Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
I've been a model for about 8 years now, both figure art and photography.  I began about 8 months ago to attempt working the other side of the lens as a photographer.  Lately I've been getting very serious about my photography and put out a casting call for a TFP project I have an idea for.  I actually had the idea when I was modeling a bit more as well as being a musician. I've received a few messages of interest and actually had two models tell me I they wanted to shoot with me on the project.  To top it all off I will be traveling to their location and booking some studio  space for the shoot.

Here's my gripe.  After several message exchanges and me requesting they confirm the shoot I have heard virtually nothing from them.  It's getting crunch time and I don't want to book until I receive confirmation.  I've relayed that information to them and have heard zilch back.  I've shot TFP. I"ve paid models.  And I have had some work where I've actually been paid.  Under any of these circumstances I've treated my photography very professionally and have been told so by everyone I've worked with.

I'm getting a bit frustrated that I'm not even given the courtesy of being notified these models have changed their minds and decided the shoot wasn't for them.  Is this normal that photographers sometime's get blown off without any notification?  I model and I've only been late to a gig once, due to a major Atlanta traffic jam.  If I can't make a gig I definitely let who has hired me know as soon as I know.  And I definitely don't take a gig unless I'm willing to pose.  Most of my work is in the art studio world but I also treat photo modeling the same way.

Sorry to rant a bit but I'm getting a bit of a bad taste trying to get photo models into the studio after they have shown interest.  Tell me this situation is not unique?

It's not unique. It's the Model Mayhem life.

Victoria Morrisa wrote:
Until both parties have confirmed, the shoot isn't set-in-stone. If they aren't replying to you anymore, then they aren't interested.

But what is frustrating is that both models showed interested. We followed up with several messages explaining the shoot and messages expressing their enthusiasm.  Then nothing.  I would rather have a firm non commitment than nothing.  That just seems to be common courtesy.

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:

But what is frustrating is that both models showed interested. We followed up with several messages explaining the shoot and messages expressing their enthusiasm.  Then nothing.  I would rather have a firm non commitment than nothing.  That just seems to be common courtesy.

Have you never experienced this behavior from photographers, as a working model? It's not uncommon - even to get to a point where you are discussing a specific day and time to shoot, then they drop off the face of the earth and never finish negotiations? Sometimes civilian clients wanting family photos are flaky too, and some have been extremely late, though they do show up eventually.

It's not about which side of the camera you are on. Flaky people are flaky.

Garry k wrote:
If they have stopped communicating - I would move on

Good consistent communication is essential to a shoot

( not overcommunication though )

this

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
But what is frustrating is that both models showed interested. We followed up with several messages explaining the shoot and messages expressing their enthusiasm.  Then nothing.  I would rather have a firm non commitment than nothing.  That just seems to be common courtesy.

Oh, believe me you, photographers have been complaining about this for years.  There used to be a rampant of threads/posts about models out of the blue, stopped communicating.  No explanation. 

Getting frustrated here is like getting frustrated in LA traffic.  It's fruitless.  Pick your passes and go at speed when you can, knowing you'll probably get slowed down by some asswipe driving slow on the fast lane.

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
But what is frustrating is that both models showed interested. We followed up with several messages explaining the shoot and messages expressing their enthusiasm.  Then nothing.  I would rather have a firm non commitment than nothing.  That just seems to be common courtesy.

It shows two things.
YOU act very professional, probably in everything you do.
THEY don't.

Unfortunately this is MM and it's a new generation that only thinks about themselves and are too f__king lazy to reply even if it's to politely decline.

The problem is growing even outside of the photography/modeling world.

I used to try to bring them to their senses by sending a follow up note regarding the importance of communication, but that's futile so now I just block 'em and move on.

The block isn't just to keep them from contacting me, but in case I forget it also keeps me from offering them anything in the future so I won't be wasting my time.

MoRina wrote:
For all the ways we have to communicate these days, it seems that some people just can't get the hang of being considerate and professional. 

That said, if this issue continues to happen, maybe a bit of self-analysis is in order.  Some things that have been a turn-off for me to want to shoot with someone are

   *  too much detail and communication before ever setting a shoot date/time/pay rate
   *  avoiding answering specific questions
   *  flirting, talking shit about other models/photographers, bragging, or being difficult to communicate with
   *  texting at inappropriate hours or too many texts
   *  asking too much personal information or sharing too much personal information unrelated to the shoot

Honestly, for the most part I tell people that I am no longer interested, but sometimes when you can tell it's going to cause all sorts of drama, I just stop answering. It's not my job to tell people how to act right.

I'm truly interested in the first point - "too much communication".  What would your definition be of too much communication be.   I looked over the message exchange and don't think I've over-communicated at this point. 

I think I've got the other points covered.  Although there is an artistic intimacy the photographer and model in shooting nude or implied I understand that this is a business for everyone involved I consider myself a professional, whether modeling or photographing.  I have never had an issue with a model and each one has always pointed out how great a shoot it was and how comfortable they felt while shooting.

