Tina Zhou wrote:
.. I emailed him two weeks ago asking about the photos nicely, no reply. I emailed him a few days ago on MM about the photos nicely as well. Read the message, never replied.
..

What can you do?  Presumably you made a TFP arrangement with him and he hasn't held up his end of the bargain yet.  Unless he said it was going to take some time, waiting up to 3 weeks for contact is reasonable, and then pursue the usual options - IM, email and phone.  If he cannot provide the photos for some reason, then you should ask to be compensated in some other way.  If he refuses to respond then there is not much else you can do - either wait it out or move on. Sorry 2hear. I think many/most photographers are more reliable than this, else TFP wouldn't even be an option.

Tina Zhou wrote:
He also forgot to give me a model release at the shoot and said he will email it to me after, which also never happened.

Just as an FYI - in case you weren't aware - this actually works in your favor.

Tina Zhou wrote:
So I shot with a fine art photographer in the beginning of July and I asked him how long will it take for him to send me the photos, he said about two weeks. He also forgot to give me a model release at the shoot and said he will email it to me after, which also never happened.

I am very careful with picking which photographer to work with, our discussion about the the type of photos we are trying to achieve was very clear, and the photo shoot was very professional and went well.

I emailed him two weeks ago asking about the photos nicely, no reply. I emailed him a few days ago on MM about the photos nicely as well. Read the message, never replied.

I understand lots of photographers take longer than they say they do when processing photos, but he's a fine art photographer and at the shoot he said he doesn't edit his photos much because he likes to keep them as natural as possible.

I'm frustrated because it has been almost two month and he's not responding. Even an update would help but he has not said anything. I am thinking about calling him, but I'm just worried he will do the same and won't pick up.

So models, when something like this happens, what do you do? What can we do to help ourselves?

This comes up all the time on MM.
People are quick to jump into a shoot, yet slow to get back to the model with photos.

My advice: Keep two lists on your public profile.

On one you can list the photographers that eventually gave you photos (i.e., everything went well).

On the other you can list the photographers that have not kept their promises, and from whom you are still waiting for photos - (list the waiting time as well). You can remove them when you get your photos.

The time that you wait before you add a photographer to your second list can range from the time promised, to any arbitrary number (e.g., 6 weeks).

It is not a Blacklist with opinions or derogatory comments.
It's simply a "Work in Progress" list.

This will not guarantee that you will get your photos, but you will feel better, and there is a good chance that a photographer that cares about his/her professional reputation will simply comply quickly.

MnPhoto wrote:

This comes up all the time on MM.
People are quick to jump into a shoot, yet slow to get back to the model with photos.

My advice: Keep two lists on your public profile.

On one you can list the photographers that eventually gave you photos (i.e., everything went well).

On the other you can list the photographers that have not kept their promises, and from whom you are still waiting for photos - (list the waiting time as well). You can remove them when you get your photos.

The time that you wait before you add a photographer to your second list can range from the time promised, to any arbitrary number (e.g., 6 weeks).

It is not a Blacklist with opinions or derogatory comments.
It's simply a "Work in Progress" list.

This will not guarantee that you will get your photos, but you will feel better, and there is a good chance that a photographer that cares about his/her professional reputation will simply comply quickly.

Problem with public lists of any kind is they can been seen as "too much drama" and people would avoid her.

Darren Brade wrote:
Problem with public lists of any kind is they can been seen as "too much drama" and people would avoid her.

+1

OP, keep touching base with him every few weeks but remain nice about it!

If you pester him or start to get pissy then you will almost certainly never see any photos; if, on the other hand, you keep pricking his conscience ever so politely from time to time it's possible that he will eventually feel guilty and do something about it.

There's always a chance of course that the photos were simply so bad that he doesn't feel happy to share them but it's probably more likely that he's just busy and not able to get around to them right now.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Darren Brade wrote:
Problem with public lists of any kind is they can been seen as "too much drama" and people would avoid her.

Normally, I would agree with this notion, but as is the case in most "first impression" situations, it is not the "taste", but the presentation that counts.

For example, a list like this...

Photographers I Have Worked With (Updated 08/29/2013)
Joe Schmoe MM# 123456 - Photoshoot 08/03/2013
John Doe.    MM# 999999 - Photoshoot 02/07/2012 - Still waiting for photos
Fig Newton   MM# 777777 - Photoshoot 07/02/1980
Etc.

...looks somewhat professional, and a hell of a lot better than some rants you read on some people's profiles. No disqualifying or derogatory comments are necessary.

The OP has already tried to communicate, and it is obvious that she is now being ignored. Updating a list and moving on allows her to keep some of the dignity she may feel she lost by chasing after the photographer after he got what he wanted. If she gets photos, then she can remove the extra comment. There is no need to post that it took 6 months to get them.

I sit on the fence for a lot of issues, because I am a firm believer that there are always two sides to a story, but I also believe that if a photographer can't make the time to provide a single image after a TFP photoshoot, because s/he is a) too busy or b) not happy with the results
Then...
S/he should a) schedule less shoots OR b) practice a bit more by working with people that DO NOT expect photos in return for their time.

MnPhoto wrote:
Normally, I would agree with this notion, but as is the case in most "first impression" situations, it is not the "taste", but the presentation that counts.

