Tiffany_B wrote:
You choose to see it as "kind of insulting" or as if it displays a lack of trust, but I personally view it as the photographer (or whoever is handling art direction) wanting to be efficient.

Maybe I see it as insulting because I'm talking about TF shoots.  I should've put that in context in my OP. If I'm not being hired, shouldn't there be a little more leeway for my creative freedom anyway?  You see it as efficient; I see it as micromanagement! Which in my opinion, is inappropriate when money isn't being exchanged.

Tiffany_B wrote:
I also know for a fact that while words like "edgy" or "romantic" or "avante garde" are thrown around that they don't mean the same thing to everyone and seeing wardrobe before a shoot helps to ensure that everyone is on the same page; it's in many cases more effective than or a great addition  to a mood board and in fact this practice has saved me from showing up on set with garments that didn't work

I agree that communicating the concept up front is key.  But if a moodboard has already been provided, why provide pics of outfits which may change in addition to that, and at the last minute?  By the time I can take pictures of the items, I've already acquired them either by a pull or by purchasing, right? So if the photographer decides they don't like them, where does that leave me?

Tiffany_B wrote:
Beyond that how much time does it really take to dress a mannequin and snap a cell phone image?

Haha, a lot!  I don't know when the last time you dressed 12 mannequins (minimum, since I'm doing 8 looks) was, but that's about an hour I could spend organizing or sourcing or doing literally anything else.  Not to mention that either way, a teeshirt carefully styled on a mannequin or on a garment rack is NEVER going to look the same as a live model wearing it and working with the clothing.  Ever.

I don't mean to just rebut or refute your points, but I've taken everything you said into consideration before I've written this post.  Granted, we are in different markets and maybe the overall view of the topic is going to be different, but I don't see any of this as strong enough reasons to think it's MORE efficient to take snapshots of outfits than to just start with good communication and other visual references instead.

Missys Closet wrote:
...I see it as micromanagement!

Melissa, oft said in fashion the devil is in the details... can't begin to tell you how exasperating it is working as a lighting assistant on high end fashion narratives... the amount of planning that goes into assembling a full team is totally immense!  That is what it takes to take a narrative completely over the top... Yes I feel your pain... but trust me you are not alone here... All team members are likely under intense scrutiny by the creative director... It is his/her mission to assure the ultimate success of the session... Just be thankful you are collaborating with a conscientious director who is meticulous with all facets and detail...  Those who question such diligence will soon  find that they are not invited back... You've been warned...

Missys Closet wrote:
Which in my opinion, is inappropriate when money isn't being exchanged...

Melissa, this is so very wrong... And would led many to dismiss you as a liability rather than an asset for their team... This is in effect a display of insolence toward the creative director... The worth/value of a published editorial is absolutely priceless for an emerging talent's book...  I can't begin to count the times I've collaborated on creative tests which have resulted in publication with named credit... An as a licensed makeup artist I'm able to parley these into "Pro Discounts" with many of the leading cosmetic houses... and for up to a 40% discount on product... 

Here is an example of the aforementioned... We are talking a 10 hour day here with a myriad of looks... The entire team worked their panties off getting the visual statement to meet and exceed the magazine editor's vision. 

Another example of a session in which I had to not only provide all the makeup artistry but also the location scouting, and provide lighting assistance... Again, those who go above and beyond are the ones who will rise within the industry...

A presumptuous rant is likely a serious career limiting move...
Hope this makes sense Melissa...

btw, a "can do" attitude goes a long ways in our industry

All the best on your journey Melissa...

KungPaoChic wrote:
The wardrobe brought by the stylist looked nothing like the mood boards. We both hated the wardrobe and I was hoping to submit for an editorial.

The wardrobe was not cohesive at all either.

I normally style all of my editorials and now I know why but it was a good lesson. The shoot was a waste of my time.

Well that's a bummer.  But I think that speaks more to the professionalism (or lack thereof) of your stylist!  On the other hand, do you think maybe communication could've been the issue? Or was that stylist just trying to get their stuff they wanted shot with no regard to your vision?

Thomas Van Dyke wrote:
It is his/her mission to assure the ultimate success of the session... Just be thankful you are collaborating with a conscientious director who is meticulous with all facets and detail...

Again, my point about it being test shoot- You're taking it to another extreme. You're saying there's no leeway when test shoots are collaborative efforts?  Why would I do the gig if my vision can't be inserted anywhere because of micromanagement?  And who defines the session as successful or unsuccessful in this case?