I may be nitpicking a bit but my time and energy in setting up a shoot is valuable. I've learned from both sides of the lens that creating quality images is hard work both pre and post shoot.  I guess, through continual experience, I'll have to get used to unprofessional behavior from some people.  It's still disappointing, however.

Maybe I should stick to self-portraits.  If I can get such beautiful images like you have on your port I wouldn't need any outside models.  :-)

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
I'm truly interested in the first point - "too much communication".  What would your definition be of too much communication be.   I looked over the message exchange and don't think I've over-communicated at this point.

For me, over communication tends to follow this pattern:

The Over Communicator wrote:
Greetings, I love your style and look, in particular these ten images I adore for various reasons, (listing all ten images and reasons in detail), but I wouldn't want to shoot any of those with you, but rather here's my idea of you holding a bird cage. Why a bird cage? I was antique shopping with my friend, who loves to go antique shopping with me, as I do with her. She was looking for a baby carriage, although old baby carriages are not safe for babies, and you really should get a modern one to protect your baby, that is if you have a baby or grandbaby, how old are you? But you aren't interested in baby carriages, right? So anyhow, I saw this hamster cage at the antique shop, and I asked the older lady who owns the shop, gorgeous grey hair pulled up, and I'd guess her hair if down would reach her butt, not that I was checking out her butt, but just her hair, can a hamster cage already be an antique? When did people start having hamsters as pets? She didn't know, but the price she quoted was too much for a hamster I didn't have. I was wondering if she had any old bird cages. To which she asked what sort of bird I had. Well, I never had a bird. I like African Grays because they are so smart, but their cages would be too large for my shoot, so, I told her maybe something for a love bird. Oh? She wanted to know the color of my love bird. I wasn't sure. I love the green ones, but the blue ones are more unique, don't you think? The yellow ones are called canaries by too many people, so I'd avoid a yellow love bird, or would just get a canary if I wanted a yellow bird, right? So anyhow, she shows me this fantastic ornamental bird cage. I loved it! But then I noticed, it was not a proper bird cage. The bottom was not flat. It formed a cone, and how would you place newspaper on the bottom of the cage like that? Then it dawned on me, I don't have a newspaper subscription. Would I need to get one if I bought the bird cage? So, that's more expenses I hadn't planned on for this shot. Then I saw the price tag! My goodness! That was a lot of money for an old cage that had no practical use being a bird cage. So I was thinking, rather than a bird cage, I could photograph you nude against white seamless in my garage or basement. Please let me know right away, some lady here at the thrift shop is eying the white bedsheet I thought I'd use instead of that expensive paper.

Sometimes no reply is a reply.

Eric212Grapher wrote:

Deep Visions wrote:
If you're gonna rent a studio then hire a professional model.

Agency represented.

Eric212Grapher wrote:

The Over Communicator wrote:
Greetings, I love your style and look, in particular these ten images I adore for various reasons, (listing all ten images and reasons in detail), but I wouldn't want to shoot any of those with you, but rather here's my idea of you holding a bird cage. Why a bird cage? I was antique shopping with my friend...

I've moved on by this point.

Eric212Grapher wrote:
...
For me, over communication tends to follow this pattern:
...

lol.
To me, that isnt communication. To use a crude phrase, thats just verbal diarrhea .
noone wants that ;->

Deep Visions wrote:
If you're gonna rent a studio then hire a professional model.

I'm coming to the inclusion that if I want to get my project off to a start that may be the way I have to go.  I'm trying not to exceed a budget on this shoot but sometimes I guess you have to bite the bullet.

Victoria Morrisa wrote:
Until both parties have confirmed, the shoot isn't set-in-stone. If they aren't replying to you anymore, then they aren't interested.

But here's my beef.  Yes, it appears they are not intereested in shooting but why say you are interested and follow up with several messages showing enthusiasm and then just stop?  My call was pretty straight forward in what I am trying to accomplish with my project and the type of shoot I'm planning.  No surprises.  My portfolio represents the style of photography I present.  I guess I just have to get used to it, alas.  It still seems very unprofessional.

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
But here's my beef.  Yes, it appears they are not intereested (sic) in shooting but why say you are interested and follow up with several messages showing enthusiasm and then just stop?

Because the world does not conform to our expectations of what should happen.

Don't get me wrong - what you describe is annoying as Hell and only wastes everybody's time. In a perfect world this would never happen but we do not live in that world.

Perhaps the model responded out of curiosity but when it came time to finalize the details she chickened out. Perhaps she is too timid to directly tell you she doesn't want to do the shoot anymore. Perhaps something came up in her personal life. Perhaps she lost interest. Perhaps something in the communication put her off. It could be any number of things.

I do not know if you are holding casting calls or directly messaging models but I prefer casting calls. That way I will have multiple inquiries and I only have to post the initial details once. I also try to have either an in-person meeting with the model or at least a phone conversation because in my experience once this type of contact has been made and we are now "more real" to each other the likelihood of being ghosted diminishes.

