Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Hey all, I'm wondering a few things. A photographer contacted me wanting to work with me. He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that? Should I ask for a percentage of the profit? Should I make my own contract? And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that?

Yes, if you agree.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I ask for a percentage of the profit?

No, this is unworkable for so many reasons

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I make my own contract?

No.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

If you want to be paid, it's really best to ask for a flat fee up front.

Mark Salo wrote:

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that?

Yes, if you agree.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I ask for a percentage of the profit?

No, this is unworkable for so many reasons

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I make my own contract?

No.


If you want to be paid, it's really best to ask for a flat fee up front.

^^^ this

kane wrote:

I'm sorry?

Mark Salo wrote:

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that?

Yes, if you agree.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I ask for a percentage of the profit?

No, this is unworkable for so many reasons

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I make my own contract?

No.


If you want to be paid, it's really best to ask for a flat fee up front.

Would I still have rights to my images, ie portfolio and print use if I weren't one paid?

AJScalzitti wrote:
None of these things are related.

TFP is a trade, what are you getting in return for your time?  If its worth it do it.

If the photographer is going to try and sell the images that is how they are justifying their time and expense.

Unless given you don't have any rights to "their" images.  Even as the subject you have no ownership, just the right that they not be used in a commercial manner.  This is generally define as anything endorsing a product or service but some states have a wider view, check yours.

So back to the first question, if you think they images would help you promote yourself then do it.  Be sure to make sure you have usage rights for them so that you can use them and if he is planning on selling them he wil want a release.  You may ask for the release to contain usage clauses but he could just as easily say no thanks.

Winner !

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:

Would I still have rights to my images, ie portfolio and print use if I weren't one paid?

That depends on the agreement between you and the photographer. You would not typically have any automatic rights to use the images.
These might be helpful to you: http://www.newmodels.com/Releases.html  http://www.newmodels.com/Usage.html

AJScalzitti wrote:
None of these things are related.

TFP is a trade, what are you getting in return for your time?  If its worth it do it.

If the photographer is going to try and sell the images that is how they are justifying their time and expense.

Unless given you don't have any rights to "their" images.  Even as the subject you have no ownership, just the right that they not be used in a commercial manner.  This is generally define as anything endorsing a product or service but some states have a wider view, check yours.

So back to the first question, if you think they images would help you promote yourself then do it.  Be sure to make sure you have usage rights for them so that you can use them and if he is planning on selling them he wil want a release.  You may ask for the release to contain usage clauses but he could just as easily say no thanks.

Thank you for the great value added post.

GPS STUDIO SERVICES - MM FORUM GUIDE

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Would I still have rights to my images, ie portfolio and print use if I weren't one paid?

NewBoldPhoto wrote:
That depends on the agreement between you and the photographer. You would not typically have any automatic rights to use the images.
These might be helpful to you: http://www.newmodels.com/Releases.html  http://www.newmodels.com/Usage.html

Another good, value added post, thank you.

GPS STUDIO SERVICES - MM FORUM GUIDE

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Hey all, I'm wondering a few things. A photographer contacted me wanting to work with me. He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that?

Sure, especially if you sign a model release.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I ask for a percentage of the profit?

If you want, but such arrangements tend to be nightmares.  If you ask me, I'd just ask to get paid a modeling fee up front.  TF* is a trade/exchange -- if the photographer expects to sell the images, he should be considering paying the model (subject to the local supply & demand, of course).

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Should I make my own contract?

Not unless you are a lawyer & are experienced with contract law.  Like I said, these contracts are nightmares.  For example, your contract should cover questions like...
...  Can both parties sell the images, or just one?
...  What happens if one person wants to veto the placement the other party
     finds?
...  What happens if one party moves?
...  What happens if one party can't find the other party?
...  How long does this arrangement last?
...  Can one party sell their interest in this arrangement to a 3rd party?
...  What happens if one party dies?
...  Can either party audit the other party's books?
...  How frequently do the parties exchange statements?
...  What happens if one of the parties are sued over an issue with the image?
...  What happens if one of the parties wants to sue someone over the image
     (e.g. for a copyright infringement)?
And I can think of several more questions that would need to be covered.  In general, "contracts" written by amateurs tend to be poorly worded, vague, contradictory, and in general worthless in court.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

I would avoid a "shared revenue" arrangement at all costs -- see above; these arrangements are nightmares.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Would I still have rights to my images, ie portfolio and print use if I weren't one paid?

Let's be clear:  unless you have a contract with the photographer that explicitly says that you have rights to the images, the resulting images would be the photographer's, and not yours.  You are welcome to negotiate usage rights for portfolio and/or print licenses -- these agreements are reasonable, especially if the photographer expects to profit from the resulting images.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Hey all, I'm wondering a few things. A photographer contacted me wanting to work with me. He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that? Should I ask for a percentage of the profit? Should I make my own contract? And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

your payment is the images.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Alright, well how much would a reasonable rate be? I will be providing my home for the shoot, own hair, makeup, wardrobe. I am new to the industry and don't want to make silly mistakes.

