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first123last
Photographer
MN camera
Posts: 1,860
Saint Paul, Minnesota, US


There is no ethics question involved here, only a communication question and a conduct question.

Communication: You specifically said you wanted double-boxing.  The seller, without asking for clarification or notification, took it elsewhere for double-boxing and is passing the cost along to you. 

That's part of the communication question, their not clarifying things.

Here's the other part: You didn't ask about their packing and shipping practices.  You told them to double-box it.  And given your original posting and followup tone here, the nature of your tone dealing with them is a fair question.  Maybe you're getting an annoyance upcharge.  Not the first time it's ever been imposed in some form or another.

The conduct question, on the other hand, is quite simple: Did you specify a particular sort of work be done?  If so, pay for it.
Feb 14 13 04:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Gianantonio wrote:
Yes. You asked for opinions. But that's not all you did. You have been defending your pov. That indicates you do care what others think of you. Asking others' opinions suggests the same thing. I realize you might not understand yourself enough to see that. But you wouldn't have made the op if you weren't looking for some sort of validation.

I haven't been "defending" anything.  I've only stated my perspective on things.  I asked the question to get an idea of what others think of the situation.  If that's wrong, sorry.  I wasn't looking for validation.  I was looking for opinions.  If more people agreed with me, it wouldn't change how I feel about the situation right now.  Because everyone (seemingly) diagrees, my feelings still aren't going to change right now.

  If it's not apparent yet, I'll make it obvious.  I don't care what others think about me and/or my opinions.  Asking for said opinions doesn't mean that I care what others think of me, IMO.  If that's what most people think it means, well, I'll just drop back out of the forums again.

Feb 14 13 04:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
jesse paulk
Posts: 3,563
Phoenix, Arizona, US


stop being a cheap ass and pay the $12.  you asked for special treatment, the guy did not tell you to go fuck yourself, he obliged.
Feb 14 13 04:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
jesse paulk
Posts: 3,563
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:

I haven't been "defending" anything.  I've only stated my perspective on things.  I asked the question to get an idea of what others think of the situation.  If that's wrong, sorry.  I wasn't looking for validation.  I was looking for opinions.  If more people agreed with me, it wouldn't change how I feel about the situation right now.  Because everyone (seemingly) diagrees, my feelings still aren't going to change right now.

  If it's not apparent yet, I'll make it obvious.  I don't care what others think about me and/or my opinions.  Asking for said opinions doesn't mean that I care what others think of me, IMO.  If that's what most people think it means, well, I'll just drop back out of the forums again.

so we can go fuck ourselves? thats cool

Feb 14 13 04:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
jesse paulk
Posts: 3,563
Phoenix, Arizona, US


mm fix ur shit gawd DP
Feb 14 13 04:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vito
Posts: 4,086
Brooklyn, New York, US


Hey dude! The seller DOES NOT buy the insurance. If you want insurance, it's extra. It's right there on eBay. It's an option the seller can offer FOR A PRICE!

If the seller felt that he/she could have shipped it in a single box (packed inside) and you tell him you want a double box and whatever else, THAT'S YOUR EXPENSE.

I'm cheap, but even I know you should pay for your "special request".
Feb 14 13 04:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GK photo
Posts: 26,717
Laguna Beach, California, US


now you've gone and pissed off a guy named vito from brooklyn! happy?
Feb 14 13 04:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gianantonio
Posts: 7,712
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
I haven't been "defending" anything.  I've only stated my perspective on things.  I asked the question to get an idea of what others think of the situation.  If that's wrong, sorry.  I wasn't looking for validation.  I was looking for opinions.  If more people agreed with me, it wouldn't change how I feel about the situation right now.  Because everyone (seemingly) diagrees, my feelings still aren't going to change right now.

  If it's not apparent yet, I'll make it obvious.  I don't care what others think about me and/or my opinions.  Asking for said opinions doesn't mean that I care what others think of me, IMO.  If that's what most people think it means, well, I'll just drop back out of the forums again.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't be responding...

