D a v i d s o n wrote:
First rule to buy a car at a delearship is to do it all by phone don't go in until they have the papers ready to sign and the vehicle ready and drive away, in one afternoon I could save you easy a years worth of payments or thousands of dollars if you pay cash. I myself have plenty of money but I don't just give it away.

i don't have any money, because i enjoy spending it on dumb shit i don't need.
speaking of dumb shit, only an inexperienced sales person would waste their time on the phone with a hypothetical deal. Theres too many "what if's"
You sound like an annoying customer, the kind with unreasonable demands.

if i was a salesperson and someone wouldn't come in to see the product; i'm not going to consider them a serious buyer.
also dealerships don't want cash and won't give you a better price for cash.
they make money off of financing too. they'd prefer you finance.

Based on my experiences, I have a feeling I know a lot more about vehicle sales than you.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:

i don't have any money, because i enjoy spending it on dumb shit i don't need.
speaking of dumb shit, only an inexperienced sales person would waste their time on the phone with a hypothetical deal. Theres too many "what if's"
You sound like an annoying customer, the kind with unreasonable demands.

if i was a salesperson and someone wouldn't come in to see the product; i'm not going to consider them a serious buyer.
also dealerships don't want cash and won't give you a better price for cash.
they make money off of financing too. they'd prefer you finance.

Based on my experiences, I have a feeling I know a lot more about vehicle sales than you.

Well that's your opinion, but if you don't even adhere to the idea to negotiate a deal your out of the deal. I don't your back ground or your age but its painful to see someone so naive...

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
FUCK YOU!

Only problem is, the place low balling me is a company I want to work for.
They offered me a job but brought up entry level pay.
So, I had to email them back and politely tell them to go fuck themselves and remind them i'm not entry level.
They had me work there for one day as a test, and I kicked ass. Apparently they forgot?

Or maybe they didnt forget....
Because the dude just emailed me back right away, and seems to want to work something out.
Why is he responding to a work email so late at night?

I hate low ballers.
negotiating is stupid and a waste of time.

.
Also,...
CL is the worst for this
Once some dude came to my house to buy something and then offered me less because he had driven from somewhere kinda far to buy it. I told him, I dont give a fuck where you came from. I dont have to eat your travel cost.

Why the fuck do people have this mindset?

/rant

at least one of my model-y friends just called me and asked if she could come over. im in a better mood now.
thanks MM!

I like your rant... I never say what you have but the same thing goes through my mind and I wish I could say it.  I just smile and say sorry but I am busy the dates that you requested.
I WISH I could just say fuck you very much. damn that felt good.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
also dealerships don't want cash and won't give you a better price for cash.
they make money off of financing too. they'd prefer you finance..

You completely missed the point. The customer saves thousands of dollars (even if they give you the base price) by paying cash.

And my father used to stop in to two dealers that weren't too far from each other, make sure they both knew he was talking to the other, tell them what he wanted and then ask them to sort out their best price and he'd call later. He'd call them each 3 or 4 times over a few days until he had the best price he could get and they said they had the paperwork all ready.

Then he'd go in, tear up the finance contract and pay with AMEX.

At least once, the dealer lost money.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
You completely missed the point. The customer saves thousands of dollars (even if they give you the base price) by paying cash.

And my father used to stop in to two dealers that weren't too far from each other, make sure they both knew he was talking to the other, tell them what he wanted and then ask them to sort out their best price and he'd call later. He'd call them each 3 or 4 times over a few days until he had the best price he could get and they said they had the paperwork all ready.

Then he'd go in, tear up the finance contract and pay with AMEX.

At least once, the dealer lost money.