I'm not talking about a client, where if they want to control every detail, they are beyond within their right to.  I'm not talking about a creative director or a magazine editor either.  I'm asking, in the case of what is assumed to be a COLLABORATIVE effort, why can't the details be left to each team member as long as the overall goal is met?  You don't ask the model to send pictures of every pose she will do before the shoot, but you expect her to convey the mood, right?

Also, I never said I "can't do," I just am asking where the benefit is.  Why are you calling into question my work ethic?  I just think there are better, more efficient ways to allocate that time.  And I hardly think I'm making "a presumptuous rant" by asking for other perspectives!  You've all made great points!

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
I wouldn't get offended. But  "trust me" is always a red flag to me.  I would trust you more if I sent swipe of "style" /mood to you and had conversations to make sure we are on the same page.

I agree here.  There should be conversations and confirmation that everyone agrees on.  It's the additional step beyond that I don't understand or really believe in.  If I based my wardrobe selections on that conversation/a mood board, why the extra "security?"

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
If everyone is on the same page, you will end up with a cohesive exciting look.  Assuming some one understands the concept/mood is risky business.

So do you think specific items need to be seen to ensure everyone understands the concept, or can a mood board from the beginning serve this purpose? Because that's where I lean; If we all communicate a point, a professional stylist will bring the garments that work, a professional makeup artist will transform the model appropriately, professional model will convey the mood, and a professional photographer will capture it all.

Missys Closet wrote:
Maybe I see it as insulting because I'm talking about TF shoots.  I should've put that in context in my OP. If I'm not being hired, shouldn't there be a little more leeway for my creative freedom anyway?  You see it as efficient; I see it as micromanagement! Which in my opinion, is inappropriate when money isn't being exchanged.

The fact that you were discussing TF* shoots in particular is definitely something that you should have put into your OP as whether or not someone is being hired versus collaborating should be factored in. However, if you're agreeing to TF* shoots then you need to understand that you're not the only one looking for usable end images and so it's well within the rights of the photographer to ask and well within your rights to refuse.

Missys Closet wrote:
I agree that communicating the concept up front is key.  But if a moodboard has already been provided, why provide pics of outfits which may change in addition to that, and at the last minute?  By the time I can take pictures of the items, I've already acquired them either by a pull or by purchasing, right? So if the photographer decides they don't like them, where does that leave me?

Again I reiterate my point that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to the image issue. I've used images from designers, created quick polyvore sets and even snapped cell phone pics in stores to meet an image requirement. Beyond that if you pulled a piece you could theoretically use it for another shoot and if you're worried about purchasing pieces that may end up unused then ask for a clothing budget (I do this all the time in TF* situations of the model isn't industry standard), the worse anyone will tell you is "no" and then (again) you have the option to walk away.

Missys Closet wrote:
Beyond that how much time does it really take to dress a mannequin and snap a cell phone image?
Haha, a lot!  I don't know when the last time you dressed 12 mannequins (minimum, since I'm doing 8 looks) was, but that's about an hour I could spend organizing or sourcing or doing literally anything else.  Not to mention that either way, a teeshirt carefully styled on a mannequin or on a garment rack is NEVER going to look the same as a live model wearing it and working with the clothing.  Ever.

Honestly, you're making a big deal out of nothing. You're right clothes on a rack or even on a mannequin are never going to look the same way as they would on a live model so it begs the question as to why you'd take the time to dress 12 mannequins (and for a TF* shoot no less!). Here's a bit of free advice: work smart, not hard and if dressing mannequins is an inconvenience for you then don't do it! when there are numerous other options available to you.

Missys Closet wrote:
I don't mean to just rebut or refute your points, but I've taken everything you said into consideration before I've written this post.  Granted, we are in different markets and maybe the overall view of the topic is going to be different, but I don't see any of this as strong enough reasons to think it's MORE efficient to take snapshots of outfits than to just start with good communication and other visual references instead.

You've clearly made up your mind regarding how you feel about this issue (and that's fine), but don't pretend that you want to be enlightened (as per your OP) about why some photographers may make this request when it's clear that you have strong opinions about it that you don't actually want to change. If you honestly can't see the difference between seeing a look put together (even if it's just laid out on a bed) and "other visual references" (which no matter how beautiful or plentiful are not the actual look) then you need to look for shoots where the photographer doesn't require it, it really is that simple especially when no money is changing hands.

Tiffany_B wrote:
However, if you're agreeing to TF* shoots then you need to understand that you're not the only one looking for usable end images and so it's well within the rights of the photographer to ask and well within your rights to refuse.

Well, that's exactly what I think.  Everyone wants to be able use the images from the shoot, myself included of course. So if I bring 12 outfits to a shoot that requires 8, you don't think both needs can be met?

