Eliza C wrote:

Firstly I have given in this thread three London agencies who specialise in character models of all shapes sizes and ages.

I have also spoken about promotional modelling. You look down your nose at this as though it is not proper modelling but for most models it pays well and is regular, and there are social benefits: it is great being at big sporting, fashion and trade events whether you are draped over a car wearing a sash at a presentation, looking after VIP's and guests or giving out samples for that matter. This is the sort of work many models do regularly whatever height they are. It may well pay only $20 an hour but when you are booked for five days for a sports or trade event or are on the road promoting mobile phones that adds up to pay bills. Photoshoots one does irregularly; often models are doing it tf or low paid, and there is little chance of that paying the bills. But most models do that too - they need pictures to get the work for employers that DO pay them like promo companies. If you choose not to call it proper modelling that is up to you but there is a section here for promotional modelling and a lot of the paid castings are for promo work. So if a model is 5ft 4" sure she may only get a dozen paid shoots a year but the rest of the time can be earning a good deal of money doing promo work. That is what many of us are aiming at - the shooting is either as a hobby or the ocassional pay. Most of us that are professionals know we aren't going to end up on the cover of Vogue but are happy doing this journeyman stuff. I haven't done much of it myself but lots of my modelling colleagues do.

If you are a model in a metropolis and work hard you can make it pay. If you sit on your arse waiting for photographers expecting to be in magazines you won't. If you are in hicksville you won't.

If you do nude work for Art institutions and LEA's etc then that obvioulsy helps pay bills too. Doing nude photography which involves the more erotic nature can actually cost you work with promo companies etc however and even with boutiques etc. So whatever height one is you have to think very carefully about what kind of nude work you do. If glamour photography is where you want to go then height has very little to do with it! You need certain other stats! Page 3 of the Sun is fine but open crotch in Fiesta and you are absolutely buggered for doing promotional work or anything for boutiques.

You keep asking for short models because you only appear to consider fashion modelling. Even if you are 5ft 11" and with an agency you will still struggle to make a living unless it's with a top one true. But the top agencies the girls can make £5k a day. I know this because I have worked with them. The local agency girls here can make £3-£400 a day but maybe only do three or four jobs a month. So then they are doing promo work too.

But there is more than just fashion modelling. As I have stated glamour does not require height. The most famous UK model of the last forty years is Samantha Fox. she is 5ft 1":


A hell of a lot of models shoot glamour without doing full frontal stuff.

And yes models do have z cards and we do go around boutiques and salons just like we go to art institutions to get the work. I see any photography work as bonus money and I am sure most realistic professional models do too. The rest of the time we will be doing art modelling, promo modelling, specialised niche modelling whether that be fitness, pin-up, alt, etc or perform - either acting or dance. Most ballerinas will do a bit of modelling and they are mostly not very tall. Then you have fit modelling which again you seem to understimate as an avenue - but then because you are not a model you don't check castings. There are every week in London fit jobs advertised. Again not so likely out of a major city with a fashion industry true. so some don't see that as proper modelling either maybe but it was quite enjoyable for me to do runaway with premier models so we get the odd bit of that. And it's great to work with the designers. Again height is sometimes but not always a factor. I pointed out to you a VS bra fit model with a port here before who was 5ft 2" I recall.

So yes it is hard out of a major city. Probably near to impossible to make a living. In the big cities though it isn't so difficult and many small businesses need models from time to time. You have heard this from Will myself and Kickham that that personal touch is valuable and that is exactly how we do get work so it is misinformation to say it isn't. So now you know where the work comes from and how we get it and what the nature of it is. So excuse us while we get on with it while you say 'bah she's not a proper model' because we don't do fashion mags. You may also want to address the photographers on here who don't do fashion mags either and wonder what they do for a living - but I guarantee we won't look down our nose at them because they may do weddings or whatever.

You may also want to check out the agences representing petite models too if you think there is no work for shorter models in fashion. Here are about 80 for you to start with since you keep asking for evidence of shorter professional models:
http://www.rmg-models.co.uk/category/pe … 413,1,15,5

I bet not may of them do nudes. Understand I say that as a model who does do nudes so don't have an issue with it but I certainly wouldn't advise it for all models and those that do to be very clear about what avenue they want to pursue because nude work can close as many doors as it opens.

Eliza, OP is 5'0 in a tiny rural market, in the US. She's already made clear she has no interest in nude work, which is totally fine. UK agencies won't do her any good in the US

How many fit/promo/non nude art reference jobs/small businesses hiring models are within 100 miles of her area?