Cash, you mean currency?  I was in the car business for nine years.  I sold over a thousand new cars and I was also a sales manager.  There is no incentive whatsoever for a dealer to take cash for a new car.  Everyone knows about IRS regulations that require registration of large cash transactions and in my state, and probably every other state with a sales tax, the individual car sale transactions with the exact amount of the sale have to be filed with the sales tax in order to transfer the title to the car.  There is no way to cheat.  Unless you want to be easily caught.   I would often get people throwing 40 or 50 thousand dollars in cash on my desk like I'm going to sell them a $65,000 BMW for a $20,000 discount just because they have a bag of cash.  It's a myth. 

Another myth is the idea that "thousands of dollars" can be saved using magic negotiating tactics.  On an average car that costs about $35,000, the dealer profit after discounts is somewhere in the 1,500-2000 range.  The difference between a good deal and a bad deal is usually about 500-1000 dollars.  Unless you decide not to shop around at all and declare this to the dealer.

Dealers do have the opportunity to make more money on a car when the customer finances it.  Usually half a point to a point and a half.  I also never heard of a dealer allowing a customer to put a new car transaction on a credit card.  Usually it's capped at about $1000 so you can put a deposit down.   We often had people hoping to put a $40,000 transaction on their miles card.  Sorry, no dice.

MN Photography wrote:
Cash, you mean currency?  I was in the car business for nine years.  I sold over a thousand new cars and I was also a sales manager.  There is no incentive whatsoever for a dealer to take cash for a new car.  Everyone knows about IRS regulations that require registration of large cash transactions and in my state, and probably every other state with a sales tax, the individual car sale transactions with the exact amount of the sale have to be filed with the sales tax in order to transfer the title to the car.  There is no way to cheat.  Unless you want to be easily caught.   I would often get people throwing 40 or 50 thousand dollars in cash on my desk like I'm going to sell them a $65,000 BMW for a $20,000 discount just because they have a bag of cash.  It's a myth. 

Another myth is the idea that "thousands of dollars" can be saved using magic negotiating tactics.  On an average car that costs about $35,000, the dealer profit after discounts is somewhere in the 1,500-2000 range.  The difference between a good deal and a bad deal is usually about 500-1000 dollars.  Unless you decide not to shop around at all and declare this to the dealer.

Dealers do have the opportunity to make more money on a car when the customer finances it.  Usually half a point to a point and a half.  I also never heard of a dealer allowing a customer to put a new car transaction on a credit card.  Usually it's capped at about $1000 so you can put a deposit down.   We often had people hoping to put a $40,000 transaction on their miles card.  Sorry, no dice.

thank you for confirming everything i said!

The first car I ever financed, the sales person had the best close (to me).
Earlier that day I told him "i dont care if you make a little money". He remembered this.
After the test drive when we were working out the deal, I asked him to shave a few bucks off to make it a nice even number.
he said with perfect timing: "i thought you didnt care if i made a little money?"
Being a man of my word, I stood up and shook his hand.
"yes, i did say that."

Another car I have, I bought at a snooty European car dealership.
They had a rare car I wanted, and didnt want to discount. (which is pretty much the situation everytime i buy a car.)
I simply told the sales lady I didnt disagree with their asking price. I just wanted to see the price change, i didnt care by how much. I told her it was just a psychological thing, to make me feel like I won.
She went to the sales desk, they knocked off $500. I thanked her, and shook her hand.
They shoulda just knocked off $1. I told her I didnt care about the money.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
You completely missed the point.

I don't think i'm the one that missed the point.

Caitin Bre  wrote:
I like your rant...

Thanks. I like your... butt. lol

MN Photography wrote:

Cash, you mean currency?  I was in the car business for nine years.  I sold over a thousand new cars and I was also a sales manager.  There is no incentive whatsoever for a dealer to take cash for a new car.  Everyone knows about IRS regulations that require registration of large cash transactions and in my state, and probably every other state with a sales tax, the individual car sale transactions with the exact amount of the sale have to be filed with the sales tax in order to transfer the title to the car.  There is no way to cheat.  Unless you want to be easily caught.   I would often get people throwing 40 or 50 thousand dollars in cash on my desk like I'm going to sell them a $65,000 BMW for a $20,000 discount just because they have a bag of cash.  It's a myth. 