Tiffany_B wrote:
Again I reiterate my point that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to the image issue.

I probably am!  And reading too far into it.  But this is something I've encountered in the smaller market of San Diego/greater LA, and NEVER in New York City. So it's new to me.

Another thing I've found out over the recent years here is that there are stylists who don't even bring the whole looks to shoots.  They just call the models and tell them what to bring.  I've encountered this as a photographer (my primary focus) and it was so frustrating! But nevertheless, I adapted to the situation.

Tiffany_B wrote:
Here's a bit of free advice: work smart, not hard and if dressing mannequins is an inconvenience for you then don't do it! when there are numerous other options available to you.

Ok, so yes, there are other options.  I could lay them out or hang them, plenty of other things.  But this still doesn't answer my main question: Why?

Tiffany_B wrote:
You've clearly made up your mind regarding how you feel about this issue (and that's fine), but don't pretend that you want to be enlightened (as per your OP) about why some photographers may make this request when it's clear that you have strong opinions about it that you don't actually want to change.

A bit combative, but that's common on this platform. 

Tiffany, you're choosing to see it as me being stubborn, but you still haven't supported your reasoning.  I'm a journalist, so when I look at an article, I pull out the 5 W's (and an H).  Who, what, when, where, and WHY.  You're giving me everything but the why. 

We are all just throwing out opinions and perspectives here- that's how MM forums works and thrive!  I hope you have something to add and don't think I'm just trying to shut you down by asking you to elaborate with a "why."

Missys Closet wrote:
Well, that's exactly what I think.  Everyone wants to be able use the images from the shoot, myself included of course. So if I bring 12 outfits to a shoot that requires 8, you don't think both needs can be met?

I think it honestly depends on the shoot and how much input you have from the beginning. Consider that if you agree to TF* and the photographer is working on a series that how much creative freedom you have is going to differ than if you're being brought in so everyone can update their books. Similarly, there is the very real issue that some photographers don't actually know what stylists do and as a result will try to treat us like personal shoppers if we don't speak up. These are all things that need to be figured out before you say "yes."

Missys Closet wrote:
I probably am!  And reading too far into it.  But this is something I've encountered in the smaller market of San Diego/greater LA, and NEVER in New York City. So it's new to me.

Another thing I've found out over the recent years here is that there are stylists who don't even bring the whole looks to shoots.  They just call the models and tell them what to bring.  I've encountered this as a photographer (my primary focus) and it was so frustrating! But nevertheless, I adapted to the situation.

You haven't really adapted if it's still making you feel frantic. Trust me, I know firsthand what it's like transitioning out of a larger market into a smaller one. I currently live some place where stylists are essentially persona non grata at the fashion party because the models don't feel like they need the assistance and many of the "opportunities" are TF* gigs at photo meet-ups which are a mess. It also doesn't help that many stylists act exactly how you describe. One solution is to set up your own shoots and show them how it can be done if you're allowed to stand on your own as a creative force

Missys Closet wrote:
Ok, so yes, there are other options.  I could lay them out or hang them, plenty of other things.  But this still doesn't answer my main question: Why?

The simplest answer is because as a member of the team you're being asked to do something that will (hopefully) help make the shoot go smoother. When I set up shoots I ask models to send me recent images if there aren't any in their portfolio or in cases where they've indicated changing their hair. I've also had photographers send me location images and MUAs send me make-up swatches. This is done even in TF* situations to ensure that we're all on the same page. In return I send images when they're asked for.

Missys Closet wrote:
A bit combative, but that's common on this platform. 

Tiffany, you're choosing to see it as me being stubborn, but you still haven't supported your reasoning.  I'm a journalist, so when I look at an article, I pull out the 5 W's (and an H).  Who, what, when, where, and WHY.  You're giving me everything but the why. 

We are all just throwing out opinions and perspectives here- that's how MM forums works and thrive!  I hope you have something to add and don't think I'm just trying to shut you down by asking you to elaborate with a "why."

You are being stubborn (and that's honestly not a bad thing because we all work differently). The reality is that the process doesn't have to make sense to you personally in order for it to be valid. If a photographer requests something harmless of you for a shoot that you've agreed to work on then you should do it because it's likely going to help make the shoot better (that's likely WHY the request is being made, I swear 99% of the time it's not being done to make your life more difficult or to make you feel like some untrustworthy clothes sherpa). Not everyone can picture a diaphanous teal evening gown, some people need to see it. Conversely, some people just like to be as informed as possible.

Tiffany_B wrote:
You haven't really adapted if it's still making you feel frantic.

