lll wrote:
Ok.  Digital monolight does not need any "cleaner" (as in low noise) power than traditional monolights, BUT it does require more stable voltage.  Generators and invertors have current limiting built-in, automatically lowering the output voltage when the current exceeds its limit.  As the voltage drops, the digital control circuit powers down, leading to erratic behavior.  This happens when the flash either recharges or during "startup" (basically recharging the light from zero, same thing).  That's why your digital light did not start up.

You have only once choice, really, is to stick with the traditional lights for outdoors.

So you're saying that my Patterson/Interfit monolight should be fine to use with a generator?

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

JAY carreon wrote:
What's the difference between a "regular monolight" and a "digital monolight"? 

I have a Patterson/Interfit 1000ws monolight - should I worry about using a generator to power it?

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

Jay, if you have the Stellar that comes with mechanical switches, you should be fine.  A regular monolight is not controlled by digital controller circuit, which is not affected much by voltage fluctuations.

Basically, the answer is yes. 

lll wrote:

Jay, if you have the Stellar that comes with mechanical switches, you should be fine.  A regular monolight is not controlled by digital controller circuit, which is not affected much by voltage fluctuations.

Basically, the answer is yes. 

Thanks!

Best Regards,
JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

lll wrote:
Ok.  Digital monolight does not need any "cleaner" (as in low noise) power than traditional monolights, BUT it does require more stable voltage.  Generators and invertors have current limiting built-in, automatically lowering the output voltage when the current exceeds its limit.  As the voltage drops, the digital control circuit powers down, leading to erratic behavior.  This happens when the flash either recharges or during "startup" (basically recharging the light from zero, same thing).  That's why your digital light did not start up.  The 1250 you have likely does not have such peak current as your Calumet Bowens, or its control circuit is more tolerant of voltage fluctuations.

You have only one choice, really, is to stick with the traditional lights for outdoors.

So would there than be some kind of regulator/amplifier that could be put in series of the lights and generator to help fight the voltage drop?  Or maybe a capacitor of some kind to keep that needed voltage stored so the digital interface doesn't lose memory/power down...?

EL PIC wrote:
What is the difference between clean and dirty power ???

Which should you use for nude photo ???

EL

clean power for art nude


dirty power for glamour nude

JAY carreon wrote:
What's the difference between a "regular monolight" and a "digital monolight"?

Analog units use sliders or "radio knobs" to control the power output, not very precise; digital units have LED displays to allow you to adjust by 1/10 stop. (Internal circuitry is different, of course.)

Sensorial Images wrote:
I don't know if this will solve the problem of all-day portable power without a generator, but Hensel now marketing the VISITMPG portable powerpack. Powers two monolights up to 1500ws.

Calumet has a TravelPak battery made to match their AC/DC Travelites. We do use these, and they are great for shorter shoots (portraits, etc.). They will NOT last for an all-day golf event or similar, and you can't wait for them to recharge during an event.

The generator will run for 8-16 hours, depending on power (idle), and I use that to power a print station case of 3 dye-sub printers, laptop, large LCD, receipt printer, etc. I have shot events where I added a 750ws analog monolight to the print station running at pretty much full power to balance with daylight (f/11-f/16) and it worked great for the full 8 hours we were there. Unfortunately, we are unable to do a larger setup that would require using digital lights as well.

Wm

Second Glance wrote:

Analog units use sliders or "radio knobs" to control the power output, not very precise; digital units have LED displays to allow you to adjust by 1/10 stop. (Internal circuitry is different, of course.)

Digital units are more sensitive. It's kind of like trying to jump start the older cars that are electrical and less computer digital. vs a more high tech car with sensors and digital technology. The older cars will take a jump start without anyu issues. The newer cars are senstive to jump start and it's not recommended to jump start the newer cars because of the sensitive technology that's under the hood that may screw up the sensors and computer box. High tech. sometimes can be a more of a handicap than help.

DPphotography wrote:
So would there than be some kind of regulator/amplifier that could be put in series of the lights and generator to help fight the voltage drop?  Or maybe a capacitor of some kind to keep that needed voltage stored so the digital interface doesn't lose memory/power down...?

It can be done, but it costs money and drive the cost up for the end product.  If 99% of their users have no such needs and need to build to a price, then the feature will not be put in.

Voltage regulators still have a minimum input supply voltage, and the regulator itself would shutdown.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Digital units are more sensitive. It's kind of like trying to jump start the older cars that are electrical and less computer digital. vs a more high tech car with sensors and digital technology. The older cars will take a jump start without anyu issues. The newer cars are senstive to jump start and it's not recommended to jump start the newer cars because of the sensitive technology that's under the hood that may screw up the sensors and computer box. High tech. sometimes can be a more of a handicap than help.

