Forums >
Model Colloquy >
models falsely casting for photographers TFP basis
Rays Fine Art wrote: To be honest, whilst i understand the differences between casting/availability/travel i feel the system is a little bit overly complicated. Since there are search options for location and date and work being offered/solicited, i don't see why they can't just all be in the same section. I understand in a forum setting it would be annoying to have people clogging up the forum soliciting work when people are trying to find work but with the search options it would seem simple enough. Obviously people would still try to manipulate the system but might result in less mistakes through lack of understanding. May 01 13 05:19 pm Link T A Y L O R wrote: For "Availability" that works. For "Casting" it means they YOU will pay, or maybe trade. You can't ask for any payment from a casting call. May 01 13 06:27 pm Link Meghan Hale wrote: I have seen a few of these. And someone else said that they must have location and time for the shoot listed, I NEVER see that. May 16 13 11:41 pm Link Can the wording in the entry screen be more precise to stop the misuse of casting? Instead of prompt saying "Paid?" maybe say "I'm offering to pay". And in the Availibility entry screen say "Seeking payement". May 17 13 07:32 am Link Yeah, that is definitely false advertising. If someone puts up a casting call that they are looking to work TF, then they should accept TF offers based around that casting call. However, sometimes with casting calls, models are looking for a certain photography style in particular. So a polite message back saying "Sorry, your style isn't what I had in mind for this particular project, but if you would still like to work together my rates are ____" would be better. I think some of it is just miscommunication. If they are offering rates for a project different from the casting call, fair enough, if not, then yes, that is not right. They can either say yes or no to you and not bring payment into the equation when they were advertising it as TF. May 22 13 11:00 am Link Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote: Uh..no. That still leaves it open to abuse. Never leave an door open wide enough for a snake to slither through. May 22 13 11:12 am Link I have had a model, when I replied to a casting call, say that all my work work had the same pose and same lighting (which anyone looking at it can see is not true) so she would have to charge me. Later I discovered she had tried the same with many other photographers. I camed this at the time but no action was taken -her fraudulent posts were not taken down. Later I discovered the same model was asking for exhorbitant travel rates, many times the actual cost, for TFP castings. May 22 13 11:23 am Link Natural Means wrote: A good idea but in my experience it is not usually a misunderstanding, but a case of bait and hook. May 22 13 01:27 pm Link Natural Means wrote: WMcK wrote: It would be good if MM would rephrase it so an intentional bait-and-switch isn't so easily defended by "Golly, I didn't know." May 22 13 01:50 pm Link So basically... she's doing trade work... just not with you. May 22 13 01:56 pm Link Nicolette wrote: Or she is full of shit....either way offering up rates in a casting call reply is not permitted and tactless. May 22 13 02:05 pm Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: Perhaps. We don't know that for sure though. I've posted castings for TF shoots before. When a photographer I did not feel was the one for that shoot contacted me, I said pretty much exactly this: May 22 13 02:08 pm Link Nicolette wrote: No but you are not permitted to try and change it into a paid gig for yourself either. Best wait a few weeks then send your rates in a new message apart from the casting call. Otherwise how does anyone know you don't say the same to everyone? May 22 13 02:11 pm Link Nicolette wrote: Pretty much. When I put up an availability notice for paid work, i get a whole bunch of emails offering TFP. That can't be coincidence. May 22 13 02:18 pm Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: That's not trying to change a gig, by any means. That's saying "Hey, you're not right for this. But if you wanna work with me anyways [knowing full well it won't be for that trade shoot], these are the terms." I don't get upset when photographers do that to me. It's the nature of the beast and the way this business works. May 22 13 02:21 pm Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: Photographers seem perfectly capable of using the phrase "I don't have any paid work to offer at the moment, but I'm willing to offer a TFP shoot if you are interested" to me. Try that. May 22 13 02:21 pm Link If your looking to be paid by models from this site BOY ARE YOU IN THE WRONGPLACE Welcome to the world of Internet modeling May 22 13 02:29 pm Link JadeDRed wrote: How in the world is it overly complicated? Every time you post a casting call the rules pop up, plain as day, explaining the process. The reality is, most people never bother to actually read the rules or educate themselves on basic industry vocabulary. A Casting Call is a post for work. Nothing more, nothing less. The compensation for such a posting is either for pay or for TFP (a form of pay). "Negotiable" simply means the amount you are willing to pay. In no way, shape, or form is a casting call designed to be an advertisement, which is what many people think it is. I just reported a casting call this morning that was made in no uncertain terms that it was a model looking to get booked for gigs and the desire to be paid for such work. That's not a casting call, that's an advertisement. May 22 13 02:33 pm Link Shot By Adam wrote: Well, for a start, if i'm available to shoot in a location 2 hours away in a car its 'availability notice', if i'm available to shoot 3 hours away it's 'travel notice'. It's the same thing since I have to state the location anyway but i need to work out car distances (I don't drive) to work out which one I'm offering. I find that to be unnecessarily complicated. May 22 13 02:53 pm Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: It's a complicated line, and to be honest it varies from case to case, but I still think that someone has a right to offer their rates/not work with someone if their work is not what they're interested in for that particular project. I don't think shooting that particular project paid when they are advertising TF is right, but if someone puts up a TF casting call, they still have bills to pay, and should still be able to accept paid work for other things. May 22 13 06:06 pm Link lol. this is not just with models. are you responding to their castings directly or messaging them without them realizing that you are responding to their TF casting? Most likely they do not really like your work and don't want to work with you unless you pay them. I'm assuming they just don't want to actually tell you that so they just send you their rates. as far as the negotiable aspect, they clearly don't read what that means or don't care. just flag them. May 22 13 06:20 pm Link GingerMuse wrote: In the case I was referring to the model tried this on with at least half a dozen photographers. Told them their poses and lighting was all the same which was a downright lie, if she did not like their work she should have said so instead of lying about it. In her next casting call, which I did not answer but knew people who did, she wanted the equivalent of $200 "travelling expenses for a journey costing barely quarter of that - but these were travelling expenses to the city where she had advertised the call! May 22 13 07:39 pm Link JadeDRed wrote: You are comparing apples to oranges. We cannot post a casting call where you are expected to pay nor are we allowed to suggest you do in the reply. May 24 13 11:23 am Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: I've responded to a photographers TF casting before and received a very simple, "Your look isn't quite right for this casting. If you'd still like to shoot, ym rates are XYZ." May 24 13 02:30 pm Link Nicolette wrote: Please CAM any photographer who does that. We are not allowed to do that. Its not the place for that and it diminishes the casting call if people think they are going to get bait and switched. All we can reply is yes or no thanks. May 25 13 04:04 pm Link Moderator Note!