So the situation I was referring to was where I was the photographer and brought in a stylist.  It didn't make me frantic at all- at the end of the day, even though the stylist asked the models to bring their own stuff, she executed the original vision and concept anyway.  I put my trust in her and respected that she would get the job done, and even though her method was unconventional, she did.  I'm just asking for that same respect!

Tiffany_B wrote:
You are being stubborn (and that's honestly not a bad thing because we all work differently). The reality is that the process doesn't have to make sense to you personally in order for it to be valid. If a photographer requests something harmless of you for a shoot that you've agreed to work on then you should do it because it's likely going to help make the shoot better.

If styling isn't a source of income, sure, you could say it's harmless.  But when you start really looking at numbers, it makes a difference.  If I have a paid shoot coming up after my test, spending an hour taking pictures of pre-planned outfits for a test shoot instead of factoring that hour into my prep time for the paid shoot is just hurting my wallet.  I don't know that it balances out.

You know, in all of this, no one has asked me what I actually do in this situation.  Fact is, I always say yes!  I preface sending them the snapshots with "it's not going to look the same on a model, just so you know," or "do you mind if I send them the day before?" After 3 years in this market, I'm just now questioning why this is even a practice here, or anywhere else. 

As a photographer, I've never asked a stylist for snapshots of the clothing, nor have I asked for the makeup artist to send swatches.  I just send a moodboard, and say, "can you make it happen, with your own spin, of course?"  And if they're getting paid, I ask, "can you make this happen?" and that's that.  So, as I'm over here taking pictures of outfits for the next shoot to send to the photographer, I'm wondering, why am I doing this?  When do I stop doing this?  What else could I be doing? 

I also have to say, as a stylist, I've never committed to a shoot if I don't feel 100% confident I can execute the look.  That's just irresponsible and unprofessional.

Missys Closet wrote:
So the situation I was referring to was where I was the photographer and brought in a stylist.  It didn't make me frantic at all- at the end of the day, even though the stylist asked the models to bring their own stuff, she executed the original vision and concept anyway.  I put my trust in her and respected that she would get the job done, and even though her method was unconventional, she did.  I'm just asking for that same respect!

You can't expect everyone else to do things the way that you do them and/or take it as a sign of disrespect when they don't, well you can, but it's not actually productive.

Missys Closet wrote:
If styling isn't a source of income, sure, you could say it's harmless.  But when you start really looking at numbers, it makes a difference.  If I have a paid shoot coming up after my test, spending an hour taking pictures of pre-planned outfits for a test shoot instead of factoring that hour into my prep time for the paid shoot is just hurting my wallet.  I don't know that it balances out.

This is irrelevant from the perspective of the people that you're working with. Regardless of whether you're shooting TF* or being paid for the work, it's something you freely agreed to do and if it doesn't balance out for you that really is a personal issue that you need to address. This isn't meant to be harsh, it's just the reality of the situation. As a ghostwriter I get requests from friends to read their work or edit it and if I have a paying client that I have to handle something for I tell my friends that I can't or that I don't have time at the moment; similarly when I have work scheduled I don't go out seeking new in depth projects because I know I won't be able to commit to them fully. Think about it this way, when someone is looking at your work they're not able to tell what's TF* and what you got paid for (the exception to this is if your work is being used for a recognized brand in their ads) and as such you should strive to do whatever is reasonable to make the images look their best.

Missys Closet wrote:
You know, in all of this, no one has asked me what I actually do in this situation.  Fact is, I always say yes!  I preface sending them the snapshots with "it's not going to look the same on a model, just so you know," or "do you mind if I send them the day before?" After 3 years in this market, I'm just now questioning why this is even a practice here, or anywhere else.

If you ultimately send the images anyway then I really have to question the point of all of this. I know what you're saying your point is, but based on this it seems like you just wanted to rant (and I get that, some days are like that).

Missys Closet wrote:
As a photographer, I've never asked a stylist for snapshots of the clothing, nor have I asked for the makeup artist to send swatches.  I just send a moodboard, and say, "can you make it happen, with your own spin, of course?"  And if they're getting paid, I ask, "can you make this happen?" and that's that.  So, as I'm over here taking pictures of outfits for the next shoot to send to the photographer, I'm wondering, why am I doing this?  When do I stop doing this?  What else could I be doing?