And why would you change your behavior based on others' perceptions if you don't care what they think of you?  hmm

Feb 14 13 05:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Mischa Marie
Posts: 7,891
Sacramento, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
This is my thinking:  no matter what I ask for, it's up to the seller to ensure that the item is packed adequately enough to get to me in one working piece or refund my money.  Just because I ask for double boxing doesn't mean they have to give it to me (it doesn't matter if the item is double boxed or not as long as the items arrive intact).  Taking these things to a FedEx (or UPS) store to be packaged for them is inviting highway robbery.

  One can go to a supermarket (most of the time) and get all the free and sturdy boxes they can shake a stick at for a day.  $12 because they invited someone else to do the packaging is crazy to me.  Even if they gave me what I asked for, $12 is far more money than is necessary.

So now you expect them to ask for extra boxes at the grocery store? Geeze. Just pay up and stop being cheap. Shipping is not cheap. And even if they boxed it themselves, it probably would have cost extra due to the added size and weight anyways. Either way you cost them more money.

Feb 14 13 07:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Richard Dubois Nudes
Posts: 520
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Lovely Day Media wrote:
If this means I don't get it, I'm okay with that.  It's not the first time I disagree with seemingly everyone on a particular topic.

Obviously.

Lovely Day Media wrote:
If it's not apparent yet, I'll make it obvious.  I don't care what others think about me and/or my opinions.  Asking for said opinions doesn't mean that I care what others think of me, IMO.  If that's what most people think it means, well, I'll just drop back out of the forums again.

Then it would appear the only reason for this thread is, in fact, to gain validation for your argument, which you did not get.  Next time you're the only one in disagreement with everyone else on a particular topic, consider that maybe it's because you're dead wrong.  Or just dig your heels in and "drop back" again, your choice.

Feb 14 13 07:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,562
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Weird, UPS double boxes insured and breakables on their own anyway.
Feb 14 13 07:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GeM Photographic
Posts: 2,318
Chicago, Illinois, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:

This thread is/was a quest for the opinions of others.  Agree or disagree doesn't matter but the decision has already been made.

The universal response is "you asked for extra, cough up the bucks"

borat

/thread

Feb 14 13 09:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


For those of you keeping score, my "wine glasses" showed up today.  They aren't broken. They were double boxed.  They used balled up newspaper for packing materials.  The packing job certainly wasn't worth $12 if you ask me.
Feb 19 13 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vintagevista
Posts: 10,343
Sun City, California, US


Pretty simple really - I used to work with Ebay and have seen about every dodge and swindle out there.

This is not one of them - and it is customers that pull this kind of stunt that made certain I stopped selling on Ebay, long before I left for good.

The seller is assumed to know how to send wine glasses as part of a transaction - at a fixed price.

You asked for something else and additional.  Not their idea - yours. And you got what you asked for

You want special treatment you pay the special price -
Feb 19 13 01:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
For those of you keeping score, my "wine glasses" showed up today.  They aren't broken. They were double boxed.  They used balled up newspaper for packing materials.  The packing job certainly wasn't worth $12 if you ask me.

The glasses arrived unbroken. The $12 appears to have been worth it.

Final score: Results 1, Cheapskate 0.

Feb 19 13 01:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 35,189
Columbus, Ohio, US


http://www.vinylrecords.ch/J/JE/Jethro_Tull/Thick_DE/thick-brick-10.jpg
Feb 19 13 01:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
The glasses arrived unbroken. The $12 appears to have been worth it.

Final score: Results 1, Cheapskate 0.

Final tally:  "cheapskate" 0, idiot who opted to let FedEx pack the item instead of doing it themselves, -$12.

Feb 19 13 01:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vintagevista
Posts: 10,343
Sun City, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
Final tally:  "cheapskate" 0, idiot who opted to let FedEx pack the item instead of doing it themselves, -$12.

Well, we now have the conclusion, regarding the question of "Ethics"

Feb 19 13 02:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Vintagevista wrote:

Well, we now have the conclusion, regarding the question of "Ethics"

No kidding!

