login info join!
Forums > Model Colloquy > When does the clock start? (for rates) Search   Reply
first123
Photographer
rdallasPhotography
Posts: 966
Norristown, Pennsylvania, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
The only problem you'll run into is trying to actually sell half and full day rates. You're going to run into a lot of "but I only need an hour, can I pay your 1/4 of that?" or they're only going to see the price in your reply, not hours allotted, and immediately decline without actually realizing "I can get four whole hours for that price and not have to rush and not have to be stingy on timing and actually make sure I get the shots I want!"

Maybe it's different for you, I very rarely get a half or full day booking. It's always 1.5-3 hours, and they're a pain in the ass to quote a price for, especially when it's over an hour for me to get to them half the time

The very first shoot I did where I hired a model for pay, from here, I only scheduled for 2 hours. That time flew by so fast and being my first time I wasn't very quick nor was I comfortable interacting yet. The studio didn't open early enough ahead of time before the shoot to allow the time to fully set up. And the model showed up 1 hour early with her manager who traveled with her. But it worked out because they both helped me carry my equipment up 32 stairs and set up. Now I always do at least half days. If I had my own studio, two or three hours wouldn't be a problem.

Oct 09 12 06:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rdallasPhotography
Posts: 966
Norristown, Pennsylvania, US


Lizette wrote:

Hi! Just to jump in, this could also be because it needs some time for the clothing marks to lift off the skin. smile I've been to some shoots(bikini / nude) where the model starts taking off their clothes just about when the photographer is ready but then realise they still have to wait some more time because the bra or panties left some marks / lines on the skin. smile

All of the models I have hired have come to the shoot wearing loose clothing and no underwear so with them that wasn't a problem. And sometimes when doing clothed/nude shoots we've done the nudes first.

Oct 09 12 06:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DraganSutic
Posts: 304
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I've always believed clock starts at call time and ends when I call wrap. However, I also have stipulations in my contract with models that give me a percentage discount if the model is late.
Oct 09 12 06:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daniel Norton
Posts: 1,743
New York, New York, US


For commercial work, the clock starts at call time and ends after the last frame. I rarely pay models for tests, but in the few times I have, I followed the same rules. Stopping the clock when the model changes etc seems absurd to me.

Some posters complained about models texting etc while they change.. they are freelancers after all and have to keep working their business even when they are working on your set. Though if it got out of hand I might say something and ask for a few extra minutes if needed at the end..
Oct 09 12 06:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


I prefer not to have to clock watch, and prefer to just quote a flat rate for the specific shoot responsibilities(time shooting, travel costs, any hair/make up/wardrobe styling I need to do) needed.


I also factor in any specific additional buyouts I need sign(I quote folks less for a port shoot than a commercial job that involves an all media buyout, for example)
Oct 09 12 08:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Thyronne
Posts: 1,355
Huntington Beach, California, US


Agree on a flat rate and take your prep time into consideration.  Agree on any overtime compensation before the shoot.
Oct 09 12 08:23 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to write out thoughtful replys! It is very appreciated smile

So, the trends in responses I'm seeing so far;

-It is best to charge half day or full day rates (there was one post about 'quarter day', which seems to be reasonable to me as well)

- The clock starts when the model arrive (on time). Time in the makeup chair is on the clock. **I noticed the only people who objected to this were photographers. Most (if not all) models said time in the chair is on the clock, and some photographers agreed as well. I'm curious about this.

- When a model is getting paid, it is a JOB, meaning no phone play or wasting time on set. Not that I ever do this anyway, I always like to have -professional- fun at a shoot smile

-When the clock starts, it doesn't stop until the shoot is wrapped up. This includes makeup touchups, wardobe changes, lighting changes, location/set changes.


Is this all correct? Please correct me if I am wrong on something (of course everyone will have different opinions).

Somebody said it would be a 'deal breaker' if a model stated that the clock starts when the call time is, or that she expects to be paid for being in the MUA chair. Models: would you be flexible with this if the photographer didn't like it? Or would you stand your ground? Photographers: Would you be willing to pay a model for this time spent, since she is taking time out of her day and is 'on the job' getting her makeup done? Or while you are setting up lights and she is ready to go, should she be paid for her time?
Oct 09 12 12:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jessie Shannon
Posts: 2,004
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to write out thoughtful replys! It is very appreciated smile

So, the trends in responses I'm seeing so far;

-It is best to charge half day or full day rates (there was one post about 'quarter day', which seems to be reasonable to me as well)

- The clock starts when the model arrive (on time). Time in the makeup chair is on the clock. **I noticed the only people who objected to this were photographers. Most (if not all) models said time in the chair is on the clock, and some photographers agreed as well. I'm curious about this.

- When a model is getting paid, it is a JOB, meaning no phone play or wasting time on set. Not that I ever do this anyway, I always like to have -professional- fun at a shoot smile

-When the clock starts, it doesn't stop until the shoot is wrapped up. This includes makeup touchups, wardobe changes, lighting changes, location/set changes.


Is this all correct? Please correct me if I am wrong on something (of course everyone will have different opinions).

Somebody said it would be a 'deal breaker' if a model stated that the clock starts when the call time is, or that she expects to be paid for being in the MUA chair. Models: would you be flexible with this if the photographer didn't like it? Or would you stand your ground? Photographers: Would you be willing to pay a model for this time spent, since she is taking time out of her day and is 'on the job' getting her makeup done? Or while you are setting up lights and she is ready to go, should she be paid for her time?


As with anything it should be discussed ahead of time, but yes call time is when you show up and that is when the pay starts.

Of course many don't want to pay for it if they can get out of it, but getting ready is part of the shoot, it's for the shoot, so of course it makes sense to be paid for it so imo stand your ground if needed.