How many of them need a 5'0 model?

Will they pay her enough to make the time and travel worth it?

Does she have the ability to travel that far on a regular basis?

Does OP have acting/singing/dance skills?

How many of those jobs are in rural Michigan?




Not a single person in this thread is saying the OP can't model at all or make some occasional side cash. No one is saying that it is impossible for a non agency standard model to make money if she plays her cards right and markets to the genres she fits, and has realistic expectations/definition of "success"



We've also covered the fact that for this to be a full time living at that height, she need either additional skills(dancing/singing/acting etc.) or openess to nudity.


You are cosigning the person who spread blatant misinformation based on heresay when he has never made a living as a photographer in the markets he was talking about.

Then you come in here and  mention the willingness to shoot nudes as a tool for a shorter model (she prefers not to) and mention petite agencies in the UK when the OP is in the US.


Can someone local to that area please give her some options that apply to her stats and location?

Will Snizek wrote:
What it comes down to is that it's a fact that non agency standard models do make money.  Whether the people here believe that or not, I really don't care anymore.  They can personally attack me and post any links about me they want, but that doesn't change the reality. I make a decent living doing stuff that's not so mainstream and I guess that's my business.  I should have known better than posting anything here considering how many know it all forum bullies are here.  And I'm not going to name drop names of personal friends in an Internet forum.  People have the right to their own beliefs about things I suppose.  A lot of people here think things outside their personal experiences do not exist.  Quite sad.

Will I think what people are asking is where this is happening on a continual basis.  I am 5'6 and I am making money my busy seasons are Spring and Summer.  I work for art colleges fashion classes some in winter and fall.  Also some makeup college classes or the occasional Paul Mitchell hair class.  I have never once in my 3 years of modeling seen a girl 5'2 or less come to any of these events or get a single paid shoot in the metropolitan cities close to me without glamour or nude work. I will also add that I have never once been taller than the other models at any casting unless it was one I attended in the teen market.   We are not talking about a girl who is out in LA, NY, Miami, or any place even close to the amount of work that is in those areas. 

I don't think anyone is exactly saying give up, quit, it is impossible.  But you have no idea how many new models I have seen show up and have people begin to feed them bull, your face is all you need, with bone structure like that you will be discovered.  It goes on and on.  I put so many hours in a day searching out jobs, networking, talking to people, etc. 

I don't see anything said so far that I would see as bullying just people who know the market and the slim chance she has. When I first arrived on MM I asked similar questions to the OP and got some pretty harsh answers.  I had like 10 ok to decent photos in my port and they told me truthfully what the chances would be.  it made me stronger, tougher, and work harder.

Eliza C wrote:

Firstly I have given in this thread three London agencies who specialise in character models of all shapes sizes and ages.

I have also spoken about promotional modelling. You look down your nose at this as though it is not proper modelling but for most models it pays well and is regular, and there are social benefits: it is great being at big sporting, fashion and trade events whether you are draped over a car wearing a sash at a presentation, looking after VIP's and guests or giving out samples for that matter. This is the sort of work many models do regularly whatever height they are. It may well pay only $20 an hour but when you are booked for five days for a sports or trade event or are on the road promoting mobile phones that adds up to pay bills. Photoshoots one does irregularly; often models are doing it tf or low paid, and there is little chance of that paying the bills. But most models do that too - they need pictures to get the work for employers that DO pay them like promo companies. If you choose not to call it proper modelling that is up to you but there is a section here for promotional modelling and a lot of the paid castings are for promo work. So if a model is 5ft 4" sure she may only get a dozen paid shoots a year but the rest of the time can be earning a good deal of money doing promo work. That is what many of us are aiming at - the shooting is either as a hobby or the ocassional pay. Most of us that are professionals know we aren't going to end up on the cover of Vogue but are happy doing this journeyman stuff. I haven't done much of it myself but lots of my modelling colleagues do.

If you are a model in a metropolis and work hard you can make it pay. If you sit on your arse waiting for photographers expecting to be in magazines you won't. If you are in hicksville you won't.

If you do nude work for Art institutions and LEA's etc then that obvioulsy helps pay bills too. Doing nude photography which involves the more erotic nature can actually cost you work with promo companies etc however and even with boutiques etc. So whatever height one is you have to think very carefully about what kind of nude work you do. If glamour photography is where you want to go then height has very little to do with it! You need certain other stats! Page 3 of the Sun is fine but open crotch in Fiesta and you are absolutely buggered for doing promotional work or anything for boutiques.

