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Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Rays Fine Art wrote:

"Paid" in a casting call means that the poster plans to pay the respondent.  Same for "negotiable"--it means that the poster is willing to negotiate anywhere from TF* to whatever the respondent's rates are.  If the poster wants to be paid they have to post an availability notice. 

I don't think it's so much a problem of people trying to circumvent the rules as it is one of people not bothering to read them.  I seem to see this error most often when the model is brand new to MM or is just starting out on the traveling model trail.

All IMHO, as always.

To be honest, whilst i understand the differences between casting/availability/travel i feel the system is a little bit overly complicated. Since there are search options for location and date and work being offered/solicited, i don't see why they can't just all be in the same section. I understand in a forum setting it would be annoying to have people clogging up the forum soliciting work when people are trying to find work but with the search options it would seem simple enough. Obviously people would still try to manipulate the system but might result in less mistakes through lack of understanding.

May 01 13 05:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


T A Y L O R  wrote:
I usually use negotiable to mean that I'll work TF with select photographers, but if I'm not interested in doing a trade shoot with them I'll send them my rates. I usually state as much, too.

Does negotiate mean negotiating rates to pay a photographer? Where's that stated?

For "Availability" that works.  For "Casting" it means they YOU will pay, or maybe trade.  You can't ask for any payment from a casting call.

May 01 13 06:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
DLatrice
Posts: 204
Columbus, Ohio, US


Meghan Hale wrote:
Posts that state "contact me for details" are not allowed.

I have seen a few of these. And someone else said that they must have location and time for the shoot listed, I NEVER see that.

I also see ones where they want you to reply to another, external email, is that okay?

May 16 13 11:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Natural Means
Posts: 521
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Can the wording in the entry screen be more precise to stop the misuse of casting? Instead of prompt saying "Paid?" maybe say "I'm offering to pay". And in the Availibility entry screen say "Seeking payement".
May 17 13 07:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 214
Chicago, Illinois, US


Yeah, that is definitely false advertising. If someone puts up a casting call that they are looking to work TF, then they should accept TF offers based around that casting call.

However, sometimes with casting calls, models are looking for a certain photography style in particular. So a polite message back saying "Sorry, your style isn't what I had in mind for this particular project, but if you would still like to work together my rates are ____" would be better.

I think some of it is just miscommunication. If they are offering rates for a project different from the casting call, fair enough, if not, then yes, that is not right. They can either say yes or no to you and not bring payment into the equation when they were advertising it as TF.
May 22 13 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
Yeah, that is definitely false advertising. If someone puts up a casting call that they are looking to work TF, then they should accept TF offers based around that casting call.

However, sometimes with casting calls, models are looking for a certain photography style in particular. So a polite message back saying "Sorry, your style isn't what I had in mind for this particular project, but if you would still like to work together my rates are ____" would be better.

I think some of it is just miscommunication. If they are offering rates for a project different from the casting call, fair enough, if not, then yes, that is not right. They can either say yes or no to you and not bring payment into the equation when they were advertising it as TF.

Uh..no. That still leaves it open to abuse. Never leave an door open wide enough for a snake to slither through.

May 22 13 11:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WMcK
Posts: 5,227
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom


I have had a model, when I replied to a casting call, say that all my work work had the same pose and same lighting (which anyone looking at it can see is not true) so she would have to charge me. Later I discovered she had tried the same with many other photographers. I camed this at the time but no action was taken -her fraudulent posts were not taken down. Later I discovered the same model was asking for exhorbitant travel rates, many times the actual cost, for TFP castings.
May 22 13 11:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WMcK
Posts: 5,227
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom


Natural Means wrote:
Can the wording in the entry screen be more precise to stop the misuse of casting? Instead of prompt saying "Paid?" maybe say "I'm offering to pay". And in the Availibility entry screen say "Seeking payement".

A good idea but in my experience it is not usually a misunderstanding, but a case of bait and hook.