Oct 09 12 01:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MoRina
Posts: 5,796
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to write out thoughtful replys! It is very appreciated smile

So, the trends in responses I'm seeing so far;

-It is best to charge half day or full day rates (there was one post about 'quarter day', which seems to be reasonable to me as well)

- The clock starts when the model arrive (on time). Time in the makeup chair is on the clock. **I noticed the only people who objected to this were photographers. Most (if not all) models said time in the chair is on the clock, and some photographers agreed as well. I'm curious about this.

- When a model is getting paid, it is a JOB, meaning no phone play or wasting time on set. Not that I ever do this anyway, I always like to have -professional- fun at a shoot smile

-When the clock starts, it doesn't stop until the shoot is wrapped up. This includes makeup touchups, wardobe changes, lighting changes, location/set changes.


Is this all correct? Please correct me if I am wrong on something (of course everyone will have different opinions).

Somebody said it would be a 'deal breaker' if a model stated that the clock starts when the call time is, or that she expects to be paid for being in the MUA chair. Models: would you be flexible with this if the photographer didn't like it? Or would you stand your ground? Photographers: Would you be willing to pay a model for this time spent, since she is taking time out of her day and is 'on the job' getting her makeup done? Or while you are setting up lights and she is ready to go, should she be paid for her time?

I think if you adhere to this, you will be fine.  Just remember to make sure that the people you shoot with understand things the same way. 

Lots of things are negotiable, just make sure that you don't make assumptions...it is pretty obvious here that some people have ideas way outside what is "normal".

Oct 09 12 02:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotoSeven
Posts: 1,194
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Kelleth wrote:
From the calltime you are given (unless you're late) to the time the shoot is wrapped (the last photo is taken).

This

Oct 09 12 02:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,815
Houston, Texas, US


William Kious wrote:

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
If I asked a model to shoot for pay and be at the studio say from 8AM until 12PM, I'd pay her for the full 4 hours.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. In my mind, that becomes a 1/4 day rate and is all-inclusive of whatever happens in that 4 hours. The issue at hand is when people choose to pay hourly (or want paid hourly.)

My time was just an example.  Even if you hired a model hourly to work for you, you pay her for the time she's there.

Going by your reasoning, if you were hired to shoot an event from 6pm-9pm and stopped for 20 minutes to eat and pee.. you'd be docked that time you weren't shooting?   Or maybe you're hired hourly for that time frame and the client tells you they need you there when a specific presentation.  They may not be interested in anything else.  So you sit for an hour waiting and boom it happens.. you get the shot deliver it and the client says, "Well, you were only shooting that presentation for 5 minutes.  So they prorate your (for instance) $100/hr fee.  So that's about $1.67 a minute.  So you get paid $8.35.   

The reality is you were there for say an hour or two waiting for the presentation and should be paid for the entire time you're there.  Your waiting around was part of the job.

Makeup is part of the job and and yes.. those that quibble about it are nit-picking and.
I consider such attitudes and practices cheap bullshit and deceptive.




William Kious wrote:

You're including that time in your calculations, I'm guessing. If I am paying the model by the hour (and paying an MUA by the hour), why should the model be paid for sitting in a chair? When a given model quotes $100/hour, and it takes an hour to complete hair and makeup, she's making $100 for sitting there and chatting with the MUA.

Another issue... are you going to pay the model for the additional hour it takes her to get to your studio? How about paying her for the drive home?

Again, the quibbles seem to arise when we pit hourly pay versus an agreed upon "block" of time. It's hourly versus salary, really. IMHO, go with a salary model and set a specific time frame. It avoids all hair splitting.

I think you're splitting hairs here and complicating the issue.
From looking at your page, you seem to be a wedding/portrait guy. So if youre hired to shoot a wedding in town, I doubt you charge for gas/time.   But if you were hired to shoot that same wedding 50 or 100 miles away, you're probably add bit for extra time and gas.

Paying for travel can be discussed. It's part of the model's job to dictate her terms.
Salaried, hourly, 1/2, 1/4 doesn't matter how you say it.  When you hire a person to be at a particular place for a particular time and they show up on time and perform as you need to get the job done..(makeup time,  clothing changes, even sitting to rest, pee or have lunch, is all included. It's part of the job and they are owed the money.

Oct 11 12 07:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,792
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


What I see is standards for a commercial shoot and those are not necessarily what many on MM are doing.

Commercial where *everybody* is getting paid, is from call to wrap.

However for most of us it is a different issue. We are not making money, and are only hoping to maybe, possibly, some day in the future, make back some of our expenses. And here it gets bloody muddy.
Some do not pay until the model steps in front of the camera.
Others do 1/2 rate for MU or bodypaint.

If you are expecting full commercial standard rates from me, then you need to expect to face a full, all inclusive commercial model release (including rights to the first born).

As others (many others) have said, make sure it is properly discussed beforehand.
Oct 11 12 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R O S E S M O D E L S
Posts: 23
Antelope, California, US


When you are paid by the hour you should go by just that by the hour no matter if you're getting ready or you are shooting
Oct 12 12 11:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Aperture Studio
Posts: 95
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Orcatek Photography wrote:
If you are to show up camera ready, then the clock starts when you are camera ready.   If hair/make-up is being provided, then time starts when you arrive on set ready to work.  Working includes having your hair and make-up done.

Agree ahead.

I agree 100%. Barring any other arrangement with the photographer, the model is paid for his/her time. Time starts when the model is scheduled to be at the photo shoot. If the photographer wants make-up or wardrobe then that is on the photographer's dime. It is all part and parcel of a photo shoot and running any business.

Nov 04 12 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
first123   Search   Reply