You keep asking for short models because you only appear to consider fashion modelling. Even if you are 5ft 11" and with an agency you will still struggle to make a living unless it's with a top one true. But the top agencies the girls can make £5k a day. I know this because I have worked with them. The local agency girls here can make £3-£400 a day but maybe only do three or four jobs a month. So then they are doing promo work too.

But there is more than just fashion modelling. As I have stated glamour does not require height. The most famous UK model of the last forty years is Samantha Fox. she is 5ft 1":


A hell of a lot of models shoot glamour without doing full frontal stuff.

And yes models do have z cards and we do go around boutiques and salons just like we go to art institutions to get the work. I see any photography work as bonus money and I am sure most realistic professional models do too. The rest of the time we will be doing art modelling, promo modelling, specialised niche modelling whether that be fitness, pin-up, alt, etc or perform - either acting or dance. Most ballerinas will do a bit of modelling and they are mostly not very tall. Then you have fit modelling which again you seem to understimate as an avenue - but then because you are not a model you don't check castings. There are every week in London fit jobs advertised. Again not so likely out of a major city with a fashion industry true. so some don't see that as proper modelling either maybe but it was quite enjoyable for me to do runaway with premier models so we get the odd bit of that. And it's great to work with the designers. Again height is sometimes but not always a factor. I pointed out to you a VS bra fit model with a port here before who was 5ft 2" I recall.

So yes it is hard out of a major city. Probably near to impossible to make a living. In the big cities though it isn't so difficult and many small businesses need models from time to time. You have heard this from Will myself and Kickham that that personal touch is valuable and that is exactly how we do get work so it is misinformation to say it isn't. So now you know where the work comes from and how we get it and what the nature of it is. So excuse us while we get on with it while you say 'bah she's not a proper model' because we don't do fashion mags. You may also want to address the photographers on here who don't do fashion mags either and wonder what they do for a living - but I guarantee we won't look down our nose at them because they may do weddings or whatever.

You may also want to check out the agences representing petite models too if you think there is no work for shorter models in fashion. Here are about 80 for you to start with since you keep asking for evidence of shorter professional models:
http://www.rmg-models.co.uk/category/pe … 413,1,15,5

I bet not many of them do nudes. Understand I say that as a model who does do nudes so don't have an issue with it but I certainly wouldn't advise it for all models and those that do to be very clear about what avenue they want to pursue because nude work can close as many doors as it opens. If you are nekkid all over the internet then you aren't going to get many promotional modelling jobs for companies who don't want to associate their product or service with that.

You clearly do not understand the US market.  #1 Our promotional jobs do not book 5 days with a model of that height.  Those jobs that last that long interview and pick teams, usually 5'8 girls with implants and tiny waists.  #2 Promotional jobs here are almost always weekend gigs. Even with that girls of her height are used for the least paying jobs those days.  Usually $8-$12 an hour for promoting cell phone companies or something like that.  Taxes are taken from that so at end of day said girl has worked all day and traveled to and from with the expense of food also for less than $80. 

OP has clearly said she is not shooting glamour or nude for anyone

In the US there are very very few petite agencies at all and certainly none anywhere near where the OP resides.  I actually googled and found not a single one in the US of any stature.  Why would you post 80 she can look at in the UK?

I think clearly things look to be very different in other countries but we are talking about the US.  Fit models for boutiques and etc. have a standard that is 5'8 size 2 to 4. 

If OP makes it she can come back here and be able to tell us all we were wrong.  Should she quit because of what we are telling her?  heck no But she should go into this knowing how hard it will be.

Paige Morgan wrote:
Eliza, OP is 5'0 in a tiny rural market, in the US. She's already made clear she has no interest in nude work, which is totally fine. UK agencies won't do her any good in the US

How many fit/promo/non nude art reference jobs/small businesses hiring models are within 100 miles of her area?

How many of them need a 5'0 model?

Will they pay her enough to make the time and travel worth it?

Does she have the ability to travel that far on a regular basis?

Does OP have acting/singing/dance skills?

How many of those jobs are in rural Michigan?




Not a single person in this thread is saying the OP can't model at all or make some occasional side cash. No one is saying that it is impossible for a non agency standard model to make money if she plays her cards right and markets to the genres she fits, and has realistic expectations/definition of "success"



We've also covered the fact that for this to be a full time living at that height, she need either additional skills(dancing/singing/acting etc.) or openess to nudity.


