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Communicating With Models
I curious to see what others have experienced in terms of communication with models. I reach out to models with a concept for a shoot. They say they are interested, they pick a time, then nothing. For days. What's going on with that? When you encounter this do you keep messaging them, or just move on? Do people not see messages? Forget? Are they just unprofessional? Photography is a hobby for me, so I have a real job, and this lack of communication would be unacceptable in my work. I've actually found that the best models are 17 because their moms communicate, and they will sure as hell be there... Jul 25 18 10:24 am Link photography_by_matt wrote: why don't you ask in the General Industry or Photography Talk forums, especially if you are seeking answers from photographers? Jul 25 18 11:23 am Link Here are several reasons I have dropped communications with photographers/artists: 1. I ask for specific details: time date place pay, they reply with what color dress they want me to purchase for the shoot. 2. They are unprofessional: bad typos, confusing grammar, flirty, rude, general assholishness 3. LONG essays of word vomit that takes me longer to read then actually do the shoot 4. I'm booked up with putting together jobs that are paying me $$$ & they only want to pay me $. 5. MM message system is borked & I never got the email. 6. MY email box is borked & I never got the email. 7. I asked them several times to NOT use MM messaging system & send me a direct email instead. 8. I'm traveling & on the road, I have limited access to internet & all messages are running late. 9. Eh, general malaise about the proposed project 10. I forgot, it happens Jul 25 18 12:11 pm Link photography_by_matt wrote: The $50,000 question. Jul 25 18 01:21 pm Link photography_by_matt wrote: I come across many flaky models here, but I have to ask: Once the shoot is booked, why do you expect them to contact you? Did you request a confirmation from them in that timeframe? Jul 25 18 01:30 pm Link This is a complicated shoot. It’s underwater, and requires a lot of people. I’ve coordinated this very well, and am trying to keep over 20 people up to date with the latest information, and set up a schedule that works. These models were really excited, or they seemed to be, but now aren’t returning messages. And I’m not sending creepy messages, I just want them to commit to a time so I can put them on the schedule. Now they suddenly got called into work, even on the alternate days and times I offer. I just think it’s rude and unprofessional to say you’re going to do something, and when you reach out to offer more information as far as the event goes, that ignore Jul 25 18 02:33 pm Link photography_by_matt wrote: This seems to be a recurring theme on MM. It's very frustrating. There's nothing worse than a model stating they want to schedule, actually getting down to available dates and times, you end your search because negotiations are being made, and then nothing. I'd say it is very unprofessional. As a new photographer I've run into this several times. But I'm learning that it is the nature of the beast. I would much rather get a "sorry, I've thought about it and I don't think I'm interested in the shoot anymore" than total silence. Jul 25 18 02:50 pm Link What really gets me about this is that this affects a lot of people. A shoot like this takes a lot of people to pull off, and then to just lose interest and then say you can’t go, is not right. If work may potentially be an issue, then say that on the front end. Work was never mentioned until it came time to select your slot. A lot of work has gone into this shoot, and the models literally have done nothing but send a few messages, and now they just walk away... Jul 25 18 02:56 pm Link OP, I feel your pain but MM isn't a site for professional models. I would suggest if you aren't paying the models (you didn't say) that you do shoots that aren't as complicated. Underwater does sound complex and as you've said requires a lot of people. Try a simple session and use the models who are dependable from that one. Consider offering rides if they need one and again money if you can pay. Years past I attended a workshop where models were being paid and you guessed it last minute several didn't show. I have assisted pro shooters who have had agency signed talent simply not show for paid shoots. These were models the client chose and the photographer, MUA and stylist didn't either. At least it doesn't sound like you've set everything up and your models didn't show. While I just mentioned no show agency talent I looked at your work and I will suggest you reach out to some of the agencies in your area. What you are attempting requires reliable talent. Perhaps one agency or more will have new models up for the challenge and in need of some new work. Jul 25 18 03:15 pm Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Sound advice from Tony for working with independent Models which for Me has worked most of the time, but then there are those times.. Jul 25 18 04:12 pm Link photography_by_matt wrote: On the balance of probabilities, this is the most likely answer, but some other possibilities occur to me. Jul 25 18 04:57 pm Link When people have nothing invested or nothing to lose, they're more likely to flake. It happens in all aspects of life. People today have very short spans of attention and will, by default, move on the the next thing that comes along, regardless if anyone else is hurt, loses out or is in some way maligned. The really bad part is those messing others over don't care. They have no compunction about wasting the time of others unless they will be inconvenienced on some level, like money. I've seen where models and photographers alike have demanded a down payment or retainer of sorts before they'll book with someone. I see the value in it, while many will cry about not having the funding or whatever. I do it every time I reserve the date for a couple getting married. No downpayment, no contract. For me it's not personal, it's business. It makes sure my time isn't wasted on people who are not serious. I've had people continue to search for a cheaper photographer and then believe I'll refund their money just because I'm a nice guy. When people then come back and say they found someone cheaper or whatever, I say I'm glad for them but according to our contract, the down payment is lost if they don't cancel with a prescribed time (required by law.) Amazingly people almost 100 per cent of the time find themselves happy again once they're told they will lose the money they've put forward already. They have something invested and something to lose, is the point. Move on and create amazing with with someone worthy of your time and talents. Jul 25 18 05:00 pm Link I'm curious, are you paying them? Because it's not a professional relationship if you aren't. Life happens man. My experience is if you hire a model (meaning pay her) she shows up. And communicates, because she wants her money. If this TFP, and it sounds like a big shoot to be TFP, then flakiness is escalated exponentially. Aug 07 18 08:52 pm Link Until recently I've been fairly lucky, Lots of no replies, even after "yeses" but most of the time when a shoot is scheduled the model has communicated with me, although there have been lots of cancellations. The past month though has been really frustrating. I thought about posting here, not because I wanted advice, I just wanted to rant in a relatively safe space with people who could commiserate. Aug 07 18 10:48 pm Link and yeah, I think it is a generational thing. Ghosting someone is about as rude a thing as I can think of, but for those who grew up in this social media world it is apparently acceptable. There is no real personal interaction, so it is easier for them to just move on than to have to deal with you as an actual person. Aug 07 18 10:50 pm Link You don't credit your models. 