May 22 13 01:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Natural Means wrote:
Can the wording in the entry screen be more precise to stop the misuse of casting? Instead of prompt saying "Paid?" maybe say "I'm offering to pay". And in the Availibility entry screen say "Seeking payement".
WMcK wrote:
A good idea but in my experience it is not usually a misunderstanding, but a case of bait and hook.

It would be good if MM would rephrase it so an intentional bait-and-switch isn't so easily defended by "Golly, I didn't know."

May 22 13 01:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12,629
Midland, Texas, US


So basically... she's doing trade work... just not with you.
May 22 13 01:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Nicolette wrote:
So basically... she's doing trade work... just not with you.

Or she is full of shit....either way offering up rates in a casting call reply is not permitted and tactless.

May 22 13 02:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12,629
Midland, Texas, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
Or she is full of shit....either way offering up rates in a casting call reply is not permitted and tactless.

Perhaps. We don't know that for sure though. I've posted castings for TF shoots before. When a photographer I did not feel was the one for that shoot contacted me, I said pretty much exactly this:

"Thanks for the response, but I am going to continue looking for someone who I feel is a better fit for this shoot. However, if you'd still like to work with me, my rates are XYZ."

Posting a casting for TF doesn't mean you TF with everyone that responds. You aren't obligated to do that.

May 22 13 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Nicolette wrote:

We don't know that though. I've posted castings for TF shoots before. When a photographer I did not feel was the one for that shoot contacted me, I said pretty much exactly this:

"Thanks for the response, but I am going to continue looking for someone who I feel is a better fit for this shoot. However, if you'd still like to work with me, my rates are XYZ."

Posting a casting for TF doesn't mean you TF with everyone that responds. You aren't obligated to do that.

No but you are not permitted to try and change it into a paid gig for yourself either. Best wait a few weeks then send your rates in a new message apart from the casting call. Otherwise how does anyone know you don't say the same to everyone?

May 22 13 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Nicolette wrote:
So basically... she's doing trade work... just not with you.

Pretty much. When I put up an availability notice for paid work, i get a whole bunch of emails offering TFP. That can't be coincidence.

So they see I'm looking for paid work, which they aren't offering, and think I might be willing to do TFP as well. That's reasonable.

Just like it's reasonable for a model who you say you wan't to work with, who doesn't want to offer you TFP to send you rates.

May 22 13 02:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12,629
Midland, Texas, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
No but you are not permitted to try and change it into a paid gig for yourself either. Best wait a few weeks then send your rates in a new message apart from the casting call. Otherwise how does anyone know you don't say the same to everyone?

That's not trying to change a gig, by any means. That's saying "Hey, you're not right for this. But if you wanna work with me anyways [knowing full well it won't be for that trade shoot], these are the terms."  I don't get upset when photographers do that to me. It's the nature of the beast and the way this business works.

I'm not going to cold call them for work at a later date [when I can only start 15 messages a day as is] when they have already expressed interest in working with me. If they say no thanks to the terms, then that's their right. I'll wish them a good day/week/month/whatever, move on with my day, and tell them perhaps we can work together another time.

But a brand new message, weeks later with "HEY YOU RESPONDED TO MY CASTING A WHILE BACK, HERE ARE MY RATES YO".... that is tactless.

May 22 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:

No but you are not permitted to try and change it into a paid gig for yourself either. Best wait a few weeks then send your rates in a new message apart from the casting call. Otherwise how does anyone know you don't say the same to everyone?

Photographers seem perfectly capable of using the phrase "I don't have any paid work to offer at the moment, but I'm willing to offer a TFP shoot if you are interested" to me. Try that.

What I say to other people is not your problem.

May 22 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images By Joseph
Posts: 866
Naperville, Illinois, US


If your looking to be paid by models from this site
BOY ARE YOU IN THE WRONGPLACE

Welcome to the world of Internet modeling
May 22 13 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,517
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


JadeDRed wrote:
To be honest, whilst i understand the differences between casting/availability/travel i feel the system is a little bit overly complicated. Since there are search options for location and date and work being offered/solicited, i don't see why they can't just all be in the same section. I understand in a forum setting it would be annoying to have people clogging up the forum soliciting work when people are trying to find work but with the search options it would seem simple enough. Obviously people would still try to manipulate the system but might result in less mistakes through lack of understanding.