In any case, this will not be the last time you will be ghosted. It happens. You can only move on because your time is better spent on your photography and not wondering why someone else stopped responding.

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
But here's my beef.  Yes, it appears they are not intereested in shooting but why say you are interested and follow up with several messages showing enthusiasm and then just stop?  My call was pretty straight forward in what I am trying to accomplish with my project and the type of shoot I'm planning.  No surprises.  My portfolio represents the style of photography I present.  I guess I just have to get used to it, alas.  It still seems very unprofessional.

Interest in a shoot isn't the same thing as committing to complete a shoot. If they haven't confirmed, then you two are just talking.

If someone doesn't reply to your message and you see that they've read it, you can assume that they don't want to do the shoot. When a person is serious, they will commit and make it happen. It won't be difficult to reach them.

LONDON Fashion wrote:
The only difference is they're getting paid vs. not.

Yes, it's absolutely  unprofessional.

But seems to be the way things are.

i've had a similar thing happen to me multiple times. not for free shoot, but  "low paying" shoot.
Both times, the (different) model sent me a message, around 24 hrs before the shoot,
"just making sure, the rate is (x), right?"

then around 8-4 hours before they are supposed to show up, "oh i'm sorry my dog died/car broke/yaddayaadyadda".

LONDON Fashion wrote:
As a result, I will not pay for a studio if I'm working with a TFP model I've never worked with before. I will only go to free locations, for the first shoot anyway. I will also let them know two things in advance:

1) I ask that if they agree (at this point, a week or so in advance) to do the shoot, that they not cancel last-minute unless it truly is an emergency.

2) I will ask for their phone number, and let them know I will text or call them the day before the shoot to confirm. If I am unable to get ahold of them prior to needing to leave for the shoot, I will cancel the shoot... and will not be attempting to re-schedule..

Thanks for the advice.   It appears my expectations need to evolve.

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
To top it all off I will be traveling to their location and booking some studio  space for the shoot.

As you probably already inferred from the posts above, you are not getting special treatment.

After being burned a few times, these days the farthest I travel for a new model is from my studio to the railway station to pick her up on arrival (and I am happy to drive her home afterwards.)

There is no way in the world that I would both travel to a model not already known to me and outlay money on studio hire.

The good news is that you will gradually get better at spotting the no-shows from their behaviour because there are usually subtle tell-tales.  In the last five years, I have had only two no-shows.  One was a prankster who was very convincing (including voluntarily confirming the night before) but who eventually got herself kicked off the hosting website (not MM).  The other was a paid shoot with an agency model who, despite confirming that morning, decided to take a better-paying gig (so try not to take too much comfort from a model's having agency representation - I have found no greater reliability among agency models than free-lancers.)

Philip Brown wrote:
then around 8-4 hours before they are supposed to show up, "oh i'm sorry my dog died/car broke/yaddayaadyadda".

Your experience is close to universal, so I am amazed that insurance companies have not noticed that most models are disaster magnets and adjusted premiums accordingly.

Spicy Peach Photography wrote:
I've been a model for about 8 years now, both figure art and photography.  I began about 8 months ago to attempt working the other side of the lens as a photographer.  Lately I've been getting very serious about my photography and put out a casting call for a TFP project I have an idea for.  I actually had the idea when I was modeling a bit more as well as being a musician. I've received a few messages of interest and actually had two models tell me I they wanted to shoot with me on the project.  To top it all off I will be traveling to their location and booking some studio  space for the shoot.

Here's my gripe.  After several message exchanges and me requesting they confirm the shoot I have heard virtually nothing from them.  It's getting crunch time and I don't want to book until I receive confirmation.  I've relayed that information to them and have heard zilch back.  I've shot TFP. I"ve paid models.  And I have had some work where I've actually been paid.  Under any of these circumstances I've treated my photography very professionally and have been told so by everyone I've worked with.

I'm getting a bit frustrated that I'm not even given the courtesy of being notified these models have changed their minds and decided the shoot wasn't for them.  Is this normal that photographers sometime's get blown off without any notification?  I model and I've only been late to a gig once, due to a major Atlanta traffic jam.  If I can't make a gig I definitely let who has hired me know as soon as I know.  And I definitely don't take a gig unless I'm willing to pose.  Most of my work is in the art studio world but I also treat photo modeling the same way.

Sorry to rant a bit but I'm getting a bit of a bad taste trying to get photo models into the studio after they have shown interest.  Tell me this situation is not unique?

Welcome to Model Mayhem!  Trust me, oh trust me!  I know your frustrations all too well.  But that's the way things are it seems here.  Got a project?  Go get your modeling needs from an agency.  That's what it seems like you need to do these days unfortunately.  These bad models are ruining it for the good ones.

Isaiah Brink wrote:
Welcome to Model Mayhem!  Trust me, oh trust me!  I know your frustrations all too well.  But that's the way things are it seems here.  [snip]  These bad models are ruining it for the good ones.

The scenario is not unique to MM, it occurs over all social media.