Brooks Ayola wrote:
Could you elaborate with some links for more info? I have no idea what any of the stuff you mentioned is. :-)

I suggest these because people are accostomed to seeing the adbase mailers by now and sometimes will disregard them. Hey thet can guarantee that your card is delivered, not that it is seen.

http://www.mriplus.com  """The leading database of key magazine planning resources. The information link between planners and publishers."""

http://www.bacons.com/index.asp   """The services of Bacon’s Information support business executives and individuals employed in a range of disciplines, including public relations, investor relations, marketing, corporate communications, and business intelligence.

Most of the Fortune 500 companies are among our client base, but so are one-person firms, as well as most PR firms, non-profit and governmental organizations."""



EDIT:
To answer the question, either fresh out of school or when you have reached a plateau/valley. It would be best utilized at a transition point and not abruptly while you are already working. Heaven forbid you have a steady clientbase and WHAM! it hits you.

TestShoot wrote:
...EDIT:
To answer the question, either fresh out of school or when you have reached a plateau/valley. It would be best utilized at a transition point and not abruptly while you are already working. Heaven forbid you have a steady clientbase and WHAM! it hits you.

This part I'll try to bring a different perspective to.

Marketing should be a non-stop continuous process. The point is not always just to get more clients, but better ones too. So, no matter how busy you are, it's always smart to try to replace all those low paying (pain in the ass) clients with higher paying ones.

Starting a new marketing campaign is rarely something that gives immediate results. Assuming the images that you're putting out there are marketable and top quality, you're still getting your name in front of people that most likely have photographers that they work with and trust. It takes time to get into the loop where you get that first "try out" by a new client.

I would suspect that nearly ALL top advertising and editorial photographers market themselves year round no matter how busy they are. If you wait until you slow down, it may be too late. :-)

Brooks Ayola wrote:
....So, no matter how busy you are, it's always smart to try to replace all those low paying (pain in the ass) clients with higher paying ones....

There are *low* paying and *pain-in-the-ass* clients? :scratcheshead:

But seriously, artists have the tendendcy to burn out, and stress is not your friend. Being consistent and having an on-going plan makes perfect sense on paper. To counter: I guess the addage is "for your dinner party, never send out more invitations to people than you can feed. If one guest goes hungry, it can ruin the whole party."

thehitter wrote:
this is a great thread for me.
answers questions i didn't even know to ask.

I second this comment.

thehitter wrote:
this is a great thread for me.
answers questions i didn't even know to ask.

How about asking some questions that you did think of. :-)

I'd love to keep this thread on the front page because I think it's important to debate. Many different types of photography can be marketed in many different ways, but the heart of the matter is finding who to market to. That's where a good mailing list comes in. I think many people are not even reading this because they have no idea what Adbase is so they don't think it will be interesting.

Brooks Ayola wrote:

How about asking some questions that you did think of. :-)

I'd love to keep this thread on the front page because I think it's important to debate. Many different types of photography can be marketed in many different ways, but the heart of the matter is finding who to market to. That's where a good mailing list comes in. I think many people are not even reading this because they have no idea what Adbase is so they don't think it will be interesting.

watching, watching........ :-0 and thanking you all for the discussion. Tremendously helpful. Brooks, more truffles for you...... :-)

Brooks Ayola wrote:
Hey Gabriel. At Freshlists, there is a Florida Agency/Design list for $40. You can't beat that with a stick! :-)

http://www.freshlists.com/fresh_la.html

Consultants do many things and usually have many levels of service they offer. I did a portfolio build with Leslie Burns-Dell’Acqua that was only a few hundred bucks.

http://www.burnsautoparts.com/BAPsite/Service.html

Look at the Test Drive (mini consultation).

Thanks, I was just looking at that. So if I get the list of ad agencies here, how would I know who to target? Do they give examples (names) of their clients? I don't want to do the shotgun approach with my promo cards.

criderphotography wrote:
This is exactly the kind of discussion that I've been interested in for some time. Currently, I shoot semi-professionally, but I want to do more, and earn better money (beyond the PJ work I mostly do).  My time is limited, and I'm struggling with how to effectively market myself and begin to fill my pipeline. I'm actively working on expanding my portfolio, but I know that the right people out there need to learn about me, presumably at the same time. This thread is very useful.