The car example is irrelevant.  Jumpstarting only involves putting another battery in parallel, it's actually pretty much invisible to the rest of the car's control circuits.

Digital monolights can be made less sensitive to power fluctuations, with current limiting built-in to the box; most don't do it, because it's an extra cost.

DMHolman wrote:
That's kind of strange.  That generator claims to have clean power, but I do notice they never use the term "true sinewave", which is what I always look for.  I wonder if their improved sinewave is actually still a digital wave (with steps, albeit it small steps) instead of a true, smooth sinewave?

Good point - they use "clean" rather than "true", but I don't know if they mean the same thing. I only found this explanation:
"In order to overcome this problem, Honda engineers developed a revolutionary form of inverter technology. This process takes the raw power produced by the generator, passes it through a special microprocessor that provides ultra-clean power that boasts a sine wave equal to or better than the current from your household AC wall outlet. This means that for the first time, you can operate a computer or other sensitive equipment from a remote location without the fear of interrupted service or damage to the equipment."
The line about sine wave equal to or better than the current from your household AC wall outlet leads me to believe that it is a good sine wave.

Of course, there may be a voltage variation as other devices start sucking current - not sure about that. You definitely hear the engine throttle down under load. But our computers, printers, and monitors have no problem with it.

lll wrote:

The car example is irrelevant.  Jumpstarting only involves putting another battery in parallel, it's actually pretty much invisible to the rest of the car's control circuits.

Digital monolights can be made less sensitive to power fluctuations, with current limiting built-in to the box; most don't do it, because it's an extra cost.

It is relevant. With some of the new cars it isn't that simple. I'm from Detriot have been raised around cars. And it is recommend by mechanics and auto dealers not to jump start some of the newer hightech cars (forgot to add, with another car) because of the circuits.

Legacys 7 wrote:
It is relevant. With some of the new cars it isn't that simple. I'm from Detriot have been raised around cars. And it is recommend by mechanics and auto dealers not to jump start some of the newer hightech cars (forgot to add, with another car) because of the circuits.

New cars are no more "sensitive" to jump starts than older cars.  I am a tech at the only GM dealer in my town.  Cars are built to be able to be jump started.  Even caddys (which is the main car of my dealer "ken diepholz Chevrolet and Cadillac") Can handle jump starts just fine.  It doesn't mess with the electronics at all.   The amount of fuses and circuit breakers and other circuit protections is ungodly and before ANY of the electronics would get damaged from a jump ... the fuses would blow and the power would never reach the modules.

Ed Goodwin Photography wrote:
Don't ask me to explain this shit.  But, it is apparently the reason you can't use flash systems with portable generators.

Ironically, power pack systems seem to have no problems with a generator. Or so I'm told by the guys at Calumet.

Second Glance wrote:
I'm trying to solve a problem that we've recently discovered, and I'm hoping that some of you have seen this situation or can make some recommendations. I'm including hyperlinks on the relevant gear in case anyone wants to double-check the specs/etc. (NOTE: this message was also posted in other listservs - sorry if you see it more than once!).

I've been using monolights for years, including the newer Calumet (Bowens) Digital Travelites. Although my AC/DC Travelites work ok on a Honda EU3000is generator, the digital Travelites will not power up. (My older Photogenic 1250DR digital monolights *will* work on the generator.) I've been told that no monolight mfr advises powering their units off a generator, however batteries are not feasible for events that can run all day. The digital Travelites require 95-130VAC at 60Hz; the Honda outputs 120VAC at 60Hz via a built-in inverter (which they assert is clean power). Does anyone have experience with such a problem, or any recommendations (other than "sell all the monolights and buy xyz brand power pack systems")?

Thanks,
Wm

I call BS!!!

I have used the Honda 2000i for many hours on roof top shot driving 3 Hensel 500 w/ 300 watt modeling lights, two battery chargers (camera & AA batteries) and a MacBook Pro...

NO Problems...

I wonder what the problem would be, I doubt that a single mono light would pull more current than the 3000i can deliver.

TheeBlueRoom wrote:

I call BS!!!

I have used the Honda 2000i for many hours on roof top shot driving 3 Hensel 500 w/ 300 watt modeling lights, two battery chargers (camera & AA batteries) and a MacBook Pro...

NO Problems...

I wonder what the problem would be, I doubt that a single mono light would pull more current than the 3000i can deliver.

Were you running the older integra series lights or the new integra pros?

Legacys 7 wrote:
It is relevant. With some of the new cars it isn't that simple. I'm from Detriot have been raised around cars. And it is recommend by mechanics and auto dealers not to jump start some of the newer hightech cars (forgot to add, with another car) because of the circuits.