1) Prospective models have to go through you for references. 2) You are not helping your models to network. Aug 08 18 10:56 am Link Try reaching out to a traveling model who does this for a living (and charges $100 or more an hour). You will find her communication to be extremely responsive and professional. ;-) Now try communicating with local models looking to do TFP. Now you'll encounter what you have described. (Not all, but many.) Many local (non-traveling, non-professional) models have requested that I text or email them, because they do not log onto ModelMayhem very often. While this is inconvenient, if I really want to work with them, I'll oblige. So, if it's someone you really want to work with, find out what is the best way to get in touch with them to plan a shoot. Aug 08 18 11:09 am Link Randy Dixon wrote: That is a fascinating theory, in my experience the ability to "ghost" is the best thing to happen to communication ever. Aug 08 18 12:05 pm Link Ionalynn wrote: If you have stated that you don't wish further communication, that is not ghosting. I know from talking to models and just women, that what you are describing happens on social media a lot as well, and yes, I think it is part of the same problem, it is one of the results of not really feeling the person on the other end of the communication is a real person. Aug 08 18 12:22 pm Link I'll start by saying that I pay models. I add credits for any model that wants. I have models who have written nice things about me on my profile. I routinely have models not show up or call after we have scheduled a specific time. Or they let me know an hour before that they are not going to show up, but never apologize (it's just a courtesy - you don't have to mean it). I now book 2-3 models in hopes one will show up. I've had 5 "cancel" in the past 2 weeks (cancel actually means ghosting me). Even more strange is that nearly all of them describe themselves on their profiles as "professionals" who show up on time. I thought using MM would let me avoid the flaky behavior of models found on Craigslist, but I guess not. The ones who do show up are very professional, come on time or tell me in advance they'll be late (and apologize) and are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. I do often work with them more than once, but I do like different looks Aug 09 18 04:51 pm Link I can't keep up with you youngsters. It used to be "flaking" now it's "ghosting"? Aug 09 18 06:22 pm Link The issue is not in communication its self, the issue is failure to understand levels of communication and networking. If you're sending out messages & casting calls, you're cold calling, that has a very high flake to fulfillment ratio. After messaging a dozen different people, you finally get 1-2 models to work with, then you go right back to cold calling again. Get out of cold calling do more effective networking: Ask the models you get to show up to refer other models they know of. If each model you work with gives you 2 names, you'll be busy for life. Attend events, people took the time & effort to show up, they are MORE likely to show up to your studio. Reshoot the great models, even if you only reshoot 1 of 10, it will keep your shooting calendar full. As time goes on, those models might have new & different friends to refer you to. If you constantly use several methods of communication, & networking you wont have to rely of cold calling & always getting the higher ratio of flakes & non serious people. Aug 09 18 06:37 pm Link Ionalynn wrote: Good Suggestions Aug 10 18 02:44 am Link Garry k wrote: I agree and the trap I fell into. Aug 10 18 03:26 am Link Eleven 11 Photography wrote: I have to disagree that it's not a professional relationship if the models is not being paid. There an numerous ways a model can be compensated, the most peeve land one being images for her portfolio. To a new model, this is probably one of the most important, too. Images have a value. The time, equipment used, education and experience all had a cost at some point. To demean them by saying it's not professional to provide quality, well-honed services, just pay, means photographers bring nothing of value to the table. Aug 10 18 07:34 am Link Nothing wrong with model referrals but that assumes the models friends and associates are people you'll want to work with. While I've found a few great models through other models I've found most on my own. I also don't want to shoot the same models over and over. Sites like this are full of unreliable dreamers. Same for Instagram and others if you aren't paying and heck even when you are many times models simply aren't going to follow up and shoot. Several years ago I worked with a MM model. This after she flaked once and called off twice. When she finally came through I asked her what the deal was. She confessed that she didn't have a stable place to live and had to bring most of her things where ever she went. This was confirmed by her two large suitcases, laptop, etc. she had with her. Going to push back on this idea our work has little to no value. Models use your work to get paid shoots. This said I never forget where I'm at. Back to unreliable but also at times living difficult lives. A new job or crisis and your shoot ain't happening. They way not let you know somethings going on. In fact a lot of the time they simply change their minds and move on. Don't take it personally. Don't get angry. Just continue to reach out to more models and always, always have a back up plan. Aug 10 18 08:11 am Link Always get #'s. Establish a good communication/chemistry through text. Any model who says they don't exchange numbers and prefer "email" I just move on from. There is no way to establish those things if the conversation isn't in real time. They will all end up flaking or not responding or "I never log on here, my email, etc". If they are weary remind them all smartphones have block features now. Every model on here I've exchanged numbers with and establish a real back and forth communication with I've shot. There are a few who don't even respond to the original text, even though they've given their number to you, those you just block and delete. Aug 15 18 11:49 am Link |