You are cosigning the person who spread blatant misinformation based on heresay when he has never made a living as a photographer in the markets he was talking about.

Then you come in here and  mention the willingness to shoot nudes as a tool for a shorter model (she prefers not to) and mention petite agencies in the UK when the OP is in the US.


Can someone local to that area please give her some options that apply to her stats and location?

Paige - the op posed a question. I belive answering such questions without prejudice and discussing with any contributor without prejudice too. You are making assumptions about Will. Sometimes people made assumptions about me - accused me of not being a scientist for example - and they were made to look pretty daft. So I always think one should discuss an issue without reference to the op or other contributor's abilities or experience.

THIS was the question posed:

"What would you say is the success rate for curvy petite models under 5 foot 5 inches?"

A general question about modelling.

I have stated that it is virtually impossible outside a metropolitan area with many fashion companies, advertising companies, art institutions, concentration of boutiques, stores and salons, and promotional modelling companies etc to make a living even with height.
I have stated that I such a metropolitan area if you are willing to pound the beat introducing yourself with z card and following up every lead then it is difficult the shorter you are but not impossible. Promotional modelling is a great avenue and a lot of models do it. Glamour modelling is not necessarily nude and is not related to height. If you have skills that are useful in modelling such as dance and acting again you have extra chances.

The op did NOT ask what her chances were or what they were specific to her area. While yes nude modelling is an option, it can close doors to doing things like promotional modelling too. That is worth saying for shorter models getting by with a few photo jobs and a selection of say promo and fitting jobsbefore they consider non-art nude as an option. I know several modesl who have come a cropper and lost a lot of work doing non art nude.

Anybody serious about modelling should go where the work is. Then it is still hard but not impossible and you do get work pounding the streets looking for it and answering castings everywhere.

Eliza C wrote:
Paige - the op posed a question. I belive answering such questions without prejudice and discussing with any contributor without prejudice too. You are making assumptions about Will. Sometimes people made assumptions about me - accused me of not being a scientist for example - and they were made to look pretty daft. So I always think one should discuss an issue without reference to the op or other contributor's abilities or experience.

THIS was the question posed:

"What would you say is the success rate for curvy petite models under 5 foot 5 inches?"

A general question about modelling.

I have stated that it is virtually impossible outside a metropolitan area with many fashion companies, advertising companies, art institutions, concentration of boutiques, stores and salons, and promotional modelling companies etc to make a living even with height.
I have stated that I such a metropolitan area if you are willing to pound the beat introducing yourself with z card and following up every lead then it is difficult the shorter you are but not impossible. Promotional modelling is a great avenue and a lot of models do it. Glamour modelling is not necessarily nude and is not related to height. If you have skills that are useful in modelling such as dance and acting again you have extra chances.

The op did NOT ask what her chances were or what they were specific to her area. While yes nude modelling is an option, it can close doors to doing things like promotional modelling too. That is worth saying for shorter models getting by with a few photo jobs and a selection of say promo and fitting jobsbefore they consider non-art nude as an option. I know several modesl who have come a cropper and lost a lot of work doing non art nude.

Anybody serious about modelling should go where the work is. Then it is still hard but not impossible and you do get work pounding the streets looking for it and answering castings everywhere.

Re read the thread Eliza. Will admitted to the fact that he has never worked as a photographer/casting agent in NYC when I pressed him. His blanket statement regarding the NYC model market were based on third party information and just plain wrong.

He also stated that Suicide Girls  was an option for shorter models who didn't shoot nude.

That is also blatant misinformation.

Lil Miss Jade wrote:

You clearly do not understand the US market.  #1 Our promotional jobs do not book 5 days with a model of that height.  Those jobs that last that long interview and pick teams, usually 5'8 girls with implants and tiny waists.  #2 Promotional jobs here are almost always weekend gigs. Even with that girls of her height are used for the least paying jobs those days.  Usually $8-$12 an hour for promoting cell phone companies or something like that.  Taxes are taken from that so at end of day said girl has worked all day and traveled to and from with the expense of food also for less than $80. 

OP has clearly said she is not shooting glamour or nude for anyone

In the US there are very very few petite agencies at all and certainly none anywhere near where the OP resides.  I actually googled and found not a single one in the US of any stature.  Why would you post 80 she can look at in the UK?