On the other hand, I just read this blog article the other day from Dan Heller:

http://danheller.blogspot.com/2007/02/p … g-its.html

It talks about a different approach, and seems to be long term thinking, but will take a significant amount of time before you hit critical mass.

For those of you who have been shooting professional for some time, do you agree with Dan's analysis that the push marketing (sending out postcards, etc.) is old school, and will really only work for established photographers whom most art directors and clients already know? It's not the impression I'm getting from guys like Brooks, et. al.

Greg

I can't really answer your question, but I have something to add to it: Heller's last paragraph in this article seems to assume that art directors and editors and all the big industry people are actually reading stuff on the Internet all the time. How true would this really be? He implies that the people who are trying his approach unsuccessfully are having problems with the method because they are just "not that smart" about their respective industries. What if no one with career-changing power is really reading their blogs, forum posts, etc.?

Otherwise, I found it a very sound and informative article. Thanks for sharing it.

Gabriel wrote:
Thanks, I was just looking at that. So if I get the list of ad agencies here, how would I know who to target? Do they give examples (names) of their clients? I don't want to do the shotgun approach with my promo cards.

I haven't used Freshlists for many years, but way back then, each listing had at least specialties shown. Now, they probably have web site URL's, which makes it easier to check out each company to see if they fit with you. Also, it's very easy to call Karen at Fresh Lists and ask her questions. She is super friendly and helpful as I remember.

Brooks Ayola wrote:
You're assuming that sending out a mailer automatically brings in calls. The point is not to get instant jobs, although that would be great. The point is to keep your name and vision in front of the people you want to work with constantly. Most likely they will not be working on a job that needs your style right when you send a mailer. Timing is rarely that good. Chances are they might just put your promo up on their bulletin board and call you a year later when you fit a project.

If you wait until you're slow to start marketing, then that year might be a loooong one. :-)

Agreed, seeding the market is good. Also follow up calls to potential clients MUST be mentioned. Just sending out and sitting by the phone is not going to work.

Adbase,like anything else is in this business, is a recurring cost. That is to say every 6 months, you *should* be sending something fresh out. $500 is not a big price to pay. Even $1500 is worth it if there are quality leads. If you don't invest in yourself, nobody else will.

Now for the ancillary costs. (to name a few)

You need to have your book assembled should that phone ring. Spend the money at PortAuthority or similar. The mailer is only going to raise one question: "When can we see your book." Don't be caught with your pants down. Adbase is not going to generate mom and pop that will take it on good authority you are up to par.

FedEx is going to be your friend. Anything that is more than 3 days delivery is killing time off the clock. You want them to remember who you are when your book arrives and nothing says "I am a cheap-ass" like a brown box or standard USPS mailer.

Make aduplicate portfolio for you to keep with you. If all goes according to plan, you will probably forget what your portfolio actually looks like because it will travel more than you do.

TestShoot wrote:
PS, is there a Euro-equivalent?

FYI, should anybody be interested. I might as well burn some money and do 3-4 of these lists. I have never paid any service before, but what the hell, my phone rings a) I'll be impressed, b) I have no idea, I'll cross that bridge when I get there

Look at Bikini Lists linked above. They say European list, but you might need to look through the site a bit to figure it out.

criderphotography wrote:
On the other hand, I just read this blog article the other day from Dan Heller:

http://danheller.blogspot.com/2007/02/p … g-its.html

It talks about a different approach, and seems to be long term thinking, but will take a significant amount of time before you hit critical mass.

For those of you who have been shooting professional for some time, do you agree with Dan's analysis that the push marketing (sending out postcards, etc.) is old school, and will really only work for established photographers whom most art directors and clients already know? It's not the impression I'm getting from guys like Brooks, et. al.

Greg

That article made my head hurt. Talk about an exercise in futility.

I can only talk from the advertising/editorial world, so a lot of that stuff was just plain wrong for me. Art buyers and art directors at agencies want vision. I doubt very many of them have the time or energy to read photographers blogs about their industry. Most of the ad agencies work on a wide variety of industries. It just seems like his approach would take forever and if you ended up being an online authority in a certain subject, you might meet some people in that industry and then be able to push market to them. Painful.

Now, I'm not saying that blogs are useless either, hell I have one and it's pretty popular, but I more or less just use it as the "what's new" section of my site and to show a little of my personality.