Another myth is the idea that "thousands of dollars" can be saved using magic negotiating tactics.  On an average car that costs about $35,000, the dealer profit after discounts is somewhere in the 1,500-2000 range.  The difference between a good deal and a bad deal is usually about 500-1000 dollars.  Unless you decide not to shop around at all and declare this to the dealer.

Dealers do have the opportunity to make more money on a car when the customer finances it.  Usually half a point to a point and a half.  I also never heard of a dealer allowing a customer to put a new car transaction on a credit card.  Usually it's capped at about $1000 so you can put a deposit down.   We often had people hoping to put a $40,000 transaction on their miles card.  Sorry, no dice.

The money saved is in finance charges.

And you'd be amazed what you can put on an AMEX Platinum.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
The money saved is in finance charges.

And you'd be amazed what you can put on an AMEX Platinum.

AMEX platinum is nothing special, just a piece of plastic.
Speaking of finance charges, unless you paid it off in full that month, theres a finance charge on a credit card.
Also you pay an annual fee on that card.
So how is that saving money?

If someone saved $35,000, (for most people that takes some time) it makes more sense to spend about $70 a month in finance charges to keep your chunk of cash. Its stupid to blow the whole wad on a car just to save about $4000 over the next 5 years.

When you buy something on a credit card the company youre buying from pays a fee.
Usually 1 to 3 percent. Most dealerships won't accept a deal where the customer wants to pay by credit card because its not profitable. Dealerships in the USA usually will only accept up to $5000 on a credit card.

If a dealership allows a sale to be paid by credit card then its likely that the vehicle was very inexpensive; just a few thousand bucks, or it was very profitable deal for the dealership and they still made money after the paying credit card fees.
Or maybe the bank wavied the fee for the dealership?

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Then he'd go in, tear up the finance contract and pay with AMEX.

At least once, the dealer lost money.

No, they didn't.
Perhaps you think your Dad is more badass than he is?
Most of us do think that about our Dads.
Do you really think the dealership had to say:
"Yes, Mr. Dickhead, who just tore up the contract you asked us to spend time making for you, after you showed no loyalty to our company by also working a deal with our competitor, we must sell you this car. We have no choice."

No. they could of told him to fuck off after he tore up the contract he asked them to make.
They don't owe him shit.
If he actually did that, what a dick move on his half.
First he goes and asks two companies to compete for his business, then the one who works the hardest for him, he goes and changes the terms at the last minute in an attempt to rip them off?
Giant fucking asshole. Sounds like a person of poor character and no values.

The irony being that people think they're getting ripped off at car dealerships, when they're the ones trying to rip off the dealership.

If you buy something a profit is made by the seller.
Otherwise their business would fail, and the economy as well.
Whats wrong with supporting local businesses?

Al Lock Photography wrote:
The money saved is in finance charges.

That's a separate transaction and has nothing to do with the concept of negotiating a deal, which is what this discussion is about.  The dealer is not going to take a lower profit on the sale of a new car because someone is not financing it, that's the point.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
AMEX platinum is nothing special, just a piece of plastic. I think i had one of those when i was younger.

When you buy something on a credit card the company youre buying from pays a fee.
Usually 1 to 3 percent. Most dealerships won't accept a deal where the customer wants to pay by credit card because its not profitable. Dealerships in the USA usually will only accept up to $5000 on a credit card.

Platinum limit is entirely based on what AMEX places it at. I know people who have bought $1 million dollar yachts with one.

What dealers will do all depends on how much they need to move stock. My father did exactly what I described ever 4 years for more than 30 years.

Oh, and AMEX isn't a credit card.

MN Photography wrote:
That's a separate transaction and has nothing to do with the concept of negotiating a deal, which is what this discussion is about.  The dealer is not going to take a lower profit on the sale of a new car because someone is not financing it, that's the point.