How in the world is it overly complicated? Every time you post a casting call the rules pop up, plain as day, explaining the process. The reality is, most people never bother to actually read the rules or educate themselves on basic industry vocabulary. A Casting Call is a post for work. Nothing more, nothing less. The compensation for such a posting is either for pay or for TFP (a form of pay). "Negotiable" simply means the amount you are willing to pay. In no way, shape, or form is a casting call designed to be an advertisement, which is what many people think it is. I just reported a casting call this morning that was made in no uncertain terms that it was a model looking to get booked for gigs and the desire to be paid for such work. That's not a casting call, that's an advertisement.

May 22 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Shot By Adam wrote:
How in the world is it overly complicated?

Well, for a start, if i'm available to shoot in a location 2 hours away in a car its 'availability notice', if i'm available to shoot 3 hours away it's 'travel notice'. It's the same thing since I have to state the location anyway but i need to work out car distances (I don't drive) to work out which one I'm offering. I find that to be unnecessarily complicated.

May 22 13 02:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 214
Chicago, Illinois, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
Uh..no. That still leaves it open to abuse. Never leave an door open wide enough for a snake to slither through.

It's a complicated line, and to be honest it varies from case to case, but I still think that someone has a right to offer their rates/not work with someone if their work is not what they're interested in for that particular project. I don't think shooting that particular project paid when they are advertising TF is right, but if someone puts up a TF casting call, they still have bills to pay, and should still be able to accept paid work for other things.

I do, however agree that a casting call is not the place to look for paid work, whereas an advertisement is. With a casting call, you can choose who you want to work with however.

May 22 13 06:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GingerMuse
Posts: 369
STUDIO CITY, California, US


lol. this is not just with models.
are you responding to their castings directly or messaging them without them realizing that you are responding to their TF casting? Most likely they do not really like your work and don't want to work with you unless you pay them. I'm assuming they just don't want to actually tell you that so they just send you their rates.
as far as the negotiable aspect, they clearly don't read what that means or don't care. just flag them.
May 22 13 06:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WMcK
Posts: 5,227
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom


GingerMuse wrote:
Most likely they do not really like your work and don't want to work with you unless you pay them. I'm assuming they just don't want to actually tell you that so they just send you their rates.

In the case I was referring to the model tried this on with at least half a dozen photographers. Told them their poses and lighting was all the same which was a downright lie, if she did not like their work she should have said so instead of lying about it. In her next casting call, which I did not answer but knew people who did, she wanted the equivalent of $200 "travelling expenses for a journey costing barely quarter of that - but these were travelling expenses to the city where she had advertised the call!

May 22 13 07:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


JadeDRed wrote:

Photographers seem perfectly capable of using the phrase "I don't have any paid work to offer at the moment, but I'm willing to offer a TFP shoot if you are interested" to me. Try that.

What I say to other people is not your problem.

You are comparing apples to oranges. We cannot post a casting call where you are expected to pay nor are we allowed to suggest you do in the reply.

May 24 13 11:23 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12,629
Midland, Texas, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:

You are comparing apples to oranges. We cannot post a casting call where you are expected to pay nor are we allowed to suggest you do in the reply.

I've responded to a photographers TF casting before and received a very simple, "Your look isn't quite right for this casting. If you'd still like to shoot, ym rates are XYZ."

And there was nothing wrong with that.

Just like there's nothing wrong with a model saying that.

May 24 13 02:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Nicolette wrote:

I've responded to a photographers TF casting before and received a very simple, "Your look isn't quite right for this casting. If you'd still like to shoot, ym rates are XYZ."

And there was nothing wrong with that.

Just like there's nothing wrong with a model saying that.

Please CAM any photographer who does that. We are not allowed to do that. Its not the place for that and it diminishes the casting call if people think they are going to get bait and switched. All we can reply is yes or no thanks.

May 25 13 04:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dean Johnson Photo
Posts: 55,847
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Moderator Note!

