Beautifully Broke wrote:
so what am I doing wrong?

Note:  haven't looked at your portfolio -- this is not any kind of critique.

Dunno.  But if you will allow me to speculate...

...  Modeling is a competitive business -- perhaps photographers can find models as suitable (or more suitable) than you for cheap(er)?

...  Perhaps (judging from this thread's title) you are too short?

...  Perhaps you aren't reaching the kind of photographers who pay models?

...  Perhaps your networking is not good enough?

In short, it might be about you, or it might be about your competition.  I don't know the marketplace where you live.

Gary Melton wrote:

It was okay...pretty much "white bread", middle America, average, "middle of the road", "nothing to distinguish it"...Ontario has SO much more going for it...

Didn't notice that. Guess thats cause Im not "average" nor do I value my worth in where I live. Its a roof over my head is all. If I cared so much for a location status, Id live somewhere more "upscale".

I also like Ontario. It's a nice area as well, friendly people for the most part

Jojo West wrote:
I'm no expert at this, but personally I wouldn't list the actual rates on your profile. It's not a good sales/marketing technique (part of my day job).

As a model, in your area especially, you have to have more to offer than just your look, so you should try to get a dialog started with someone who's interested. If they go to your profile, and they were budgeting lower than your rates, they immediately move on. If you get a dialog going, little things like your flexibility, willingness to work with them, or personality (from what they can tell) may help you close the deal.

This is from my profile, it's worked out well for me, it's just an example:

"If you're interested in shooting nudes, implied nudes or fetish, my rates are very reasonable, unless you have stunning work, my clothes don't come off for free. You can also make me an offer and we can go from there. Willing to do TF work if it will benefit my portfolio. TF work with full team will take priority."

Thanks Jojo, I'll take that into consideration as well

Gary Melton wrote:
It was okay...pretty much "white bread", middle America, average, "middle of the road", "nothing to distinguish it"...Ontario has SO much more going for it...

Beautifully Broke wrote:
Didn't notice that. Guess thats cause Im not "average" nor do I value my worth in where I live. Its a roof over my head is all. If I cared so much for a location status, Id live somewhere more "upscale".

I also like Ontario. It's a nice area as well, friendly people for the most part

...it was all just a flail at humor...

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Note:  haven't looked at your portfolio -- this is not any kind of critique.

Dunno.  But if you will allow me to speculate...

...  Modeling is a competitive business -- perhaps photographers can find models as suitable (or more suitable) than you for cheap(er)?

...  Perhaps (judging from this thread's title) you are too short?

...  Perhaps you aren't reaching the kind of photographers who pay models?

...  Perhaps your networking is not good enough?

In short, it might be about you, or it might be about your competition.  I don't know the marketplace where you live.

Looknsee,
Thanks.

Where I LIVE has nothing/little to offer. My competition is OC/LA area, which is quite broad as well as competitive!

I am less than "average" height but I feel my work should speak for itsself. Sure, you can book the gal thats taller than me, but she needs far too much direction
You can choose to TF another professional, but she's known to flake...

Guess its up to what an artist is seeking in a model, huh?

Thanks for the input!

Michael McGowan wrote:
I think too many models seek to "score." They are looking for big paydays and, it appears, glorious shoots.

Fact of life is that most people don't get that. Independent models don't make a lot of money in a year.

But, using a friend's business plan, it's entirely possible for models to make more. In his plan, they work for less but work a lot more. Some models in this thread have noted that their rates vary and usually start at a lower rate than yours.

At $600-800 per day, you may get the occasional nibble.

Yet, if you're shooting $25 an hour for portrait/stock photos, you might be able to make $200 a day several days per week. You might also get a few art nude shoots at $75 an hour.

If you're working regularly at a lower rate, you (a) keep busy and (b) make more money in the course of a year.

Here's the key element, though: When you find that you're too busy and too popular, it's time to raise rates. In that situation, you should be able to go up to, say $30 for stock shots and $100 for nudes.

FYI, editorial hardly ever pays what you're asking. Lots of times the bigger magazines get the photos for nothing or next to nothing just because photographers want to be published.

However, catalog work ought to make you money. It's commercial.

Anyhow, several models I know used something similar to my friend's business model to grow their brand. As their popularity grew, their rates gradually increased. That kept them viable for years.

Thanks, Michael..I'll note this and see what works best for me as well.
Revising the portfolio as we speak

Small Fruit Pits wrote:
If your avatar attracted me in a search to click on it......after scanning over your written profile, I wouldn't even peek inside. 