He asked for the special packaging, then decided he didn't want to pay for it.

Feb 19 13 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:

Final tally:  "cheapskate" 0, idiot who opted to let FedEx pack the item instead of doing it themselves, -$12.

He would have been in the right to charge you the extra money regardless of whether he did the extra packaging to FedEx did.

Feb 19 13 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
jesse paulk
Posts: 3,563
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:

Final tally:  "cheapskate" 0, idiot who opted to let FedEx pack the item instead of doing it themselves, -$12.

dont forget totally impressing everyone here, thats gotta be worth something too

Feb 19 13 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
Final tally:  "cheapskate" 0, idiot who opted to let FedEx pack the item instead of doing it themselves, -$12.

The idiot who trusted you to deal with him in a fair and professional manner.

Feb 19 13 04:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
No kidding!

He asked for the special packaging, then decided he didn't want to pay for it.

If the idiot had said upfront it was going to cost another $12, I would've said never mind.  They just opted to do it ... and there is no proof it cost an extra $12.  The item I got was relatively light and I had already paid $20 for shipping. 

  I can buy those boxes for 25 cents and balled up newspaper is something I throw out just about every day (it's not yet balled up, but that only takes 5 seconds or so).  Even if I had to pay $2 for the box, why is it $12?  If you all want to throw your money away, you go right ahead.

Feb 19 13 06:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:

If the idiot had said upfront it was going to cost another $12, I would've said never mind.  They just opted to do it ... and there is no proof it cost an extra $12.  The item I got was relatively light and I had already paid $20 for shipping. 

  I can buy those boxes for 25 cents and balled up newspaper is something I throw out just about every day (it's not yet balled up, but that only takes 5 seconds or so).  Even if I had to pay $2 for the box, why is it $12?  If you all want to throw your money away, you go right ahead.

Rationalize, rationalize, rationalize. You should've just cancelled the order.

Feb 19 13 07:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cait Chan
Posts: 6,272
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Mnemosyne Photography wrote:
Weird, UPS double boxes insured and breakables on their own anyway.

I had a UPS shipping desk when I worked at Staples, and this was not the standard.

If you are buying the box from them you pay for each box. A shipper would usually pay for insurance AFTER the item waa boxed and ready to go while I was putting together the shipping label. An item being insured does not automatically mean fragile.

If it were fragile, we would label it that way.

Feb 19 13 08:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cait Chan
Posts: 6,272
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:

If the idiot had said upfront it was going to cost another $12, I would've said never mind.  They just opted to do it ... and there is no proof it cost an extra $12.  The item I got was relatively light and I had already paid $20 for shipping. 

  I can buy those boxes for 25 cents and balled up newspaper is something I throw out just about every day (it's not yet balled up, but that only takes 5 seconds or so).  Even if I had to pay $2 for the box, why is it $12?  If you all want to throw your money away, you go right ahead.

I'm sure the 'idiot' didnt know it was 12 until he went to ship it. Since he was shipping it then and there and his customer was making a special request he fulfilled it.

If anything, he's a fool. He's a fool to think that he could fulfill a special request and someone would have the integrity to pay for it.

Ebay offers insurance when checking out. You could have opted for it. You could have asked the seller how much the extra box would cost.

You most likely ( by your conduct here) demanded the box and he felt he couldnt ship it to you unless he met your request.


You need to take responsibility for your terrible communication and lack of follow through. You also should put on your big boy pants,pay the guy and realize that maybe you should learn a lesson from this...

Feb 19 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RennsportPhotography
Posts: 17,916
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


Small Fruit Pits wrote:

I've been packing antique glass worth hundreds, and sometimes thousands of dollars per item for years. I rarely double box and nothing has ever been broken due to my packing. In other words, I know what I'm doing.

If you want something double boxed, do you think I'm going to run all over town and do that myself? No, I'm going to take it to the closest packager and you're gonna pay the bill, whatever it is.

Why are you such a special sauce to think I'm going to visit untold amounts of stores just to find you the right size box, plus the extra packing material that will go with that?

This

Most people do not know how to pack things for shipping.