Chain Reaction wrote:
They all have a "Report this casting" link on them. Just use that if they are not following the rules.

This.

Though one may wish to follow up the report via CAM as just reporting the casting won't really tell us what the issue is. There's isn't an option for "castings says TF but I contacted them and they are actually seeking pay" when reporting a casting so an explanation may be in order.

CAM = Contact A Mod. The link to contact us is found under the help tab.

But when it comes to casting calls, generally it is sufficient to simply report them without using CAM.

May 25 13 04:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Gerhart
Posts: 736
San Antonio, Texas, US


Ava Photography wrote:
Please pardon me but I do not know how else to describe the issue succinctly in the subject line.

Issue 1

I have had several experiences while responding to female models who post casting calls for TFP photographers.  When I respond, the female model answers that she is not doing TFP but seeking paid work.

While I am at it...

Issue 2

Equivalent if not worse are some female models who cast for photographers on a "negotiable" basis which often seems to turn out to mean that the she wants to negotiate a fee for her services as a model from the photographer, not vice versa.  I think the female models who do this may be abusing the intent of the MM casting call posting feature and should really be using the MM availability notice posting feature.

Both of these issues interfere with photographers who are seriously interested to find female models legitimately interested in TFP or paid photographer services on MM.

If these are well known issues, then why do they persist?  If they are actually not issues, I would appreciate being informed as to the actual intent of the casting call and availability notice MM features.  Thanks.

CAM these and let the mods take care of it. This should not be happening.

May 25 13 04:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dean Johnson Photo
Posts: 55,847
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Cherrystone wrote:
Casting calls have been out of control for a long time....a very long time.
Good luck CAM'ing them.

Actually we have been keeping on top of reported castings for a long time, a very long time.

Currently there are about 20 open reports on castings.

May 25 13 04:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
UCPhotog
Posts: 984
Union City, California, US


Ava Photography wrote:
I do not dispute that.

However, it is also true that the model is able to respond to the photographer and let the photographer know that she is passing on the photographer's offer because the photographer's portfolio does not seem to her a good fit for her vision for the shoot.

I agree with your thoughts and interpretation of the rules for these postings. I also know that the moderators are a busy group. As one noted, just click on the flag button. They can always contact you via reverse CAM. Save emails. And continue to flag. If we as a community work together well and do what's right, including educating those who are not following the rules, it will make it better for all of us.

May 25 13 04:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
UCPhotog
Posts: 984
Union City, California, US


Nicolette wrote:

I've responded to a photographers TF casting before and received a very simple, "Your look isn't quite right for this casting. If you'd still like to shoot, ym rates are XYZ."

And there was nothing wrong with that.

Just like there's nothing wrong with a model saying that.

+1 agreed - there is nothing wrong with it - as long as the poster was specific in what they are looking for and the responder doesn't fit the criteria. If a photographer simply said "looking for female model for art shoot" and a woman replied, with his response stating she doesn't fit, but he gives rates, to me that sounds more like bait and switch.

May 25 13 04:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12,629
Midland, Texas, US


UCPhotog wrote:

+1 agreed - there is nothing wrong with it - as long as the poster was specific in what they are looking for and the responder doesn't fit the criteria. If a photographer simply said "looking for female model for art shoot" and a woman replied, with his response stating she doesn't fit, but he gives rates, to me that sounds more like bait and switch.

Well, yes. But that was what I was saying. If they say their look doesn't fit the shoot, then the look doesn't fit the shoot. There's nothing wrong with a new set of negotiations after that.

May 25 13 08:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographe
Posts: 2,350
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


The model who contacts me with "would love to work with you" is actually, 95% of the time, saying "I would love to be paid by you". No-one has ever said "I would like to work FOR you".

I've experienced what the OP describes, a clothed TF call is put out, and a discussion begins, where I might try to engage the model creatively, or simply find out (since it is TF) what their needs are too, or what clothes we have between us, but my question is answered with an announcement of nude rates.