To me, it screams possible drama & attitude. There are plenty of other folks on here, it's not worth the risk of headaches.

IMHO I would scrap the entire thing, re-write it, and keep it down to 1-2 short sweet & simple paragraphs. What you're trying to avoid with a lot of the crape you wrote, won't matter because a good portion of folks on here won't read it anyhow.

And the ones who won't read, can often be folks you might wish to avoid anyhow. But in the meantime you alienate other folks who do read.

agreed. I got dizzy reading all the info in the profile. consider writing a page with most of that info and saving it on your computer. when you have a contact, send them the "info page" in email ? not sure if this helps? best wishes!

DG at studio47 wrote:

agreed. I got dizzy reading all the info in the profile. consider writing a page with most of that info and saving it on your computer. when you have a contact, send them the "info page" in email ? not sure if this helps? best wishes!

Thanks DG, I will consider doing that.

Melodye Joy wrote:
2) I'm sorry to disappoint, but I don't feel the need to show my body off in order to get published, get paid or get noticed..period.

Then at 5'2" you need to accept that paydays from modelling will be few and far between. That's just a fact of internet modelling, especially here on MM.

Additionally, a snarky attitude is not going to help you get bookings. I'm NOT disappointed that you don't shoot nudes as I don't live in your area, you're too short and too tattooed for me to work with anyway and I've seen enough random T&A on the internet today already, thanks!




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Augustine York wrote:
Well you say here that you are flexible in your rates, but your profile says that are not negotiable.

From my experience, quoting rates based on an 8+ hour day is not realistic. Most are looking to shoot 2-4 hours.

People don't want to shell out $600 for implied nudes... why would they? Even at an 8 hour day that's still $75 per HOUR... I don't know what your area is like, but I do full nudes for that amount and sometimes even less, and I generally quote starting at 2 hours. And I don't ask for any sort of deposit either. The result is much more palatable number for most.

Look at it from the photographers perspective...

Model A it 5'2,  and doesn't shoot nudes. You can hire her for implied nudes for a full day of shooting (which you probably don't need) for $600 + deposit. According to her profile that number is non negotiable.

Model B is 5'2, and shoots full nudes. You can hire her full nudes for $40-$75/hr with a two hour minimum, no deposit. These numbers are also negotiable.

Most are going to choose the second model.

And in the larger areas such as LA and New York, you can't leave out Model C who may be anywhere from 4'11" to 6'0" and is happy to shoot full nudes for trade with anyone that can give her quality pictures in return so that she can enter the ranks of those charging $50.00 to $100.00 per hour.

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

Then at 5'2" you need to accept that paydays from modelling will be few and far between. That's just a fact of internet modelling, especially here on MM.

Additionally, a snarky attitude is not going to help you get bookings. I'm NOT disappointed that you don't shoot nudes as I don't live in your area, you're too short and too tattooed for me to work with anyway and I've seen enough random T&A on the internet today already, thanks!




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

That is true, Stefano. The paid work is going to be far and between, for any model and perhaps a tougher sell as I am a petite.

And I wasn't being snarkey, so my apologies if it came off in that manner. I was being blunt and truthful. I don't feel the need to show my body for a paid gig. I'd like to walk my own path and wither far and between, get the paid gig that pertains to creativity in fashion or beauty.

Thanks again, Stefano.

Rays Fine Art wrote:

And in the larger areas such as LA and New York, you can't leave out Model C who may be anywhere from 4'11" to 6'0" and is happy to shoot full nudes for trade with anyone that can give her quality pictures in return so that she can enter the ranks of those charging $50.00 to $100.00 per hour.

This is also quite true, Ray.

Thanks!

Melodye Joy wrote:

Thanks for that. Reason being is that my last art/nude project was over a year ago and my porfolio has ovbiously changed since. I also have some implied images yet to be posted as they are pending for publication.

If someone wanted to fully go through my portfolio, they would find artistic images on my website, facebook, also under MM credits from a specific artist that I have done art/implied for in past.

Thanks for the input, Maine

You need to put some of those FB and website images in your MM portfolio. Each portfolio wherever it is located, should be complete, or at least illustrate what that site has listed for genre. If you have them on FB, why not on MM? If you have nothing to post regarding implieds due to publication restraints, why not do a shoot or two with a local photographer in order to have something in your portfolio in the interim?

Melodye Joy wrote:
As a model, I find it difficult to get any PAID work.

My resume keeps adding up, my expertise grows with each shoot...so what am I doing wrong?

My rates are both flexiable and reasonable, I believe.....