All the feedback I get from consultants is that even though web sites have become an integral part of a photographer's marketing tool, agencies and most magazines still need to see a physical book. Art directors and designers don't have time to huddle around someone's monitor to see your work. It gets passed around or left on the conference room table (along with everyone else's called in for a project) for people to peruse at will.

Gabriel wrote:
...but I have something to add to it: Heller's last paragraph in this article seems to assume that art directors and editors and all the big industry people are actually reading stuff on the Internet all the time. How true would this really be? He implies that the people who are trying his approach unsuccessfully are having problems with the method because they are just "not that smart" about their respective industries. What if no one with career-changing power is really reading their blogs, forum posts, etc.?...

Exactly.

TestShoot wrote:
Agreed, seeding the market is good. Also follow up calls to potential clients MUST be mentioned. Just sending out and sitting by the phone is not going to work.

Adbase,like anything else is in this business, is a recurring cost. That is to say every 6 months, you *should* be sending something fresh out. $500 is not a big price to pay. Even $1500 is worth it if there are quality leads. If you don't invest in yourself, nobody else will.

Now for the ancillary costs. (to name a few)

You need to have your book assembled should that phone ring. Spend the money at PortAuthority or similar. The mailer is only going to raise one question: "When can we see your book." Don't be caught with your pants down. Adbase is not going to generate mom and pop that will take it on good authority you are up to par.

FedEx is going to be your friend. Anything that is more than 3 days delivery is killing time off the clock. You want them to remember who you are when your book arrives and nothing says "I am a cheap-ass" like a brown box or standard USPS mailer.

Make aduplicate portfolio for you to keep with you. If all goes according to plan, you will probably forget what your portfolio actually looks like because it will travel more than you do.

I think I made your main point way up top somewhere, but it's worth repeating. No need to start a marketing campaign until you can back it up with your web site and a physical portfolio. Which, by the way should all be branded alike. Same colors, logos, type faces, design elements, overall feel.

I designed my portfolios to fit into a medium FedEx box, but I've also looked into having custom shipping boxes made. I just haven't jumped on that yet. :-) And yes, more than one book is a good idea, people don't always send them back in a timely manner, and you might need to send one out or show it to someone else when the other is gone. Some photographers have many books.

You mention Port Authority. I've been to Selina's seminar and it was great. She's one of the top marketing consultants in the business. We talked many times, but I didn't feel like we meshed, so I went with someone else. Hiring a marketing consultant to help put your book together and point you in the right direction is a great investment. It can be as inexpensive as a few hundred bucks, to thousands depending on the services.

Here's another list (the lazy way) even though this is probably another thread altogether. :-)

Marketing consultants:
http://prophotoforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=47

Brooks Ayola wrote:
I think I made your main point way up top somewhere, but it's worth repeating. No need to start a marketing campaign until you can back it up with your web site and a physical portfolio.

...or a fully functioning, privately maintained studio, stocked full of all the needed creative tools to satisfy big ticket client demands... which of course I don't have.

Yeah, not getting caught with your pants down... a good thing. I don't want to jump in and tell the local world that "here I am, use me" and I can't fulfill their needs because I don't have the tools necessary. I got talent, a good camera, a bunch of average lighting equipment, and minimal exposure to serious business relationships.

I have no doubt, a service would be a good thing to embark upon, but I don't feel I'm ready to back it up as quoted above. That's why I'm still unsure as to WHEN that time should be. How much experience do you acquire before it's time to take it up a notch?

There have got to be others in this position.

David Gabel Photography wrote:
I have no doubt, a service would be a good thing to embark upon, but I don't feel I'm ready to back it up as quoted above. That's why I'm still unsure as to WHEN that time should be. How much experience do you acquire before it's time to take it up a notch?

There have got to be others in this position.

Yeah, the self-doubt as to your abilities can ground anyone. The truth is, to know, seek outside help. I'd say in person with some form of professional service, not as expensive as Port Authority though. I lean towards ponying-up the money for a portfolio review once you feel that you have the facilities and logistics at your disposal/rental availability when the phone does ring.

Once your mailer goes out, you may want to cut back on expenses too. Your first few gigs may cost more to you upfront than you are prepared for. Meaning you may need to fly somewhere, or hire some specialized help, the costs outside yourself and skills. This is a thought because many photographers are only shooting in their locale.