At that point I feel I am wise to end the discussion and can't help but remind myself of the Select and Models1 agency models who paid their petrol, paid for prints, bought me lunch, spent 2 days discussing the clothes with the stylist, shopping, rolled me a spliff, gave me four extra hours, etc etc... all for a test/TF.

Some MM models are as good as, if not better in some ways than agency models, but a fair amount don't seem to realize, they will get PR/marketing, all they need to do is answer questions, think, turn up.

If you look at the UK employment market recently, there are more and more self-employed and casual/temporary vacancies available now in offices. The UK is gearing towards a boom in self-employment in the workplace. Some people will always go to an agent or producer for the guarantees that they provide, but there is an opportunity there for the a model with a good work ethic, attitude and student mentality to not be working for £25/40 per hour. But that will never come by testing with the wrong person A. and then charging the wrong person B. £25 per hour and having said "I would LOVE to work with you", then not actually showing any devotion to making that unpaid shoot a success.

It's likely to be the people that I am testing or TF with that I will consider for paid work, MORE than someone I have not met.
May 26 13 03:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:

You are comparing apples to oranges. We cannot post a casting call where you are expected to pay nor are we allowed to suggest you do in the reply.

No one is comparing anything to anything. I said if getting rates from a model makes you so super sad then mention you wont pay in the initial contact like millions of other messages do and you will reduce the chances of that horrible, emotionally scarring situation occurring.

May 26 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


UCPhotog wrote:
...to me that sounds more like bait and switch.

To me it sounds like you aren't good enough for the job. But whatever helps you sleep at night.

May 26 13 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strength Studios
Posts: 333
West Hazleton, Pennsylvania, US


Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

Really?? I thought they could post castings for paid work as long as it was listed under the "paid" section in the castings.

A paid casting is supposed to mean that the person posting the casing is paying others, not looking to be paid. It's like posting a job in the help wanted section and then expecting the applicant to pay you.

May 26 13 11:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lilu Lynn
Posts: 55
Portland, Oregon, US


I just started using the castings and I have had luck.. I have contacted 5 different people and 4 put TFP and that is what we did.. The other offered pay and even though I said they didn't have to pay me they did sence I replied to there post in which it was stated they thought it un-fair not to..
I think it not fair to put tfp and send rates.. unless if you do not wish to work tfp with that person BUT, in that case I would say STATE that and maby WHY you think they should pay you? Just because someone puts TFP dousen't mean they have to accept every person who replies..
Point is communication is always best and repected. :-)
May 26 13 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


JadeDRed wrote:

No one is comparing anything to anything. I said if getting rates from a model makes you so super sad then mention you wont pay in the initial contact like millions of other messages do and you will reduce the chances of that horrible, emotionally scarring situation occurring.

Perhaps there is something being lost in the translation. Casting calls are not to directly or indirectly solicit for paid work. There is no need to say you won't pay when the call clearly say TF. Save your sarcasm..it weakens your position.

May 26 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EdwardKristopher
Posts: 3,338
Tempe, Arizona, US


Can't we all...just get along...?  :-)
May 26 13 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:

Perhaps there is something being lost in the translation. Casting calls are not to directly or indirectly solicit for paid work. There is no need to say you won't pay when the call clearly say TF. Save your sarcasm..it weakens your position.

Hey, you're the one who is whining, I gave you advice that could help you deal with the problem, like almost everyone else manages too. Your answer is 'no, why should i help myself when everyone else should just do what I want because I want them to'. I have no position, this is no problem to me whatsoever. I can get plenty enough TFP work with out having to stamp my little feet any time someone turns me down.

May 26 13 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,336
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


JadeDRed wrote:

Hey, you're the one who is whining, I gave you advice that could help you deal with the problem, like almost everyone else manages too. Your answer is 'no, why should i help myself when everyone else should just do what I want because I want them to'. I have no position, this is no problem to me whatsoever. I can get plenty enough TFP work with out having to stamp my little feet any time someone turns me down.

Could you get a little more condescending? I don't think you are getting everyone's point and I don't have any crayons handy to help you so I will walk away.

May 26 13 09:49 pm  Link  Quote 
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