Feb 19 13 08:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Cait Chan wrote:
I'm sure the 'idiot' didnt know it was 12 until he went to ship it. Since he was shipping it then and there and his customer was making a special request he fulfilled it.

If anything, he's a fool. He's a fool to think that he could fulfill a special request and someone would have the integrity to pay for it.

Ebay offers insurance when checking out. You could have opted for it. You could have asked the seller how much the extra box would cost.

You most likely ( by your conduct here) demanded the box and he felt he couldnt ship it to you unless he met your request.


You need to take responsibility for your terrible communication and lack of follow through. You also should put on your big boy pants,pay the guy and realize that maybe you should learn a lesson from this...

Fool, idiot, same thing.  I didn't demand ... I asked.  There is a difference.  He could've said no.  He could've said he wasn't boxing the thing himself and it would be extra money.  He could've ... all sorts of things.  If it had been $5, I'd just go ahead and pay it.  $12 for a box is outrageous to me.  A good portion of me doesn't believe it cost him an extra $12.  I think the item went for too cheap a price and he's trying to make up for it.  It has happened before.

Feb 19 13 09:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelli
Posts: 23,967
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


No offence, but you are the type of EBay buyer I really hate to deal with. I'm a buyer and seller and I would never give someone the hard time you've given this seller over something like that. It's buyers like that make me rather not sell on EBay at all.
Feb 19 13 09:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strangekitty
Posts: 12,857
New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada


Sigh.
OP is a cheapskate, let's just all move on. He assumes everyone thinks like himself, and is personally affronted when *gasp* we don't agree.
Feb 19 13 09:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Kelli wrote:
No offence, but you are the type of EBay buyer I really hate to deal with. I'm a buyer and seller and I would never give someone the hard time you've given this seller over something like that. It's buyers like that make me rather not sell on EBay at all.

I'm wondering if he conducts his photography business with the same level of integrity.

Feb 19 13 09:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Kelli wrote:
No offence, but you are the type of EBay buyer I really hate to deal with. I'm a buyer and seller and I would never give someone the hard time you've given this seller over something like that. It's buyers like that make me rather not sell on EBay at all.

I'm also one who buys and sells on eBay.  I think of it this way:  there are many different types of people in the world and I'll run into all of them at one time or another if I stay on eBay long enough.  I've been there since 1999 so I like to think I've run into many of them.

  Some people are easier to deal with than others.  For instance, I bought an air conditioner compressor once.  The starting bid was $.01.  The seller set the shipping price at $16 and no reserve.  I bid $1.  No one else did, so I "win".  2 days later, the seller emails me and says that if I haven't already sent the money, don't, because the shipping isn't going to be $16.  It's going to be $38.  Needless to say, I didn't pay $38 to ship the thing.  He just wanted to make up for the low item price.

  I didn't account for getting negative feedback out of the deal (because he wanted to change the terms after the fact) but hey, stuff happens.

  In this case, the seller set the shipping price at $20.  I asked for double boxing as it's normally not that big a deal.  If the seller had said it would be an extra $12 for that, I'd have said "no way, I'll take my chances", but they didn't.  I've only obliged myself to pay whatever the bid price is and whatever the shipping price is that the seller set.  If he wanted more for double boxing, he should've said so before paying it out (if he paid it out) and expecting me to pay.

  It doesn't bother me in the least that everyone disagrees.  As I said, everyone is free to spend their money how they like.  Just because you all think that $12 is reasonable (if it weren't, you wouldn't pay it, I'd imagine) and it actually cost $12 for an extra box (no additional packing materials) with no proof isn't reason enough for me to shell out the extra money.  How much can they realistically charge for a box?

  I didn't give the seller a hard time.  I asked if the item could be double boxed.  I didn't say anything else. He sent me the message saying that if I'm going to ask for double boxing, I should think about paying extra for it because it cost him an extra $12.  He didn't say "pay me the $12" and even if he did, I'm not obligated to do it even if I did ask for the "special packing".  I don't think it's special packing, though, for something that is sensitive and fragile to be packed in such a way that it arrives unscathed.