Reasonable rate?  He offered his images already as comp, you apparently feel those are not suitable and would prefer cash money instead.  Please note I said instead, you won't get both money and images.

It's really a simple trade, will this photographers images be worth your time? Yes or No.

What the photographer is wanting to do has no bearing on it and just because he wants to sell the images doesn't mean he wil.  Even if he does he may only make micostock rates on them, less than a dollar per.  Just look at the deal offered, it is highly unlikely the photographer would accept new terms but you are free to try.  Realize that if they don't accept they are unlikely to shoot with you at all.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Alright, well how much would a reasonable rate be? I will be providing my home for the shoot, own hair, makeup, wardrobe. I am new to the industry and don't want to make silly mistakes.

How much money will make you be okay with him possibly selling the resulting images?

What are the images OF, he WANTS to sell but is his work actually GOING to sell, to whom, for what purpose, how many times/for how much money, etc etc?

You can want $500.00, but just because he wants to sell the images doesnt automatically mean he will, and even if he does, maybe he'll sell them for $200. So hes not actually coming out on top if he has to pay you 500, he LOST 300 in the deal, so why would he do that? The point of selling the images is make money, not not-even-break-even on it.


Without those kind of details, theres no magic number anyone here can give you that would be "fair". Its fair if you and him think its fair. Youve got to figure it out.

kane wrote:

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
I'm sorry?

It means "Get the popcorn! This is going to be entertaining."  Apparently Kane thought the thread would go off the tracks quickly.  Fortunately, everyone else (so far at any rate) has treated your serious question with the seriousness it deserves, and responded with helpful information.

Kudos to all!

Rays Fine Art Forum Guide

Rays Fine Art wrote:

kane wrote:

It means "Get the popcorn! This is going to be entertaining."  Apparently Kane thought the thread would go off the tracks quickly.  Fortunately, everyone else (so far at any rate) has treated your serious question with the seriousness it deserves, and responded with helpful information.

Kudos to all!

Rays Fine Art Forum Guide

I've got to admit I'm pretty surprised by the lack of Mayhem in this one!

NicoleNudes wrote:
You can either agree to do a TF shoot with him and you use the images for your portfolio and he tries to sell the images.

Or you can ask for payment and he can sell the images.

Either way I wouldn't expect to get pay and images from the shoot. I would pick one of them.

+1

He can do whatever he wants, IF you let him... if you don't think it's fair that you aren't being paid and he will (might be) making a profit on your photos; then ask for a flat fee/hourly fee. But many times when you get paid, photographers may not give you any images, so just be aware of that.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
You have been offered a job and compensation in the form of images.   You  need to evaluate the work that photographer produces and need to decide if the images that photographer may provide you are worthy compensation to you or not.  If so, accept, if not decline.

You are the only one who can really decide how valuable the images you may receive are to you.

+1
yes! it's all about your worth and what is important to you. If his work is good and you're interested in working with him but he is only willing to do tf, then maybe that's worth it to you regardless of him making money off of the photos or not. If his work isn't what you would like in your portfolio and he doesn't want to pay you, then just don't shoot with him.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Alright, well how much would a reasonable rate be? I will be providing my home for the shoot, own hair, makeup, wardrobe. I am new to the industry and don't want to make silly mistakes.

there's no magic number or even a rate guide. for example, I charge $100/hr. for up to fine art nudes (most of my bookings tend to be fine art nudes), but I work as a professional model w/4+ years experience and hundreds of photoshoots under my belt. As a newbie w/minimal experience, I'd say perhaps $20-$25/hr. or a flat $50-100 fee depending on the time spent (this doesn't include your hair/makeup time or the photographer setting up of course).

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Hey all, I'm wondering a few things. A photographer contacted me wanting to work with me. He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that? Should I ask for a percentage of the profit? Should I make my own contract? And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

Depends on what he's selling them for.  When I sell shots I originally did as TFP shoots to an art collector, I pay the model 20% of the net profit.  When I do a commercial sale, I negotiate a payment to the model that would equal her commercial fee.  I figure if I am getting my commercial rate, she should too!

Mark Salo wrote:
If you want to be paid, it's really best to ask for a flat fee up front.

+1000

Anything else is a minefield, for both parties.




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Alright, well how much would a reasonable rate be? I will be providing my home for the shoot, own hair, makeup, wardrobe. I am new to the industry and don't want to make silly mistakes.

Just offering a helpful attitude adjustment here .... You WILL make a LOT of silly mistakes. Look forward to them, and shrug them off as another experience, and interesting story to tell your friends ... look forward to the to spice up your life.
No one is who is sharp or shrewd without having learned it SOMEWHERE -- through hard-earned experience forged in the fiery furnace of silly mistakes ........ so to speak.