I am not from Detroit, but I am positive that I know how to build the circuits in "modern cars" than any mechanics, afterall I teach a lot of students who went on to work at GM and Ford.  I don't know what these mechanics and auto dealers have in terms of engineering education; because what they fed you is utter nonsense.  Jumpstarting a car is like replacing a battery and then restarting the car; you place a battery in parallel with the one that's already dead.  If that would kill a car, so would the original working battery.  Nonsense.

The only cars that would not work with straighforward jumpstarting are the hybrids because of the auto-engine shutoff feature that's built-in.  All other ICEs can be jumpstarted without a problem.

Remember that capacitive load also changes the "phase" of the current.  In layman terms, the current actually "looks" larger than it really is to the generator.  The current that the specification says is measured at 0 phase.  Now, this is generally irrelevant to flashes, because the capacitor is "shielded" from the AC source by the transformer etc.

digital Artform wrote:
Here's a thought:
Can you use the generator to keep the battery charged?
And then use the battery to power the strobes?

No, the digitals won't run off a battery - only AC. The analog units will run ok off the TravelPak battery or the generator, but we currently have only 2 of those and 3 of the digitals with a remote.

Wm

TheeBlueRoom wrote:
I call BS!!!

I have used the Honda 2000i for many hours on roof top shot driving 3 Hensel 500 w/ 300 watt modeling lights, two battery chargers (camera & AA batteries) and a MacBook Pro...

NO Problems...

I wonder what the problem would be, I doubt that a single mono light would pull more current than the 3000i can deliver.

I fail to see how you can call it BS. My point is that the analog units work fine, but the Calumet/Bowens digitals will not work. I have tried numerous (5-6) units on 2 different 3000i generators, and one of my colleagues just reported the same problem with his setup. Are your Hensel digital units, or analog?

Note that I have no problem powering a printer case with 3 Mitsubishi dye-sub printers, an inkjet printer, and a laptop with LCD monitor - all on the same generator. The Calumet digitals just don't seem to like it.

Wm

lll wrote:
Wm, I think your only recourse is to either get other lights (or just rent) for this particular job that you need to do.  There is no cheap way to solve your problem unless...you get someone to build a small voltage regular circuit and add to the Travelite's innards.  There is only so much you can do from the outside...

It's beginning to look that way. We don't want to buy extra equipment that may or may not work. I currently have about 8 of these generators out there, and all but one unit is running with the Travelites. The guys that first tried the generators had Photogenic PowerLights (3 digital versions and 2 small AC/DC versions), and they aren't having any issues. We may end up having to go back to Photogenic for all future equipment packages, although I hate to think that I've still got 8 guys out there with systems that won't work 100%. :-(

Paramour Productions wrote:

Were you running the older integra series lights or the new integra pros?

Both, I have two Integra Pro 500 (big silver coffee can looking), and a older Integra 500 (black shoot box)

Second Glance wrote:

I fail to see how you can call it BS. My point is that the analog units work fine, but the Calumet/Bowens digitals will not work. I have tried numerous (5-6) units on 2 different 3000i generators, and one of my colleagues just reported the same problem with his setup. Are your Hensel digital units, or analog?

Note that I have no problem powering a printer case with 3 Mitsubishi dye-sub printers, an inkjet printer, and a laptop with LCD monitor - all on the same generator. The Calumet digitals just don't seem to like it.

Wm

Sorry I was not clear, the BS was not aimed @ you, I would be interested in know why they do not work... A good power conditioner would be the next choice between the genset and lights

TheeBlueRoom wrote:
Sorry I was not clear, the BS was not aimed @ you, I would be interested in know why they do not work... A good power conditioner would be the next choice between the genset and lights

I'll definitely keep people updated. I have calls in to a couple of the Calumet techies, who will be researching with the Bowens people in the UK. I also have a message in to the tech support for Honda. We'll see what we come up with.

TheeBlueRoom wrote:

Both, I have two Integra Pro 500 (big silver coffee can looking), and a older Integra 500 (black shoot box)

Cool, thanks!

TheeBlueRoom wrote:
Sorry I was not clear, the BS was not aimed @ you, I would be interested in know why they do not work... A good power conditioner would be the next choice between the genset and lights

It's called instantaneous current.  As a capacitor recharge, it can draw a very large current.  There's no bs involved, just simple physics and circuitry (that doesn't exist to control this current).  Generators do not have very fast transient response, it's not uncommon to see this kind of application fail on generators, although a small flash is a little more rare.  But with digital control circuit, it's highly possible.

A power "conditioner" would not work unless it has adaptive output to match his light and can control the current output without lowering its own output voltage; those are normally not built for flashes, mostly for other more sensitive and expensive equipment.  And it's much more expensive Wm might as well buy new lights.