Do you 1) realize that not every photographer knows how to make a mood board? 2) that just because you do something one way doesn't make it the right way and 3) that different projects may require different levels of planning? I'm not an MUA or a hairstylist so when I'm setting up a shoot I trust the people I'm working with to do their jobs BUT I also ask questions because I don't want to be surprised the day of the shoot e.g. if the model I'm planning to shoot with is black and the MUA I'm talking to only has white models, I will ask if they have examples of work on models with darker skin. Similarly, I've had MUAs send me swatches because once they've seen the model the direction of the make-up may need to change. No one has to do these things obviously, but I appreciate it when they do.

You don't have to take the gigs where the photographers ask you to take images beforehand. If snapping images of clothes pre-shoot fills you with such a clear sense of ennui then just don't do it. There are other options.

Tiffany_B wrote:
If you ultimately send the images anyway then I really have to question the point of all of this. I know what you're saying your point is, but based on this it seems like you just wanted to rant (and I get that, some days are like that).

Must be it.  Thanks for your time Tiffany!

Missys Closet wrote:
Well that's a bummer.  But I think that speaks more to the professionalism (or lack thereof) of your stylist!  On the other hand, do you think maybe communication could've been the issue? Or was that stylist just trying to get their stuff they wanted shot with no regard to your vision?

The difference was that I was not familiar with the stylist and I was not controlling the shoot. I did it as a favor for the makeup artist. She brought the stylist. Maybe there could have been better communication but I don't know the wardrobe could have deviated so far from the moodboard.

But it was a valuable lesson. I am never giving up control again on an editorial or creative unless I am being paid.

I would prefer to style myself than not get what I want. I usually plan the editorial based on the wardrobe then I get the right model and figure out location.

If all the pieces of the puzzle don't fit then I don't get anything usable.

If you don't want to provide photos of the wardrobe you don't have to but it sounds like you should just decline the shoot.

Missys Closet wrote:
Hi MM Stylists and Photographers!

What's everyone's take on asking a stylist to send pictures of outfits before a TF shoot?  I've had photographers ask me to take pictures of all the things I'm bringing to the shoot before shoot date.

Um, hard to say but doesn't seem like a big deal. Photographer says "let's style direction XYZ, do you have pieces like that?" and the stylist can send some quick snaps. Just to see if everyone's idea of "XYZ" is the same. Sorta like trading inspo shots with the MUA.

KungPaoChic wrote:
Maybe there could have been better communication but I don't know the wardrobe could have deviated so far from the moodboard.

Just an FYI this happens far more often than you may think. And there are a myriad of factors that could be at play many of which might have been beyond the control of the stylist e.g. the pieces she planned on pulling were accidentally sent elsewhere and/or one of more key pieces came back damaged, the sizes she was given were amended last minute and/or there was a model swap, vague wording was utilized and/or the moodboard contained very specific looks that couldn't be feasibly sourced for whatever reason, she was provided with a budget too late or not at all, the pieces that were requested were off season and/or not trending...I could go on.

As a matter of personal experience I know just how easily it is for the moodboard to become moot. A few years back I had a local photographer contact me about shooting. His work was stellar, I thought the model was beautiful and we even drove out to see the location which was amazing. We collaborated on the moodboard and he even had story boards mocked up to block the shoot. All of this careful planning came to a screeching halt when the hairstylist went rogue. The model went in to meet him and for a pre-shoot consult (the plan was to shoot some place with no electricity so he needed to know what he could feasibly do without it based on her hair type or whether it would be necessary for her to come into his shop that morning), and he decided to offer to do her hair.  I'm not sure of the conversation between them but the end result was a slight cut (no issue there) and a color (which was a major issue since he dyed it a very vibrant shade of purple). Suddenly, the model looked very different, and while I suggested finding another model we'd also need to find another hairstylist (this would be no big deal in NYC but it's ridiculously difficult in Bethlehem, PA) so the photographer tried to adapt. The original moodboard needed to be scrapped and along with it went all of the energy and excitement of the shoot which was ultimately canceled after weeks of prep work and even looking into different wardrobe options.

In your case could this have been a matter of the stylist over promising and under delivering or her simply wanting to shoot what she wanted? Sure, but there are other possibilities.

I'm just sorry that it turned you off so thoroughly from working with stylists on TF* shoots (at least that seems to be the case based on your statement "I am never giving up control again on an editorial or creative unless I am being paid. ") because I don't think that a good TF* is about giving up control, it's about collaboration and I personally love it when everyone can just come in and play the creative role they're meant to play.

Mortonovich wrote:
Um, hard to say but doesn't seem like a big deal. Photographer says "let's style direction XYZ, do you have pieces like that?" and the stylist can send some quick snaps. Just to see if everyone's idea of "XYZ" is the same. Sorta like trading inspo shots with the MUA.