I think clearly things look to be very different in other countries but we are talking about the US.  Fit models for boutiques and etc. have a standard that is 5'8 size 2 to 4. 

If OP makes it she can come back here and be able to tell us all we were wrong.  Should she quit because of what we are telling her?  heck no But she should go into this knowing how hard it will be.

Fit models come in all shapes and sizes. I posted a casting from Stop Staring (last time this came up) who were after a plus size fit model for example; plus a whole load of links to various fit models who are not standard including one VS bra fit model here who is 5ft 2". Yes sometimes in the UK they ask for minimum height too but not always. Stats are the most important thing and most companies make samples on models of various sizes before production.

I also happen to know some promo models in the US. And there is no difference to the UK and there are many agencies too:
http://promotionalmodelsnewyork.com/
http://www.indeed.com/q-Promotional-Mod … -jobs.html

Again I know also that some teams travel because I have had friends who have done it there.


Also there are agencies who represent petite models in the USA too; Lauren Green for example:
http://laurengreenagency.com/women/
http://bellapetite.com/models

But I was answering the question generally - as we should be doing - and there will be UK models interested in that question too.

Paige Morgan wrote:
Re read the thread Eliza. Will admitted to the fact that he has never worked as a photographer/casting agent in NYC when I pressed him. His blanket statement regarding the NYC model market were based on third party information and just plain wrong.

He also stated that Suicide Girls  was an option for shorter models who didn't shoot nude.

Oh lord...

*head desk*

Paige Morgan wrote:
Re read the thread Eliza. Will admitted to the fact that he has never worked as a photographer/casting agent in NYC when I pressed him. His blanket statement regarding the NYC model market were based on third party information and just plain wrong.

He also stated that Suicide Girls  was an option for shorter models who didn't shoot nude.

That is also blatant misinformation.

Yes because Suicide girls is nude true.

But there are modelling opportunities for shorter models in the alt pin-up etc fields that aren't nude. In fact once again I'd say shooting nude for such websites could cost you paid work elsewhere particularly with promotional jobs.

I am not interested in making these questions personal. People keep making statements on fitting modelling without expereince in that field but that doesn't mean it is not admissable because it is third party info. It may be wrong but I have to say why without attacking them personally.

So if Will's info is not correct say why not just say that his experience isn't relevant. Tony is not a model but it never stops him contributing on these threads! So relevant expereince is not a prerequisite for answering a general question. It can help of course.

Eliza C wrote:

Fit models come in all shapes and sizes. I posted a casting from Stop Staring (last time this came up) who were after a plus size fit model for example; plus a whole load of links to various fit models who are not standard including one VS bra fit model here who is 5ft 2". Yes sometimes in the UK they ask for minimum height too but not always. Stats are the most important thing and most companies make samples on models of various sizes before production.

I also happen to know some promo models in the US. And there is no difference to the UK and there are many agencies too:
http://promotionalmodelsnewyork.com/
http://www.indeed.com/q-Promotional-Mod … -jobs.html

Again I know also that some teams travel because I have had friends who have done it there.


Also there are agencies who represent petite models in the USA too; Lauren Green for example:
http://laurengreenagency.com/women/
http://bellapetite.com/models

But I was answering the question generally - as we should be doing - and there will be UK models interested in that question too.

Eliza.....bella petite is a scam. They make their money off of charging models to enter contests to be featured in their online magazine and other nonsense.

They are not a legit agency

Paige Morgan wrote:
Eliza.....bella petite is a scam. They make their money off of charging models to enter contests to be featured in their online magazine and other nonsense.

They are not a legit agency

Perhaps.
At the end of the day if a model gets some exposure through it it may be considered worthwhile.

Here are a couple more what's the score on these:
http://www.modelscouts.com/petite-models
http://www.flauntmodels.com/
http://www.reichny.com/sheadsheet.cfm

And Lauren Green is legit.

Eliza C wrote:

Perhaps.
At the end of the day if a model gets some exposure through it it may be considered worthwhile.

Here are a couple more what's the score on these:
http://www.modelscouts.com/petite-models
http://www.flauntmodels.com/
http://www.reichny.com/sheadsheet.cfm

And Lauren Green is legit.

I would never advocate falling prey to a scam for "exposure".

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
"Petite Model" is pretty much an oxymoron in most meaningful senses.