Chain Reaction wrote: This. May 25 13 04:10 pm Link Ava Photography wrote: CAM these and let the mods take care of it. This should not be happening. May 25 13 04:13 pm Link Cherrystone wrote: Actually we have been keeping on top of reported castings for a long time, a very long time. May 25 13 04:16 pm Link Ava Photography wrote: I agree with your thoughts and interpretation of the rules for these postings. I also know that the moderators are a busy group. As one noted, just click on the flag button. They can always contact you via reverse CAM. Save emails. And continue to flag. If we as a community work together well and do what's right, including educating those who are not following the rules, it will make it better for all of us. May 25 13 04:24 pm Link Nicolette wrote: +1 agreed - there is nothing wrong with it - as long as the poster was specific in what they are looking for and the responder doesn't fit the criteria. If a photographer simply said "looking for female model for art shoot" and a woman replied, with his response stating she doesn't fit, but he gives rates, to me that sounds more like bait and switch. May 25 13 04:28 pm Link UCPhotog wrote: Well, yes. But that was what I was saying. If they say their look doesn't fit the shoot, then the look doesn't fit the shoot. There's nothing wrong with a new set of negotiations after that. May 25 13 08:21 pm Link The model who contacts me with "would love to work with you" is actually, 95% of the time, saying "I would love to be paid by you". No-one has ever said "I would like to work FOR you". I've experienced what the OP describes, a clothed TF call is put out, and a discussion begins, where I might try to engage the model creatively, or simply find out (since it is TF) what their needs are too, or what clothes we have between us, but my question is answered with an announcement of nude rates. At that point I feel I am wise to end the discussion and can't help but remind myself of the Select and Models1 agency models who paid their petrol, paid for prints, bought me lunch, spent 2 days discussing the clothes with the stylist, shopping, rolled me a spliff, gave me four extra hours, etc etc... all for a test/TF. Some MM models are as good as, if not better in some ways than agency models, but a fair amount don't seem to realize, they will get PR/marketing, all they need to do is answer questions, think, turn up. If you look at the UK employment market recently, there are more and more self-employed and casual/temporary vacancies available now in offices. The UK is gearing towards a boom in self-employment in the workplace. Some people will always go to an agent or producer for the guarantees that they provide, but there is an opportunity there for the a model with a good work ethic, attitude and student mentality to not be working for £25/40 per hour. But that will never come by testing with the wrong person A. and then charging the wrong person B. £25 per hour and having said "I would LOVE to work with you", then not actually showing any devotion to making that unpaid shoot a success. It's likely to be the people that I am testing or TF with that I will consider for paid work, MORE than someone I have not met. May 26 13 03:32 am Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: No one is comparing anything to anything. I said if getting rates from a model makes you so super sad then mention you wont pay in the initial contact like millions of other messages do and you will reduce the chances of that horrible, emotionally scarring situation occurring. May 26 13 11:17 am Link UCPhotog wrote: To me it sounds like you aren't good enough for the job. But whatever helps you sleep at night. May 26 13 11:20 am Link Hi_Spade Photography wrote: A paid casting is supposed to mean that the person posting the casing is paying others, not looking to be paid. It's like posting a job in the help wanted section and then expecting the applicant to pay you. May 26 13 11:27 am Link I just started using the castings and I have had luck.. I have contacted 5 different people and 4 put TFP and that is what we did.. The other offered pay and even though I said they didn't have to pay me they did sence I replied to there post in which it was stated they thought it un-fair not to.. I think it not fair to put tfp and send rates.. unless if you do not wish to work tfp with that person BUT, in that case I would say STATE that and maby WHY you think they should pay you? Just because someone puts TFP dousen't mean they have to accept every person who replies.. Point is communication is always best and repected. :-) May 26 13 12:29 pm Link JadeDRed wrote: Perhaps there is something being lost in the translation. Casting calls are not to directly or indirectly solicit for paid work. There is no need to say you won't pay when the call clearly say TF. Save your sarcasm..it weakens your position. May 26 13 12:40 pm Link Can't we all...just get along...? :-) May 26 13 01:16 pm Link Rick OBanion Photo wrote: Hey, you're the one who is whining, I gave you advice that could help you deal with the problem, like almost everyone else manages too. Your answer is 'no, why should i help myself when everyone else should just do what I want because I want them to'. I have no position, this is no problem to me whatsoever. I can get plenty enough TFP work with out having to stamp my little feet any time someone turns me down. May 26 13 01:24 pm Link JadeDRed wrote: Could you get a little more condescending? I don't think you are getting everyone's point and I don't have any crayons handy to help you so I will walk away. May 26 13 09:49 pm Link |