If you don't think financing is part of the deal and the negotiation, you will be losing money fairly often.

Most American dealers finance through finance companies that are owned by the auto companies.

Al Lock Photography wrote:

If you don't think financing is part of the deal and the negotiation, you will be losing money fairly often.

Most American dealers finance through finance companies that are owned by the auto companies.

I don't know if you have bought a car in the US in this century, but most of the time, and I'd say all of the time except you can always find exceptions to things, the sale of the car and the financing are negotiated separately in different offices by different people.  They are two different transactions.   Whether or not the financing is done through the manufacturer's finance company (which is also a separate corporation and is legally treated like a bank) or a bank doesn't matter much to the dealer.  The dealer can mark up a loan from GMAC just like they can with a bank.   

The exception to this might be when a manufacturer has a financing incentive like 0% interest.  But it is not GMAC that is giving away the interest for free, it's GM that buys the loan down.  0% percent interest deals are always accompanied by a cash rebate alternative if you don't finance with GMAC.  It's an advertising gimmick.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Platinum limit is entirely based on what AMEX places it at. I know people who have bought $1 million dollar yachts with one.

I didn't say anything about the spending limit. i was referring to the amount of payment a dealership will allow with a credit card.
If someone drops a cool mil on a yacht then i'm sure there was enough profit in that sale to make up for any finance fee.
also safer for the seller to not risk loosing a million dollar item if the deal falls through with the financing bank.
customer comes in with a way to spend a million on an expensive ass boat? cool. take the deal!

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Oh, and AMEX isn't a credit card.

really?

this thing:

https://www.americanexpress.com/us/cred … /platinum/

then what the fuck is it?

Al Lock Photography wrote:
My father did exactly what I described ever 4 years for more than 30 years.

He buys a car on a credit card every four years? ...and I thought I had an addiction to cars and debt.
Does he have a bunch of cars or he changes cars that often?
That seems unreasonable, even to me.

I bet all the dealership know him and his game by now.
They probably talk to each other and be like:
"hey did whats his face come in, said he was shopping around?"
"ya he came in here too, I knew he was going to tear up the contract again so i just put some blank papers on the desk, he ripped them up, didnt even read them, then took out his credit card again"

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
The irony being that people think they're getting ripped off at car dealerships, when they're the ones trying to rip off the dealership.

Ha, people love to tell heroic stories about how they beat the dealer at their own game.  One of the biggest challenges I'd run into selling cars would be when a customer would refer a friend and then the friend would want to also get the totally made up fantasy deal that their friend told them they got for themselves.

There are always exceptions.  At the end of the model year, there were usually some left over cars in ugly-ass colors that no one wanted and dealers will blow those out for no profit.  And yeah, if someone negotiates a deal for a car with a much higher than average profit margin and makes it contingent on taking their credit card, if the bottom line is still good, then the dealer will take the CC.  The rule is not defined by the exceptions though.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:

really?

this thing:

https://www.americanexpress.com/us/cred … /platinum/

then what the fuck is it?

It's a credit card, but it's not a revolving credit card.  That's why almost no one uses them anymore.

MN Photography wrote:
It's a credit card, but it's not a revolving credit card.  That's why almost no one uses them anymore.

Actually, it's a charge card. There is a difference.

Btw, last time my father did that was 2 years ago. He passed away late last year. He was a retired CFO and ran his own company where corporations could hire him (and a few other like him) when they needed CFO expertise and connections. I'm going to bet that he knew a lot more about financing, debt and how to buy something than a car salesman.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
I'm going to bet that he knew a lot more about financing, debt and how to buy something than a car salesman.

i'm going to bet that a car salesperson knows a lot more about how to sell his type of person a car.

Al Lock Photography wrote:

Actually, it's a charge card. There is a difference.

Btw, last time my father did that was 2 years ago. He passed away late last year. He was a retired CFO and ran his own company where corporations could hire him (and a few other like him) when they needed CFO expertise and connections. I'm going to bet that he knew a lot more about financing, debt and how to buy something than a car salesman.

