Wigs and Makeup Allison wrote:
Saying MUAs are head-strong and selective in hearing is both rude and a gross generalization.
As far as I am concerned, you are the one who is out.

I said can be head-strong and selective in hearing. I could also have said photographers can be head-strong and selective in hearing. Both statements would be equally accurate. I didn't say all were so afflicted.

I do believe my point about MUA and their selective hearing has been adequately proved!!

PS - I like your avi.

Yosh Studio wrote:
Perhaps you could post some examples of your team experiences (images) you are referring too. Like a mood board of your work that you can consider clean & natural or no-makeup?

This is the exact question that needs to be asked of MUA's before they're hired on for shoots that require this type of make-up...

K I M I L Y wrote:
There's nothing combative about my shoots but I note that you chose to ignore my reference to 'reasonable influence' in order to portray my agenda as something else. I'm afraid that kind of monkey business means I would never engage you on any kind of shoot, TF or otherwise. The whole team needs to pull together in a common endeavour, managed by the photographer [or the client's AD], and not be railroaded by someone who seems to think they have a superior mindset. So, I'm afraid, you're OUT!

Considering that there's an entire ocean separating us it's unlikely that our paths would cross, but thank you for your response because it serves in making my point about your attitude and the way in which you're approaching the process of a TF shoot (which again is what this particular thread was based on) because while you mention the need for everyone to work together toward a common goal, that's difficult to do when one person already has negative assumptions about the way other members of the team may or may not behave based on past experiences with other individuals in those roles.

Eagle Rock Photographer wrote:
SOMEONE should be in charge.

"Many Captains and the ship goes on the rocks." -- Japanese proverb

I don't think that there's any dispute about someone needing to play point but the purpose of a TF shoot is for everyone involved to get something usable.

Tiffany_B wrote:
Considering that there's an entire ocean separating us it's unlikely that our paths would cross, but thank you for your response because it serves in making my point about your attitude and the way in which you're approaching the process of a TF shoot (which again is what this particular thread was based on) because while you mention the need for everyone to work together toward a common goal, that's difficult to do when one person already has negative assumptions about the way other members of the team may or may not behave based on past experiences with other individuals in those roles.

My decisions regarding individuals are always based on how they conduct themselves. In your [albeit hypothetical] case it was because you manipulated what I said to suit your dogmatic and self-centred argument. Believe it or not it had nothing whatsoever to do with anything some random third party may or may not have said or done in the past. In my judgement you would be a disruptive element in a team partly due to the misrepresentation/trust issue but more significantly because you clearly do not respect the photographer's responsibility to manage the successful outcome of a shoot for all the participants, not just you.

K I M I L Y wrote:
My decisions regarding individuals are always based on how they conduct themselves. In your [albeit hypothetical] case it was because you manipulated what I said to suit your dogmatic and self-centred argument. Believe it or not it had nothing whatsoever to do with anything some random third party may or may not have said or done in the past. In my judgement you would be a disruptive element in a team partly due to the misrepresentation/trust issue but more significantly because you clearly do not respect the photographer's responsibility to manage the successful outcome of a shoot for all the participants, not just you.

It is within your rights to make assumptions about me being dogmatic or self-centered or disruptive on set but the reality is that you have never actually worked with me. Additionally, if you read through my responses in the thread nowhere will you see anything relative to me stating that a shoot needs to solely be beneficial to one party (whether it's myself or someone else), but instead I have maintained a statement of the opposite.

You said that you engage the MUA yourself rather than use one the model already knows or is tasked to find so that you can have some sort of influence over them (yes you used the term reasonable as a caveat but that's subjective). You also said that MUA's can be very head-strong and selective in their hearing...but the reality is that you're displaying similar behavior by asserting that I "clearly do not respect the photographer's responsibility to manage the successful outcome of a shoot for all the participants, not just you. which isn't a statement you can factually make because we have never worked together, if we have you'd know first hand that even in situations where I'm handling the AD in addition to styling that I defer to the other creatives I'm working with in their areas of expertise so if a photographer tells me a shot would look better with __________, or if a hairstylist informs me they need extra time because of ___________, or if a model says a garment is pinching her, or if (bringing it full circle) and MUA mentions a model needs more color or different colors I respect them doing their thing and I hope they respect me doing mine because we all need the shot. I may not coddle models who whine about not liking a particular piece of clothing, or who are upset because the lipstick isn't in a shade they like, and I certainly don't kowtow to photographers like they're magical beings who know more than everyone else on set, but those things don't exclude me from being a team player when it's a team I've committed myself to being on.