What am I doing wrong?!  Am I not worthy of being PAID for a service provided? Or am I just a push over when it comes to TF/Free/Buy me coffee and I'll be there type shoots?!

Perhaps you have misjudged the market price wise and perhaps your portfolio misses your target market.

Melodye Joy wrote:
1) Thank you, that was exactly what I needed an answer on, I am considering everyone's suggestions and should have a revised portfolio later on.

It would be best to revised your profile now because you don't second chances to make 1st impressions.

Melodye Joy wrote:
2) Im sorry to disappoint, but I don't feel the need to show my body off in order to get published, get paid or get noticed..period.

If you read this article(BTW: 18+ images), you'll see one of the biggest myth about nudity and modeling get debunked.

Melodye Joy wrote:
3) Professional profile with a lot of "conditions" because it seems far too often people who are "professional" don't bother reading information that is pertinate or note worthy. At least it's out there now, rather than someone finding out later cause "oops, I forgot to tell you/by the way" is a worse shut door, yes?

Sounds like cutting off the nose to spike the face. By putting those "conditions" out there, you made it easy for those to find someone without "conditions". As I said earlier, you don't get 2nd chances to make 1st impressions. Modeling is a competitive business, and your profile should to attract, not detract potential clients.

Melodye Joy wrote:
4 & 5) the booking fee goes towards the rate and the rate was on a daily basis only due past experience. That is something I am considering changing shortly. Thanks!

You need to change it because most folks will see this as nickel and diming them. Also, If you're not getting enough work your 8 hour minimum and deposit request, shouldn't that tell you those conditions need to be eliminated. If you keep doing the same things over and over, you'll keep getting the same results.

Melodye Joy wrote:
6) My last implied/nude shoot was two years ago. I have a different look now, I am 28 and not 26, I have 12 tattoos and not 3...the portfolio has changed as I have changed. Your welcome to view older doings in other social media or my website, but that's up to you.

When I look for a model, I always look for their most recent work, regardless of content. If a model last shoot, nude or non-nude, is more than a year old, it tells me their not doing that type of modeling right now and find someone who's currently does that type of work. What people are telling you that your profile need to change, if you want your modeling career to move forward.

Melodye Joy wrote:
I am less than "average" height but I feel my work should speak for itsself. Sure, you can book the gal thats taller than me, but she needs far too much direction
You can choose to TF another professional, but she's known to flake...

Guess its up to what an artist is seeking in a model, huh?

that's condescending... you really think there aren't any taller, younger, professional models out there with lower rates than you?

nyk fury wrote:
there is hardly any 'body' in your port!

No disrespect, this is true, you need a stronger port,is one thing I would say,. Check your rates is another,,,Per/hr maybe the way to go for you. 6 hr shooting day is the max for most photographers. The last and main thing I would say is STOP  FREE,,, it is really hard to get paid when everyone knows they can get a shoot out of you for a COFFEE. Really you charge 100/hr or a coffee,,,, see how it sounds... Work on getting a stronger port, buy your own coffee and the first thing out of your mouth when soneone wants to shoot is your hrly rate.
My 2cents

nyk fury wrote:
there is hardly any 'body' in your port!

Your meaning, NYK Fury?
That I have quite a bit of beauty versus fashion or otherwise?

Please ellaborate, any suggestion is helpful.

Thanks!

bmiSTUDIO wrote:

You need to put some of those FB and website images in your MM portfolio. Each portfolio wherever it is located, should be complete, or at least illustrate what that site has listed for genre. If you have them on FB, why not on MM? If you have nothing to post regarding implieds due to publication restraints, why not do a shoot or two with a local photographer in order to have something in your portfolio in the interim?

bmiSTUDIO,
Even though they are 2 yrs old and I have changed quite a bit? Or is that far too long a streach concerning the "latest" implied/nude/art photos I have done??

I could do a new series just to post but I am particular with whom and the good guys/true photographers are far and between when it comes to implied/nude/art..and again, though I have experience in the field, I don't really want that to be a basis in my modeling.
I will seek further though and see what I can do, thanks

NewBoldPhoto wrote:

Perhaps you have misjudged the market price wise and perhaps your portfolio misses your target market.

Perhaps...I will have to see what I can or should do marketing wise, Thanks!

Caustic Disco wrote:
how much a service is "worth" depends on how much someone is willing to pay for it. maybe try lowering your rates? (not saying you SHOULD lower them, but you'd probably get more jobs, and some is better than none).

Thanks for the suggestion, Caustic.

I have since lowered my rates and I am continuing to revise my portfolio through the weekend.