Maybe.  At a BMW dealership, every day, we would deal with CFOs, CEOs, attorneys, bond traders and all kinds of people who thought they were pretty clever.   We knew what we needed to know to make a profit at what we did.  I don't remember making too many deals that didn't benefit the dealership in some way.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:

i'm going to bet that a car salesperson knows a lot more about how to sell his type of person a car.

I doubt it. My father had 80 years experience buying cars and was friends with the CEOs of every major US auto firm (as well as a couple of the Japanese and German ones).

Typical auto sales person is easy to out negotiate. They haven't been doing the job that long, they think they are really good at their job, and they think they know everything about it. Look at your own responses.

MN Photography wrote:

Maybe.  At a BMW dealership, every day, we would deal with CFOs, CEOs, attorneys, bond traders and all kinds of people who thought they were pretty clever.   We knew what we needed to know to make a profit at what we did.  I don't remember making too many deals that didn't benefit the dealership in some way.

How many dealerships go out of business every year?

3,000?

Something like that.

Seems someone is making deals that don't benefit the dealerships.

Al Lock Photography wrote:

How many dealerships go out of business every year?

3,000?

Something like that.

Seems someone is making deals that don't benefit the dealerships.

Ha, OK.  That's a reach.  Thousands of home builders went broke during the housing crisis because they didn't know how to build homes or negotiate individual deals.  Too many clever buyers hoodwinked them at something they did everyday.  Donald Trump also went broke in his casinos because individual gamblers were too smart for him.

I'm not even going to look up that 3,000 per year stat.  I'm guessing that comes from 2009 when GM and Chrysler downsized.  Totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Al Lock Photography wrote:

I doubt it. My father had 80 years experience buying cars and was friends with the CEOs of every major US auto firm (as well as a couple of the Japanese and German ones).

Typical auto sales person is easy to out negotiate. They haven't been doing the job that long, they think they are really good at their job, and they think they know everything about it. Look at your own responses.

Ha ha.  Great stuff.  This is why I read the forums.  I'm not in middle school anymore, so I can't regularly hear remarks like this from people.  Keep it coming.

Al Lock Photography wrote:

I don't know what imaginary world you live in, but not you or anyone else are going to talk a business into giving up a product for a loss thats going to result in their financial ruin.

The real art is managing peoples' expectations and perception.

For example maybe your father thought he was tough swinging his dick around a car dealership every four years, making them work for his business and tearing up the contracts they worked on and then buying the car on a charge card. Trying to change agreements at the last minute like a jerk.
He probably thought he was some clever macho man king of car buying, out negotiating everyone and stealing cars from them.

Thats his perception, and yours.

Bottom line is, theres a million more customers just like him. Same attitude and tactics they come in to buy a car everyday and the sales people know how to work with them.
If he bought a car every four years, then hes a good repeat customer. He probably traded in a nice condition used car too, which they can resale for profit.
Does it hurt the dealership to stroke this guys ego, make him feel like he out negotiated them? No.
At the end of the day a sale is made for profit.

I don't know why you said 3000 dealerships go out of business every year in the USA. I assume you pulled that figure out of your ass. i found an article from 2008 when the economy crashed, that said 700 were estimated to go out of business in 2009. 430 went out of business the year before.

That mostly had to do with banks and credit, and how your fathers friends managed their auto firms' finances.
It was not because customers convinced weak sales people that the dealership should give away cars to them.
That would be beyond ridiculous.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Seems someone is making deals that don't benefit the dealerships.

It's usually the CEOs, CFOs, and whatnot more than anybody else ;P

Piscis Noctis wrote:

It's usually the CEOs, CFOs, and whatnot more than anybody else ;P

Ha, exactly.  GM didn't have a crisis because dealers kept getting swindled trying to sell Pontiacs.