So, do your best, and don't worry about making mistakes. They WILL happen. Accept them, and move on to the next mistakes ... and the next one. Just keep moving -- you'll do just fine.

Loki Studio wrote:
A TF* shoot is a simple trade and usually done without a model release or contract.  You can agree to sign a model release for commercial use and sale that also provides you portfolio rights and a percentage of any revenue from any use/licensing of the images every 90 days. Given that you are providing many resources for the shoot, 50% could be reasonable.

Do realize that attempting to sell photos of unknown models is extremely hard and there may not be any revenue at all.

Not sure I would agree with most of this.

Firstly, always sign a model release and keep a copy of it for yourself. This defines the use that can be made of the images. It sets out what your rights are and what the photographer can do with the images. It should state what compensation you received for the shoot and if any future payments are due and what they are. The photographer should send you a copy of this a few days before the shoot.

If it's a TF shoot, this should include how many edited images you will get, in what format and over what time frame. It should also include the terms under which you can use them. Remember, the photographer owns the copyright, not you and unless he agrees to share it with you, in writing, that's how it will stay.

Secondly, it's unlikely any photographer will pay you a per centage of the income from the images. Usually, you get an upfront payment and that's it. Unless the photographer is taking these for a specific client, he/she is taking these shots on spec and may or may not make a profit from the shoot. He is taking all of the risks.

Accounting for the income from a specific image or shoot would be a nightmare and anyway, how do you know he's telling you the truth? What expenses do you deduct from the sales before you share the profit? An upfront payment is your best bet here and is the more usual way things are done.

Thirdly, payment rates vary from place to place and also depend on the style of image being produced. Only local models can tell you about that.

You are providing a huge input in terms of costs, for this shoot. You should research what these would cost in your local area, for example, how much would a MUA cost or what is the rental on a studio, in your area? Make sure to ad the value of these services to anything you will charge for your time.

I know that you said it's a TF shoot but if he's selling the images, unless you are completely inexperienced, you should charge him. In my opinion, TF shoots are for portfolio use only. If one party is going to make money from it, then all should.

In this case, you appear to be making most of the input while he's looking to make all of the potential profit. You need to rethink this situation.

AJScalzitti wrote:
None of these things are related.

TFP is a trade, what are you getting in return for your time?  If its worth it do it.

If the photographer is going to try and sell the images that is how they are justifying their time and expense.

Unless given you don't have any rights to "their" images.  Even as the subject you have no ownership, just the right that they not be used in a commercial manner.  This is generally define as anything endorsing a product or service but some states have a wider view, check yours.

So back to the first question, if you think they images would help you promote yourself then do it.  Be sure to make sure you have usage rights for them so that you can use them and if he is planning on selling them he wil want a release.  You may ask for the release to contain usage clauses but he could just as easily say no thanks.

AJ's posts (both of them) have pretty well summed it up.

I have asked for releases for trade shoots for over a year, and only one model has refused. (She said she was over her optimum weight when we shot.) She is also a very experienced model, and I have 6-7 photos of her in my portfolio from that shoot.

If a photographer has the choice of shooting with an experienced or even a published model with a few years' experience who is willing to sign a release, or a model with one month who isn't... Well, that's kind of a no-brainer.

By the way, the chances that the photographer will actually sell photos from your shoot are probably fairly remote. Back in the day, even the dinkiest magazines paid something for photos. Now, some of the biggest ones don't - and the rates paid by those that do are far below where they used to be.

Even Maxim doesn't pay for photos - except the cover, which pays $300. If a photographer should happen to land a model on the cover of Maxim, I suspect she would be thrilled - more so than if the photographer had paid her $300, because a Maxim cover would greatly enhance the model's marketability.

There are tons of actresses, other celebrities and models who are paying publicists and photographers to try to get them in Maxim.

As AJ pointed out, splitting a microstock sale isn't worth the time to do the paperwork. There was a time when payment for stock photos used to be $50 and up. Microstock sales can be 50 cents and lower (or higher).

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Would I still have rights to my images, ie portfolio and print use if I weren't one paid?

Only the photographer has rights to use images. If a recognizable image of a person appears in a photograph, the subject of that image can prevent the image from being used commercially; but models do not automatically have the right to use pictures of themselves.

When I do TF shoots, I normally grant the model (in writing) permission to do absolutely anything (lawful) with the images in exchange for the model's permission for me to do the same. I understand that this policy is more generous than that of many photographers, but I'm comfortable with it. Your mileage may vary.

(Note: I am not a lawyer, and could be wrong; verify this for yourself if you care.)

kane wrote:

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
I'm sorry?