Thanks!

Moore Photo Graphix wrote:

Melodye Joy wrote:
1) Thank you, that was exactly what I needed an answer on, I am considering everyone's suggestions and should have a revised portfolio later on.

It would be best to revised your profile now because you don't second chances to make 1st impressions.

Melodye Joy wrote:
2) Im sorry to disappoint, but I don't feel the need to show my body off in order to get published, get paid or get noticed..period.

If you read this article(BTW: 18+ images), you'll see one of the biggest myth about nudity and modeling get debunked.

Melodye Joy wrote:
3) Professional profile with a lot of "conditions" because it seems far too often people who are "professional" don't bother reading information that is pertinate or note worthy. At least it's out there now, rather than someone finding out later cause "oops, I forgot to tell you/by the way" is a worse shut door, yes?

Sounds like cutting off the nose to spike the face. By putting those "conditions" out there, you made it easy for those to find someone without "conditions". As I said earlier, you don't get 2nd chances to make 1st impressions. Modeling is a competitive business, and your profile should to attract, not detract potential clients.

Melodye Joy wrote:
4 & 5) the booking fee goes towards the rate and the rate was on a daily basis only due past experience. That is something I am considering changing shortly. Thanks!

You need to change it because most folks will see this as nickel and diming them. Also, If you're not getting enough work your 8 hour minimum and deposit request, shouldn't that tell you those conditions need to be eliminated. If you keep doing the same things over and over, you'll keep getting the same results.


When I look for a model, I always look for their most recent work, regardless of content. If a model last shoot, nude or non-nude, is more than a year old, it tells me their not doing that type of modeling right now and find someone who's currently does that type of work. What people are telling you that your profile need to change, if you want your modeling career to move forward.

Thank you for the input, Moore Photo.

DMesser Photography wrote:
This may not apply to what your asking since i'm mainly a hobbyist that does TF.  But, I also travel to my models.  I have paid models, but only for full nude (not erotic).  I have no problem finding models who want pics for their ports who will pose for TF.  I understand models charging an hourly rate for nudes, and if I want to shoot them, then I pay if I can afford it.   If your rates are affordable hourly and negotiable, I can see no reason why you can't get paid.  Just realize, if you don't do nude, but only implied, your competing against a lot of girls who do TF implied.  Don

I don't need to compete against anyone who does nude/implied. That isn't a field I have a passion for. If the opertunity arose, I would consider, but otherwise, it's something I don't really prefer.

You can also see my recent revisions in my portfolio that say very little of nude/implied work.

Thanks!

Anna Adrielle wrote:

that's condescending... you really think there aren't any taller, younger, professional models out there with lower rates than you?

Perhaps, but I must do what I feel is best for myself concerning my rates and what I need to do.

I have taken most suggestions and revised my portfolio and rates, but if you feel $25-100 is too much still, concerning a models rates, that is your personal preferance.

Thanks for the suggestions!

E H wrote:

No disrespect, this is true, you need a stronger port,is one thing I would say,. Check your rates is another,,,Per/hr maybe the way to go for you. 6 hr shooting day is the max for most photographers. The last and main thing I would say is STOP  FREE,,, it is really hard to get paid when everyone knows they can get a shoot out of you for a COFFEE. Really you charge 100/hr or a coffee,,,, see how it sounds... Work on getting a stronger port, buy your own coffee and the first thing out of your mouth when soneone wants to shoot is your hrly rate.
My 2cents

Thanks, E H
How would you suggest I make the port stronger? I have quite a few varied looks, I have posted published work as well...please enlighten me? Everyone does their port diferently and it's an ever learning task to get "right". Any suggestion would be helpful Im sure.

I have sense changed rates and I have yet to accept a TF project, let alone a paid inqiry ..for now, it is all a waiting game.

Thanks much!

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I don't mean this to be disrespectful at all (I know that's a bad intro) but...who is your clientele?

If it's individual photographers, OK. But that also would answer your question because you can only make so much money hitting up local photographers for paid work. Even of those who are willing to pay, is there a lot of repeat business...enough to sustain you? It sounds like the answer is no.

So, other than those individuals, what is there? I can't think of a situation where a client would hire a 5'2", 28 year-old independent model. For the majority of commercial work clients are going through agencies.

Unless your marketing yourself directly to those commercial clients (which would require extensive research on who those clients are) in hopes they select you over making a call to an Agency and trusting them to deliver a suitable model, I don't see a lot of market share for you in that area.