Just an FYI not every stylist has a huge closet of pieces and even if they do they may not be in line with what every photographer wants in the moment e.g. I can style more avante garde looks but I don't have things like paper dresses hanging in my closet (I've made them before but they were meant to fit the models for a single shoot and recycled afterwards). Personally, I'm not going to pull, purchase or create pieces to photograph them on my mannequin just so a photographer can see if I can but I'm also honest about what I have access to and once we've worked through theme etc. and the gig is secure I have no problem sending looks as they're pulled, purchased or assembled. I think a better analogy to trading inspo shots with the MUA would be going over/creating a moodboard unless you're asking the MUA to show you the exact looks that he or she will be doing the say of the shoot.

KungPaoChic wrote:
I would prefer to style myself than not get what I want. I usually plan the editorial based on the wardrobe then I get the right model and figure out location.

Stylists are meant to enhance your shoot, just like each "piece of the puzzle" or other crew member.  You don't find it limiting just to say, "I don't work with a stylist, ever?"  You know there are many agencies who will not work with you or allow you to test with their models if you don't have a stylist.  May be something for you to consider if you plan on shooting models or celebs professionally.

As a photographer, I'm always fighting to find a stylist to work with.  But in San Diego, they're  a hot commodity because there are so few.  So I guess the appreciation for stylists changes depending on the market!

Tiffany_B wrote:
I'm just sorry that it turned you off so thoroughly from working with stylists on TF* shoots (at least that seems to be the case based on your statement "I am never giving up control again on an editorial or creative unless I am being paid. ") because I don't think that a good TF* is about giving up control, it's about collaboration and I personally love it when everyone can just come in and play the creative role they're meant to play.

+5,000

I understand the photographer wanting to assume complete control because that's role we naturally fall into (I'm saying that as a SoCal photographer), but in my experience in the bigger markets (NYC), stylists are usually at the helm of a shoot and assume the role of creative directors.  I mean I'm strictly talking about fashion here.

But anyway, I agree, TF shoots should be about collaboration and no one team member should have a white-knuckle grip of their single interpretation of the concept.  It should be agreed upon.  It's a compromise.

Missys Closet wrote:
So I guess the appreciation for stylists changes depending on the market!

+1

The local photography culture plays a huge role in whether or not stylists are appreciated. In some markets (my current locale being one of them) the general consensus is that the model can provide their own clothes and/or the photographer will have clothes or the MUA or hairstylist may bring something and because the resulting shots are okay, they don't see the value in a stylist who can make the shots so much better by ensuring things like proper fit, better quality, or more creativity. Additionally, there are the control freaks the ones who want to be in charge of absolutely everything and my feeling is if wardrobe is going to be dictated down to the last stitch then someone doesn't need me, they just need time to shop. /end rant.

Mortonovich wrote:
Um, hard to say but doesn't seem like a big deal. Photographer says "let's style direction XYZ, do you have pieces like that?" and the stylist can send some quick snaps. Just to see if everyone's idea of "XYZ" is the same. Sorta like trading inspo shots with the MUA.

I think what I'm trying to get across is that it's NOT the same as trading inspo shots with an MUA.  I don't feel like the extra step past "do you have pieces like that" is necessary for a TF.  You don't ask an MUA to send you the brand names of their makeup or physical samples of the products they use, right? 

If I didn't have pieces like whatever inspo shot we agree on, then I wouldn't agree to do the shoot because I can't confidently convey the concept. Maybe a lot of photographers in our market have been scarred by less-than-professional stylists who promise more than they can deliver.  But for a simple test shoot, I can't fathom why a photographer would need to specifically see what pair of blue jeans and white tee shirt I anticipate using! If I say, "I can come up with outfits similar to this style, with slight changes in color or fit, but will match the overall mood," then are you saying you don't think that's enough?

I would like to know from the community if there's a solid reason, based in fact (not speculation), as to why it's considered acceptable here.  Again, I haven't encountered this in my years as a stylist in NYC, so why is this a bizarre quirk here in San Diego (or other places where this happens)?  Also, I haven't said flat-out no to this request, but I feel that I may be justified in the future in saying, "no, I won't send you these snapshots, I'm honestly short on time, but I promise I will bring XYZ plus options."  For a TF shoot, is that really a deal breaker?

Mortonovich wrote:
Missy- Maybe give No Ties a call and see what photographers are testing with them
these days. Contact those photographers and see about working with them.

Funny you mention that!  I actually haven't pursued working with No Ties as a stylist- I've been trying to get them to add me as one of their test photographers! We'll see how that goes.