Yes, there are a few clothed jobs here and there for shorter girls - and of course fit modelling for Eliza! - but generally speaking if you're under 5'7" then if you want to be working enough to pay the rent you will be taking your clothes off most of the time. Period.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

The problem is Stefano that certain types of nude modelling (not all) esp internet fetish etc will actually stop you getting promotional work, work for boutiques etc. and that odd little job. And it's not just fitting either you do not have to be 5ft 7" or over to do promo modelling either Stefano; or lingerie. So most models actually are happy doing those few clothed jobs in commercial print etc once a month alongside their promo work.

I will give you a good example - she has modelled for my partner but also done some very high profile campaigns. But she also does a lot of promotional modelling work.
http://www.elliottbrownagency.co.uk/por … en&ID=1529

Now if girls like that start doing internet nude fetish modelling etc they are screwed for making a living do you follow? And I happen to know she was told so by the boss of the promotional company she works with as do several other models I know to watch what they do. I don't think any of them are very tall and they are an amazing looking team in high demand and well paid.

So what I am saying is if you are shorter don't assume that any nude modelling is going to help because sometimes it won't - it can be counter productive. Of course on the other hand, even tall high fashion models do nude work with the 'right' photographers - such as yourself.

And furthermore of the agency models from Premier I did runway with several were no taller than me.

Will Snizek wrote:
You also said my knowledge in the video game industry has nothing to do with photography or modeling.  Some people would be quite surprised how often modeling and photography crosses paths with the game industry.  I've been involved with every major trade show at least once and quite a few corporate promotion events.  Never been to one where professional models and professional photographers weren't hired.  We also aren't playing on Atari 2600s these days.  They use plenty of models to create game characters nowadays.

I have just been booked to do a sci fi fair. So even at events like that models are employed. Often the costumes are petite. Of course the stuck up people here won't consider that modelling either but it pays and it's enjoyable to wear such costumes.

Lora Weaver wrote:

I would never advocate falling prey to a scam for "exposure".

By the same token one could say a photographer encouraging an aspiring 5ft 4" model to part with £1500 for a portfolio to be a scam. But some consider it worth it. Some actually go on to get work via it.

Will Snizek wrote:
What it comes down to is that it's a fact that non agency standard llamas do make money.  Whether the people here believe that or not, I really don't care anymore.  They can personally attack me and post any links about me they want, but that doesn't change the reality. I make a decent living doing stuff that's not so mainstream and I guess that's my business.  I should have known better than posting anything here considering how many know it all forum bullies are here.  And I'm not going to name drop names of personal friends in an Internet forum.  People have the right to their own beliefs about things I suppose.  A lot of people here think things outside their personal experiences do not exist.  Quite sad.

Irony

Eliza C wrote:

I have just been booked to do a sci fi fair. So even at events like that models are employed. Often the costumes are petite. Of course the stuck up people here won't consider that modelling either but it pays and it's enjoyable to wear such costumes.

Nice.  I've never been to any science fiction events, but it makes sense they use models too.  Cosplay is getting pretty big these days!  I don't see why it wouldn't be considered "real modeling".  If you can make money doing it, it's real.  Lol

Eliza C wrote:
By the same token one could say a photographer encouraging an aspiring 5ft 4" llama to part with £1500 for a portfolio to be a scam. But some consider it worth it. Some actually go on to get work via it.

No. If you pay a photographer for images you know what you're getting. Images.

You're not paying for a "chance" to win a contest to be featured in something.

Please don't try to justify it.

Will Snizek wrote:
Nice.  I've never been to any science fiction events, but it makes sense they use models too.  Cosplay is getting pretty big these days!  I don't see why it wouldn't be considered "real modeling".  If you can make money doing it, it's real.  Lol

That is what I think too.
I just think people here are snobby about it and don't consider stuff like that real. Yet often it pays better than photographic modelling. It is like you said eralier there is a lack of imagination about modelling because primarily everyone is thinking fashion editorial. And even for very tall girls that is extremely difficult to get into and pie in the sky for most of us. But there are lots of journeymen modelling jobs you just have to think and look and graft  they are there.

Of course it is difficult for models of any height and the shorter you are the less potential there is.
But it is also difficult for photographers to get the kind of work they aspire to regularly. So they do weddings and school photos and are also at trade and sci fi events and approaching small boutiques etc grafting!
Let us be honest that is what most of us do here and if we can pay the bills that is what matters. Great for the guys and models who get the big stuff regularly but we also work too! Because you can't see us don't think we aren't here doing the stuff you don't think exists!

