Harvard, Society of Illustrators, etc etc. If the professor decides to do an hour long lecture during a class I'm posing for, I still get paid the same, and can listen in usually.

The small handful of more commercial/editorial photographic modeling jobs requiring a full team, there is a day rate and a guestimated timeframe to stick to. If you stay much later than expected, you can get paid a bit more. But time getting make up and wardrobe for a specific shoot is part of the job. There have been day long ordeals where I only spent 10 minutes in front of the camera and 6 hours getting make up done.

Individual hobbyist photographers have their own idea of what the norm is, and as a model I can either negotiate, accept, or decline. As Victoria said above, I see no issue with a more "free market" system where individuals set what their standards are. However, I find it unreasonable to not count time in make up if it is for the concept being shot, especially if it is a significant amount of time. But the vast majority of shoots from MM are more along the lines of "come make up ready/ no make up, we will shoot for x hours and be done".

And individual artists... Well, that is a whole other bag full of kittens.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:
While there's no set standard, the norm is that the clock starts when the photographer starts shooting.

This is not true.  We have had hundreds of threads on this subject, you always say this, and you are always told you are wrong.  Please stop spreading misinformation.

Victoria Elle wrote:
This is not true.  We have had hundreds of threads on this subject, you always say this, and you are always told you are wrong.  Please stop spreading misinformation.

Yes, my statement is accurate regardless of your biased views.

You need to STOP spreading misinformation with the assumption that your view on this topic is the only valid one and that only those that agreed with you are right.