But I bet they don't let their girls test without a stylist

Missys Closet wrote:
Again, I haven't encountered this in my years as a stylist in NYC, so why is this a bizarre quirk here in San Diego (or other places where this happens)?

Because this isn't New York. You know how there's not really a big surfing scene in New York, and the one that is there is just different from California? Same idea. If you are expecting the fashion scene in San Diego to be anything even remotely similar to New York, you will be sadly disappointed. WTF do you see when you are walking around San Diego? Flat bills, cargo shorts, Teva sandals . . .  C'mon, different markets.

Missys Closet wrote:
Also, I haven't said flat-out no to this request, but I feel that I may be justified in the future in saying, "no, I won't send you these snapshots, I'm honestly short on time, but I promise I will bring XYZ plus options."  For a TF shoot, is that really a deal breaker?

Personally no, it wouldn't bother me at all.


Hit up No Ties.

Tiffany_B wrote:
Personally, I'm not going to pull, purchase or create pieces to photograph them on my mannequin just so a photographer can see if I can but I'm also honest about what I have access to and once we've worked through theme etc. and the gig is secure I have no problem sending looks as they're pulled, purchased or assembled. I think a better analogy to trading inspo shots with the MUA would be going over/creating a moodboard unless you're asking the MUA to show you the exact looks that he or she will be doing the say of the shoot.

Also a big 'ole +1

I genuinely think there have just been stylists who have promised more than they can accomplish, and it has saturated the market with photographers who don't trust that stylists can get the job done. 

Professionals should NEVER agree to do something if they know they don't have access to the necessary things for completing the mission (sorry, but I'm a Marine so I think mission accomplishment all the time).

It's rare to have the MUA do the makeup on the model, let's say, the day prior to the shoot or earlier just to show that they can do it.  It's a waste of their product, right?  So if we consider my time my product... well, I just think it could be better used by going out shopping/sourcing/organizing/calling designers/packing/etc.

Again, since I don't view styling as a source of income, I do provide snap shots when asked because it doesn't hurt anything (besides my ego).  But I've never had anyone say anything other than, "looks great!" after they receive them, so it makes me wonder why I spent that hour doing it in the first place!

Mortonovich wrote:
C'mon, different markets.

Yes, they are different markets!  But that's part of my point- in NYC, where large fashion productions happen, I actually think this would be a logical practice.  Here, in San Diego, if you're asking me for swimsuits and shorts and sandals, I mean, why do you need to see snapshots of that?

It's still not making sense to me!  This is why I think it's more insulting than anything- if you can't trust that I can provide casual coastal looks, then why try to work with me?  Just as I'm confident in my ability to provide the looks, I am also confident in the photographer to capture the looks, as well as the MUA and model.  Of course, until proven otherwise!

Mortonovich wrote:
C'mon, different markets.

Missys Closet wrote:
Yes, they are different markets!  But that's part of my point- in NYC, where large fashion productions happen, .....

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. The longer you do this, the longer you will be "insulted".

It's like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLo7tHDHgOc
"$50.00 bucks! No, no, no. This is a Rochefoucauld, the
thinnest water-resistant watch in the world.
Singularly unique, sculptured in design,
hand-crafted in Switzerland
and water-resistant to three atmospheres.
This is THE sports watch of the 80's.
$6,955.00 retail."

"Got a receipt?"

"Look, it tells time simultaneously
in Monte Carlo, Beverly Hills, London,
Paris, Rome and Gstaad."

"In Philadelphia, it's worth $50.00 bucks."


But I'm also going to throw it out there that you are not working with the more fashion oriented photographers
in San Diego (because there aren't many.) Hence my suggestion to see who is testing at No Ties. Or hit up Bang Truong, Emily Soto . . .

Mortonovich wrote:
You're trying to compare apples and oranges. The longer you do this, the longer you will be "insulted"....

But I'm also going to throw it out there that you are not working with the more fashion oriented photographers
in San Diego (because there aren't many.) Hence my suggestion to see who is testing at No Ties. Or hit up Bang Truong, Emily Soto . . .

I think we deviated a bit from the OP.  Are you saying because they are different markets, my time is less valuable? Or that there are different practices?  Because I understand that... but it still doesn't tell me why it (it being the practice of asking for snapshots of outfits from the stylist) happens.

Why exactly am I "hitting up" Bang Truong and Emily Soto (love her work) again?  Isn't she in NYC?

Missys Closet wrote:
I think we deviated a bit from the OP.  Are you saying because they are different markets, my time is less valuable? Or that there are different practices?  Because I understand that... but it still doesn't tell me why it (it being the practice of asking for snapshots of outfits from the stylist) happens.