Eliza C wrote:
Firstly I have given in this thread three London agencies who specialise in character models of all shapes sizes and ages.

I have also spoken about promotional modelling. You look down your nose at this as though it is not proper modelling but for most models it pays well and is regular, and there are social benefits: it is great being at big sporting, fashion and trade events whether you are draped over a car wearing a sash at a presentation, looking after VIP's and guests or giving out samples for that matter. This is the sort of work many models do regularly whatever height they are. It may well pay only $20 an hour but when you are booked for five days for a sports or trade event or are on the road promoting mobile phones that adds up to pay bills. Photoshoots one does irregularly; often models are doing it tf or low paid, and there is little chance of that paying the bills. But most models do that too - they need pictures to get the work for employers that DO pay them like promo companies. If you choose not to call it proper modelling that is up to you but there is a section here for promotional modelling and a lot of the paid castings are for promo work. So if a model is 5ft 4" sure she may only get a dozen paid shoots a year but the rest of the time can be earning a good deal of money doing promo work. That is what many of us are aiming at - the shooting is either as a hobby or the ocassional pay. Most of us that are professionals know we aren't going to end up on the cover of Vogue but are happy doing this journeyman stuff. I haven't done much of it myself but lots of my modelling colleagues do.

If you are a model in a metropolis and work hard you can make it pay. If you sit on your arse waiting for photographers expecting to be in magazines you won't. If you are in hicksville you won't.

If you do nude work for Art institutions and LEA's etc then that obvioulsy helps pay bills too. Doing nude photography which involves the more erotic nature can actually cost you work with promo companies etc however and even with boutiques etc. So whatever height one is you have to think very carefully about what kind of nude work you do. If glamour photography is where you want to go then height has very little to do with it! You need certain other stats! Page 3 of the Sun is fine but open crotch in Fiesta and you are absolutely buggered for doing promotional work or anything for boutiques.

You keep asking for short models because you only appear to consider fashion modelling. Even if you are 5ft 11" and with an agency you will still struggle to make a living unless it's with a top one true. But the top agencies the girls can make £5k a day. I know this because I have worked with them. The local agency girls here can make £3-£400 a day but maybe only do three or four jobs a month. So then they are doing promo work too.

But there is more than just fashion modelling. As I have stated glamour does not require height. The most famous UK model of the last forty years is Samantha Fox. she is 5ft 1":


A hell of a lot of models shoot glamour without doing full frontal stuff.

And yes models do have z cards and we do go around boutiques and salons just like we go to art institutions to get the work. I see any photography work as bonus money and I am sure most realistic professional models do too. The rest of the time we will be doing art modelling, promo modelling, specialised niche modelling whether that be fitness, pin-up, alt, etc or perform - either acting or dance. Most ballerinas will do a bit of modelling and they are mostly not very tall. Then you have fit modelling which again you seem to understimate as an avenue - but then because you are not a model you don't check castings. There are every week in London fit jobs advertised. Again not so likely out of a major city with a fashion industry true. so some don't see that as proper modelling either maybe but it was quite enjoyable for me to do runaway with premier models so we get the odd bit of that. And it's great to work with the designers. Again height is sometimes but not always a factor. I pointed out to you a VS bra fit model with a port here before who was 5ft 2" I recall.

So yes it is hard out of a major city. Probably near to impossible to make a living. In the big cities though it isn't so difficult and many small businesses need models from time to time. You have heard this from Will myself and Kickham that that personal touch is valuable and that is exactly how we do get work so it is misinformation to say it isn't. So now you know where the work comes from and how we get it and what the nature of it is. So excuse us while we get on with it while you say 'bah she's not a proper model' because we don't do fashion mags. You may also want to address the photographers on here who don't do fashion mags either and wonder what they do for a living - but I guarantee we won't look down our nose at them because they may do weddings or whatever.

You may also want to check out the agences representing petite models too if you think there is no work for shorter models in fashion. Here are about 80 for you to start with since you keep asking for evidence of shorter professional models:
http://www.rmg-models.co.uk/category/pe … 413,1,15,5

I bet not many of them do nudes. Understand I say that as a model who does do nudes so don't have an issue with it but I certainly wouldn't advise it for all models and those that do to be very clear about what avenue they want to pursue because nude work can close as many doors as it opens. If you are nekkid all over the internet then you aren't going to get many promotional modelling jobs for companies who don't want to associate their product or service with that.