  But as the saying goes ... whatever.

Feb 19 13 11:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
I'm wondering if he conducts his photography business with the same level of integrity.

If you really want to know, there are a few models with their MM numbers listed on my profile.  Feel free to contact any or all of them.  I can't guarantee you'll get a response as I don't know how much time they all devote to MM anymore, but they're all there.  These are all the models I've shot that have (or had) an MM account. I didn't pick and choose which ones to list.

  That said ... what does not paying $12 for a box have to do with integrity?  I didn't say "double box this and I'll pay whatever you say it costs".  I asked if it could be double boxed.  A week later, the seller tells me he had to pay another $12.  You can call it "integrity" to pay whatever someone says you owe.  I call it nonsense.

Feb 19 13 11:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 14,485
New York, New York, US


This thread reminds me of people that sue for a dollar on The People's Court for the principle.
Feb 19 13 11:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 35,189
Columbus, Ohio, US


Jules NYC wrote:
This thread reminds me of people that sue for a dollar on The People's Court for the principle.

Maybe they actually did have principles. Some do.......................some don't.

Feb 19 13 11:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gold Rush Studio
Posts: 281
Sacramento, California, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
Suppose you go on eBay to browse and you find something you really want.  That something (say wine glasses) can be broken in transit (especially if the delivery company has hired Ace Ventura), so you buy the item, pay for the shipping (that the seller has listed) and send them a note asking them to please double box the items because it's important you get them intact.

  A week later, the seller contacts you and says something to the effect of ... if you're going to request special services, you should pay more for shipping.  I took your wine glasses to the FedEx store to be shipped and they charged me an extra $12 for your requested double boxing.

  Would you send the seller the $12 after the glasses arrived intact or would you invite that seller to pound sand for being too lazy to pack the things up themselves?

Suppose you go to shoot a wedding and they originally asked you to be there for just the wedding and then they asked you to be there for the reception, too.

Should they pay you extra?

See, the best way to tell if something is ethical or not is to ask if you'd like it if someone did the same thing to you.

Feb 19 13 11:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,635
Lodi, California, US


Jules NYC wrote:
This thread reminds me of people that sue for a dollar on The People's Court for the principle.

...and spend $20 to get to the studio.

Feb 19 13 11:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 14,485
New York, New York, US


Small Fruit Pits wrote:

Maybe they actually did have principles. Some do.......................some don't.

To go to court over a dollar says a lot about an individual, not favorably.

As for this issue, special handling, just pay the guy the lousy 12 bucks.

Feb 19 13 11:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 14,485
New York, New York, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

...and spend $20 to get to the studio.

...and the show only pays for your dollar 'win'.

Feb 19 13 11:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,394
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Gold Rush Studio wrote:
Suppose you go to shoot a wedding and they originally asked you to be there for just the wedding and then they asked you to be there for the reception, too.

Should they pay you extra?

See, the best way to tell if something is ethical or not is to ask if you'd like it if someone did the same thing to you.

If I'm shooting someone's wedding and that's all they're paying me for, that's all they're getting.  If they want me to stay around for the reception, they have to come up with some more money. 

  The difference between that scenario and this one is that if they want me to be around for an hour, it's going to take me an hour to shoot it, who knows how much time to get the pictures in presentable form, make prints (or send orders for them), etc etc.  I wouldn't say "okay", I'll shoot it and then 3 weeks later send them a bill for $1200.  I may tell them right then that it's going to be $1200 but not expect them to have the money that instant.  If they want my services, they'll say okay.

  In the case of this eBay item, if the person was going to have FedEx pack it, they had to drive there, anyway.  They had to pay for the packing of the item anyway.  They didn't say it would be an extra $12 and I said okay.  If they had said $5 extra, I might've just paid them.  And for the record, I'd say that for $32, it was rather poorly packed.  I realize it's a moot point as the item arrived safely and it works but I'm not in the habit of throwing money away because someone says I should.

Feb 20 13 12:06 am  Link  Quote 
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