Rays Fine Art wrote:
It means "Get the popcorn! This is going to be entertaining."  Apparently Kane thought the thread would go off the tracks quickly.  Fortunately, everyone else (so far at any rate) has treated your serious question with the seriousness it deserves, and responded with helpful information.

Kudos to all!

Rays Fine Art Forum Guide

I agree ... this thread is full of good, informative answers.  I think everybody needs kudos for keeping, what could have been a difficult thread on track. It could have been a train wreck and it wasn't. 

To everyone, this is an example of a great thread!

GPS STUDIO SERVICES - MM FORUM GUIDE

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Also realize that just because a photographer hopes to makes some money, does not mean it will be much, and may not be anything at all.  The value of the images a model receives could very well, exceed a few speculative art sales or a few microstock sales.

You bring up another good point.  A model is paid based largely on their look (something their parents did) and their ability to deliver (something they do).  It has little to do with with the prices of the images.  That is based largely on what the photographer does and what the clients can accomplish with them.  There is no relation and models are not paid more (or less) based on the price of images.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Alright, well how much would a reasonable rate be? I will be providing my home for the shoot, own hair, makeup, wardrobe. I am new to the industry and don't want to make silly mistakes.

Well, is it a hobbiyst photographer or a great artist?

If he can't give you pictures that will make your port much greater than it is, charge up. Look at other model's fees in your area, and it will give you an idea.

On the other hand, if this is a great photographer with the skill to give you great pictures that will want everyone else in your area to work with you, by all means go for the pictures (TF). Just discuss how many retouched pictures you will get, and how long after the shoot, before saying yes.

This way, each of you get out from this deal with something of equal value.

D-Light wrote:

Not sure I would agree with most of this.

Firstly, always sign a model release and keep a copy of it for yourself. This defines the use that can be made of the images. It sets out what your rights are and what the photographer can do with the images. It should state what compensation you received for the shoot and if any future payments are due and what they are. The photographer should send you a copy of this a few days before the shoot.

If it's a TF shoot, this should include how many edited images you will get, in what format and over what time frame. It should also include the terms under which you can use them. Remember, the photographer owns the copyright, not you and unless he agrees to share it with you, in writing, that's how it will stay.

Secondly, it's unlikely any photographer will pay you a per centage of the income from the images. Usually, you get an upfront payment and that's it. Unless the photographer is taking these for a specific client, he/she is taking these shots on spec and may or may not make a profit from the shoot. He is taking all of the risks.

Accounting for the income from a specific image or shoot would be a nightmare and anyway, how do you know he's telling you the truth? What expenses do you deduct from the sales before you share the profit? An upfront payment is your best bet here and is the more usual way things are done.

Thirdly, payment rates vary from place to place and also depend on the style of image being produced. Only local models can tell you about that.

You are providing a huge input in terms of costs, for this shoot. You should research what these would cost in your local area, for example, how much would a MUA cost or what is the rental on a studio, in your area? Make sure to ad the value of these services to anything you will charge for your time.

I know that you said it's a TF shoot but if he's selling the images, unless you are completely inexperienced, you should charge him. In my opinion, TF shoots are for portfolio use only. If one party is going to make money from it, then all should.

In this case, you appear to be making most of the input while he's looking to make all of the potential profit. You need to rethink this situation.

You started off describing something that is NOT a model release, and no, for a model there's no good reason to "always" sign one.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Hey all, I'm wondering a few things. A photographer contacted me wanting to work with me. He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that? Should I ask for a percentage of the profit? Should I make my own contract? And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

Well, as far as him selling them, it's legal, he does own them. Doing them for trade dosnt mean you're entitled to a penny if you agree to the shoot. If you'd like to make some money off of it, which I can see why, then before a single image is taken, then tell him so, and make sure to get it in writing, including how much you're going to be paid, and be prepared to write a receipt  sure a receipt may sound like overkill, but you go into a store and buy something, you get a receipt. You go to work, you get a paystub right?  This is a business transaction right?  So, cover your rear ahead of time before the images are taken.

Kaylee Lynnx wrote:
Hey all, I'm wondering a few things. A photographer contacted me wanting to work with me. He asked to do a TF shoot but wants to sell my images. Can he do that? Should I ask for a percentage of the profit? Should I make my own contract? And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for? Thanks

He can if it's in the contract/release so read that carefully. But really this isn't what TF is meant for. If he has a commercial shoot he should be paying you.

"Should I ask for a percentage of the profit?"
No ... also, profit is such a vague term.
Movie studios use this all the time to scam actors out of royalties and to avoid paying taxes.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201210 … able.shtml

"Should I make my own contract?"
HELLS NO! Would you walk into a job interview with a contract you wrote?

"And how much would be a reasonable percentage to ask for?"
Again, you don;t ask for a percentage, you ask for a straight flat fee.

Do the programers working on games from EA get percentages of profits? No, they get their salve wage.