I can't speak for the UK but odds are great that in Petoskey, Michigan opportunities for modeling of any sort are limited.   My guess all over Michigan they are as well.   Unless the OP can get to the UK any agency there you mention means nothing.   Here in the US despite what Will has  said about NY.   Petite models there who don't do nudes aren't working.   I continue to ask him about the models he claims to know and he has yet to post a single link and based on some cool detective work by Paige has been reveled to perhaps not have any real information to provide.   Are there some petite models who don't do nudes making a living?   Probably.   Is that number very, very small?   I bet so.   Again this is about where the OP lives.   This is about working models in the US.   Handing out samples at clubs isn't modeling.   The OP isn't in London.   

We can discuss petite modeling in the UK or Europe but she doesn't live there.   I do want to discuss your continued comments where you make it appear I attack models here and overall.   Please stop.   I have no ideal what the OP is capable of.   I have never said that anyone isn't a 'proper' model.   What I have said is that companies and clients with budgets should work with licensed and bonded real world agencies for their models.   I will also add that the OP should use every resource available to her but that unless she's willing to do nudes may not make any money.   You can write book length replies about how I'm wrong but that's the truth.

Eliza C wrote:
By the same token one could say a photographer encouraging an aspiring 5ft 4" model to part with £1500 for a portfolio to be a scam. But some consider it worth it. Some actually go on to get work via it.

Lora Weaver wrote:
No. If you pay a photographer for images you know what you're getting. Images.

You're not paying for a "chance" to win a contest to be featured in something.

Please don't try to justify it.

+1

Making a comparison between paying for portfolio images and throwing money at a model search is absurd.

I've witnessed these weekend-long model search things, and I would not recommend any aspiring model waste their time and money on them.  Legitimate agencies have free open calls, and they will give you the facts, not empty promises.

There is a lot of "justifying" going on in this thread, with some posters far more eager to be "right" than to actually share useful and accurate information.

Richard Dubois wrote:

Eliza C wrote:
By the same token one could say a photographer encouraging an aspiring 5ft 4" model to part with £1500 for a portfolio to be a scam. But some consider it worth it. Some actually go on to get work via it.

+1

I've witnessed these weekend-long model search things, and I would not recommend any aspiring model waste their time and money on them.  Legitimate agencies have free open calls, and they will give you the facts, not empty promises.

There is a lot of "justifying" going on in this thread, with some posters far more eager to be "right" than to actually share useful and accurate information.

Hi, Richard.   Always a big fan.   What bothers me about these kinds of threads is that encourages petite models for example to invest in the bs model searches.   After all a 'successful' petite model on MM told them there was tons of work around.   Worse its the port mills where these poor girls are steered toward  their approved shooters.   One example is a member has linked to a known port/mill website rip off.   These folks accept anyone who can pay.   Its a shooter who tells models that he knowns models under 5'6" in NY who don't do nudes but makes a living in one of the hardest markets in the world.   I don't know if any models believe in that crap but if one just one does then those members should be ashamed.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hi, Richard.   Always a big fan.   What bothers me about these kinds of threads is that encourages petite llamas for example to invest in the bs llama searches.   After all a 'successful' petite llama on MM told them there was tons of work around.   Worse its the port mills where these poor girls are steered toward  their approved shooters.   One example is a member has linked to a known port/mill website rip off.   These folks accept anyone who can pay.   Its a shooter who tells llamas that he knowns llamas under 5'6" in NY who don't do nudes but makes a living in one of the hardest markets in the world.   I don't know if any llamas believe in that crap but if one just one does then those members should be ashamed.

My thoughts exactly.

Eliza C wrote:
Now if girls like that start doing internet nude fetish modelling etc they are screwed for making a living do you follow?

As I'm sure you're aware, I could link you to plenty of models (from 5'3" to 5'7") who book primarily nude work via sites like MM but who are also represented by commercial agencies for clothed and lingerie work. Some of the most popular nude models in the UK in fact.

Like everything it's a balancing act - doing nude work might lose you a few jobs here and there, but if you make twice as much from nudes as you do from commercial then it makes sense to keep doing them. And the shorter a girl is the more likely that the majority of paid work will be nudes.

The number of 5'3" girls making a full-time living from non-nude, non-glamour, non-fetish work is extremely small, if indeed there are any at all. That's why the most realistic advice anybody can give a 5'3" girl who wants to be a professional model is "get naked, or forget it".



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com