Tiffany_B wrote:
It is within your rights to make assumptions about me being dogmatic or self-centered or disruptive on set but the reality is that you have never actually worked with me. Additionally, if you read through my responses in the thread nowhere will you see anything relative to me stating that a shoot needs to solely be beneficial to one party (whether it's myself or someone else), but instead I have maintained a statement of the opposite.

I didn't say you were dogmatic or self-centred on set! What I said was that your argument in this thread is dogmatic and self-centred. This thread, right from the very start, is essentially a rant fuelled by people who seemingly didn't get what they wanted during a shoot. I guess most of us have cause to let off steam at times but what this rant tells me is that certain people are likely to be disruptive, either on set or post shoot, if they do not get what they want. The very existence of this thread is proof of that if nothing else.

Tiffany_B wrote:
You said that you engage the MUA yourself rather than use one the model already knows or is tasked to find so that you can have some sort of influence over them (yes you used the term reasonable as a caveat but that's subjective). You also said that MUA's can be very head-strong and selective in their hearing...but the reality is that you're displaying similar behavior by asserting that I "clearly do not respect the photographer's responsibility to manage the successful outcome of a shoot for all the participants, not just you. which isn't a statement you can factually make because we have never worked together, if we have you'd know first hand that even in situations where I'm handling the AD in addition to styling that I defer to the other creatives I'm working with in their areas of expertise so if a photographer tells me a shot would look better with __________, or if a hairstylist informs me they need extra time because of ___________, or if a model says a garment is pinching her, or if (bringing it full circle) and MUA mentions a model needs more color or different colors I respect them doing their thing and I hope they respect me doing mine because we all need the shot. I may not coddle models who whine about not liking a particular piece of clothing, or who are upset because the lipstick isn't in a shade they like, and I certainly don't kowtow to photographers like they're magical beings who know more than everyone else on set, but those things don't exclude me from being a team player when it's a team I've committed myself to being on.

The thing is Tiffany it's irrelevant to me whether we've met or worked together. When you're pulling a team together, whether it be for photography or for something else entirely, you often do not have much to go on when making decisions about people. As a result you become much more attentive to the things people say, the way they say them, and, sometimes, the things they don't say, in order to get a feel for how well they will fit in and cope. After a while you get pretty good at making those judgements. It's an essential skill to have.

So, I will continue to make my decisions and my shoots will go ahead with the people I have chosen. All I will ever know is that my shoots are successful, everyone got on pretty well, did their thing, stretched themselves as individuals within a bigger team and, perhaps most importantly, we're all smiling beacause we achieved something. But I can also be pretty sure I won't have an individual ranting online because she didn't get what she wanted, thereby tainting it for everyone else. If decisions need to be made I will make them and I don't need anyone moping around, looking sour or creating a scene because my decision wasn't what she wanted.

If you feel I've judged you badly I'm afraid that's of no consequence to me - I have no reason to look back and wonder whether I got it right or wrong. I've already moved on, so should you.

"


I guess there is no need to cry over spilled milk.  How to avoid this in the future:  Send all parties involved a style sheet of looks you want to create.  Make sure everyone is one the same page before you go forward.  Good communication lends itself to a successful session.  If I'm creating a retro 1930's hollywood glamour look, I certainly don't want the hair to be styled in a beehive or the MUA to apply 1970's style make-up.

Eagle Rock Photographer wrote:
SOMEONE should be in charge.

"Many Captains and the ship goes on the rocks." -- Japanese proverb

In general, no one who believes that a cliche settles anything should be in charge of anything. If you have a REASON that someone at a shoot should have absolute authority, then at least attempt to explain it.

People who know anything about real world leadership generally say that it is strongly situational; a single captain is a good idea for a ship... But a shoot is not a ship - it's more like a rock band. Dumbing this down all the way; single leadership is the answer in situations where one person has more expertise than anyone else or when decisions are critical and need making quickly. Multiple creative works better when people are specialists, have divergent interests, and there is time to talk through decisions.

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
I guess there is no need to cry over spilled milk.  How to avoid this in the future:  Send all parties involved a style sheet of looks you want to create.

To the extent that every makeup colour is pre-agreed? That's a huge amount of bureacratic overhead. As much as it seems to confuse people here, I think asking the model for her opinion and talking to her is more practical..

Eg

"Why not this colour?"
"I'm doing this shoot for my own satisfaction and I hate that colour. I want the blue."
"Well, it would be a big help to me. How about we do both colours?"

Budhi Malu wrote:
So the model is in it for her ego, rather than her it being her work. I would never book her again.

Aesthetic satisfaction and ego are two different things. And the reason was probably quite different.

Again, if you ask someone to do something and they say no, ask WHY!