Why exactly am I "hitting up" Bang Truong and Emily Soto (love her work) again?  Isn't she in NYC?

To test with them, shoot stuff to submit, etc.

Mortonovich wrote:
To test with them.

Ok, so we definitely deviated from the OP.  I'm not soliciting advice for who to work with, but thank you for offering it.  I don't want to jump down the rabbit hole and get this thread locked for jumping off topic.  If you would like to PM me some of the names of photogs you suggest- you did say there were a few, though not many fashion-oriented artists in SD- please feel free to.

But you did somewhat answer my question earlier when you said it wouldn't be a deal breaker is a stylist declined providing snapshots.  I would love to hear why you think this way if you have the time!

Missys Closet wrote:
And photographers, why do you feel it's necessary? I personally don't see the point, but enlighten me!

**And tell me why you think this is a good/bad/whatever practice please!***

It’s not necessary, at least not for me, but it certainly can be helpful.

Missys Closet wrote:
Tiffany, you're choosing to see it as me being stubborn, but you still haven't supported your reasoning.  I'm a journalist, so when I look at an article, I pull out the 5 W's (and an H).  Who, what, when, where, and WHY.  You're giving me everything but the why.

She gave you the why, or at least two supporting explanations for why, in her very first response to you. You can choose to ignore it or not agree with it, but she certainly made an effort to explain to you why the practice is done by some:

Tiffany_B wrote:
I've learned that wardrobe choice may affect things like light set up, the usage of gels, backdrops etc. and the more prepared everyone can be before the shoot the better. I also know for a fact that while words like "edgy" or "romantic" or "avante garde" are thrown around that they don't mean the same thing to everyone and seeing wardrobe before a shoot helps to ensure that everyone is on the same page

Agreed. If the person in charge of clothes (stylist, designer, model, whoever) says “I’m bringing a little black dress,” these are some of the things the photographer might think about ahead of time in his/her shoot planning:
Long or short dress? If short, then hose or no? If hose, dark or nude? If dark hose with black dress, then shoot (and thus light) the cream couch, not the chocolate leather armchair where the garments would just get lost.
Sleek material? Need a painted muslin backdrop set up or a background with texture for contrast and offset.
Ribbed material? Not the exposed brick location that would compete for attention. Hang monocolor seamless. Oblique lighting to enhance the texture; softer kicker to avoid blowing out the detail. Group with other “Location C” garments in shoot progression.
Strapless? If yes, then strapless bra? If yes, then is it going to leave back band marks? If yes, then are those marks going to be there when we shoot the backless top? If yes, then do we need to adjust the shoot order?

If the photographer has a snapshot of the little black dress, then s/he can have answers to some of the above questions ahead of time, and plan accordingly, potentially reducing the time to set or reset, and possibly increasing the chance of successful photographs.

Missys Closet wrote:
I don't know when the last time you dressed 12 mannequins (minimum, since I'm doing 8 looks) was, but that's about an hour I could spend organizing or sourcing or doing literally anything else.

I would love to have my prep time (props, backgrounds, lighting, location, shoot plan and blocking) for a TF shoot down to an hour.

AgX wrote:
She gave you the why, or at least two supporting explanations for why, in her very first response to you.

Ok, then I didn't see it.  If you could pull the quote that would be helpful.

AgX wrote:
Agreed. If the person in charge of clothes (stylist, designer, model, whoever) says “I’m bringing a little black dress,” these are some of the things the photographer might think about ahead of time in his/her shoot planning:
Long or short dress? If short, then hose or no? If hose, dark or nude? If dark hose with black dress, then shoot (and thus light) the cream couch, not the chocolate leather armchair where the garments would just get lost.
Sleek material? Need a painted muslin backdrop set up or a background with texture for contrast and offset.
Ribbed material? Not the exposed brick location that would compete for attention. Hang monocolor seamless. Oblique lighting to enhance the texture; softer kicker to avoid blowing out the detail.

I'm on the same page with this.  Which is why I try to provide all of these details prior to the shoot.  I actually go above and beyond and typically have an itemized list before I go to a shoot anyway!

Not to mention, I'm also a photographer, so I'm also thinking about the background, texture, lighting, etc.  But even if I weren't a photographer, a professional stylist is thinking of these things too.  That's nothing new.

If you show me a picture of a standard test as a reference photo, you plan on shooting on [X] backdrop, and I say, "I'm bringing a tank top with a similar silhouette in black, heather gray, and white, a similar style of shorts which are distressed and in indigo blue, and a pair of chunky black platform heels similar to [X], then does that suffice?  Why or why not?