Edit: and I would suggest being careful to market yourself to commercial clients as a Petite model. Short is not Petite in most commercial circles. And 5'2" is far short of the Petite standard.

Hi Michael,
My clientele is open to whomever wishes to collaborate. I keep an open mind as well as a barrier when it comes to any shoot, nude or non-nude.

My hopes were to strive for the fellow independent artist that is also in their own business, and then work up by word of mouth and a stable portfolio towards the larger companies/commerical clientele.

In my research, I have found petite to start from 5'0-5'5", depending on the person/business you ask. Perhaps my wording as a petite model is a throw off, being that I am SHORT?..hmm..you gave me more to think about.

Thanks!

Dekilah wrote:
I think a big part of success is knowing your market. Then if you are not currently successful in that market you either have to adapt, accept it, or change markets.

I have learned that here in Detroit, people shoot a lot, but they very rarely pay. I could drop my rates down to even $25 an hour and I still doubt I would be shooting much, and even then maybe only for an hour or two. That just is not worth it for me, especially since I have to have a driver (I do not drive).

So I adapted. I shoot myself and post sets on Zivity. I make more doing that then I ever have posing for others. Still not a ton, but giving my circumstances (particularly that I do not travel) I think it is a pretty good outcome.

In your case I would look at these factors:
1. How often do you get paid your rates? If it is not very often, then you need to consider lowering them.

2. What are other similar models/competing models in your area charging? If you can tell which of them are booking the most paid work, study them especially.

3. If you are depending on modeling for income, you may want to look at expanding in some other direction(s) as well.

4. Consider your networking and promotions as well. For example, in my area people seem to use FB to cast a lot more often than MM. Back in my old market (East TN), word of mouth was a big thing and castings were posted more on MM.

One other thing I have noticed, and this may be less true for you since you shoot different styles, is that some individual photographers often will only pay to shoot an given model once. So things start out very busy for a new model or new to the area model, but then they die down after you shoot with a bunch of people.

Thanks for the suggestions, Dekilah

howard r wrote:
ultimately the marketplace will give you all the feedback you need regarding rates. you may not like the answer but you are worth what you can get people to pay you. that's not to say proper marketing can't help, because it can. but it can only help so much.

second thing to think about is would you still want to llama if there was no money involved, just for the joy of creating something cool? in the answer is "yes", then you might want to approach it more like a hobby that you're very passionate about. but remember, most hobbies are not money makers. in fact, most hobbies cost money.

whatever you decide, good luck.

Thanks for the input, Howard

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Your rates are very high, especially the implied/artistic rates, and especially considering your portfolio greatly lacks in photos of that genre to convince someone that you can actually pose for that genre.

Also, your 'stylist fee' is freaking ridiculous. First of all, YOU will not be booking the stylist. It is the client/photographers vision they are hiring you for, so it is their call on who THEY book. Second, $250/stylist - are you kidding me?? A flat rate like that, without any consideration to the level of skill of the stylist, hours they would be hired or what they would be doing is laughable. Take that out, it makes you look like a joke and tells your prospective clients that you really dont know how anything works here.

Unfortunately, Rachael, in my area I have come across photographers or even stylists that want to collaborate, but then they require that I find a stylist/wardrobe/photographer for us to do said collaboration.
This is the reason that I have a fee for a stylist/wardrobe pull, if I need to book any other artist for a shoot.
That fee is an inbetween/agreeable "standard fee" with whom I have worked within the LA/OC area this year, so far.

I will do further research and ask my fellow artists what may be more approperate.

Thanks

Melodye Joy wrote:
...
Unfortunately, Rachael, in my area I have come across photographers or even stylists that want to collaborate, but then they require that I find a stylist/wardrobe/photographer for us to do said collaboration.
...

Why do you think the onus is being put on you to take care of lining up the other collaborators?

Melodye Joy wrote:
As a model, I find it difficult to get any PAID work.

My resume keeps adding up, my expertise grows with each shoot...so what am I doing wrong?

My rates are both flexiable and reasonable, I believe.....

-They are based on a full 8-12 hr day shoot

-They are broken down to three types; portfolio, editorial, implied/artistic

-They each include travel expense (local up to 2hrs away)

I also know how our individual lives are and I note a willingness to proceed with a small $25 down payment (average half the fuel it would take to get to said shoot) and up to 90 days for full payment (check, money order, transfer, ect)....

What am I doing wrong?!  Am I not worthy of being PAID for a service provided? Or am I just a push over when it comes to TF/Free/Buy me coffee and I'll be there type shoots?!

Any advice would be wonderful!
xo
Bless!

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