For example...

Photographers I Have Worked With (Updated 08/29/2013)
Joe Schmoe MM# 123456 - Photoshoot 08/03/2013
John Doe.    MM# 999999 - Photoshoot 02/07/2012 - Still waiting for photos
Fig Newton   MM# 777777 - Photoshoot 07/02/1980
Etc.

...looks somewhat professional, and a hell of a lot better than some rants you read on some people's profiles.

The OP has already tried to communicate, and it is obvious that she is now being ignored. Updating a list and moving on allows her to keep some of the dignity she may feel she lost by chasing after the photographer after he got what he wanted.

(had to change your quote to italics since MM was simply deleting the nested quote.)

Yeah, public shaming is always a great way to present yourself as being super professional.

Greg Kolack wrote:
Just as an FYI - in case you weren't aware - this actually works in your favor.

Yup!

Tina Zhou wrote:
So I shot with a fine art photographer in the beginning of July and I asked him how long will it take for him to send me the photos, he said about two weeks. He also forgot to give me a model release at the shoot and said he will email it to me after, which also never happened.

I am very careful with picking which photographer to work with, our discussion about the the type of photos we are trying to achieve was very clear, and the photo shoot was very professional and went well.

I emailed him two weeks ago asking about the photos nicely, no reply. I emailed him a few days ago on MM about the photos nicely as well. Read the message, never replied.

I understand lots of photographers take longer than they say they do when processing photos, but he's a fine art photographer and at the shoot he said he doesn't edit his photos much because he likes to keep them as natural as possible.

I'm frustrated because it has been almost two month and he's not responding. Even an update would help but he has not said anything. I am thinking about calling him, but I'm just worried he will do the same and won't pick up.

So models, when something like this happens, what do you do? What can we do to help ourselves?

Well, as far as the model release, always get that signed before the first image is taken, never after or just forget about it.  So, in this case, forget about it, it's not going to happen, take it as a learning experience and move on.  As far as the pics, was it a trade shoot or did he pay you?  If it was trade, maybe send a bit more pressure getting the images, if he paid you, you got your pictures on each dollar he gave you, of course, you look like the person on the money.

Tina Zhou wrote:
So I shot with a fine art photographer in the beginning of July and I asked him how long will it take for him to send me the photos, he said about two weeks. He also forgot to give me a model release at the shoot and said he will email it to me after, which also never happened.

I am very careful with picking which photographer to work with, our discussion about the the type of photos we are trying to achieve was very clear, and the photo shoot was very professional and went well.

I emailed him two weeks ago asking about the photos nicely, no reply. I emailed him a few days ago on MM about the photos nicely as well. Read the message, never replied.

I understand lots of photographers take longer than they say they do when processing photos, but he's a fine art photographer and at the shoot he said he doesn't edit his photos much because he likes to keep them as natural as possible.

I'm frustrated because it has been almost two month and he's not responding. Even an update would help but he has not said anything. I am thinking about calling him, but I'm just worried he will do the same and won't pick up.

So models, when something like this happens, what do you do? What can we do to help ourselves?

This sounds very bad - sorry to hear that. Best bet is to call - better to have the truth out and in the open than to wait.

MnPhoto wrote:
I am with you regarding public shaming. As I mentioned above, there are always two sides to a story, hence the reason to use factual information only, avoid using opinions/personal attacks, and making sure those types of lists are current.

Using lists in a responsible way can be done. It's just that a lot of people are careless when they write OR they bring a lot of personal baggage to the table when they see a list, by automatically assuming it is a public shaming.

I thought your suggestion was great and it only states a fact without dipping into the drama.

John Jebbia wrote:
2. They booked way too much TFP and got overwhelmed with post work and just said fuckit.

ontherocks wrote:
that has happened to me but in those cases i opened my wallet and paid a mayhem retoucher (and fortunately you can find some good deals in marketplace).

for my part i think reputation matters. i don't want to ever stiff a model without a good reason.

That assumes that the retouchers are going to be able to do the work that you want in the way that you want.

Sometimes, trying to get a retoucher to create the look you want can be much harder than people realize, it isn't as easy as simply making a handoff and letting them run with the ball.

Of course, these threads will always be filled with photographers who want to brag about how great they are and how they would never do a poor job getting images to models, not sure how that is really on-topic or helpful, but it is certainly something that can be counted on.

Personally, I find it really frustrating when people over-simplify things or assume that what is true for them is true for everyone.

For the OP, there really is nothing you can do.  All you can do is be nice, be patient, and ask if there is anything you can do to help, aside from that all you can do is wait.

DougBPhoto wrote:
Of course, these threads will always be filled with photographers who want to brag about how great they are and how they would never do a poor job getting images to models, not sure how that is really on-topic or helpful, but it is certainly something that can be counted on.

ontherocks wrote:
to me it's along the lines of "don't screw people" (unless you have a good reason). if you can't get the model her images (for no good reason other than you lost interest) then you should send her a check for her time.

in this case we haven't heard from the photographer so we can only speculate about his situation. but personally i think that photographers owe the model the truth. anything else is at the elementary school level of human behavior. grow a pair already. of course sometimes the truth might be that the photographer felt the model didn't do a good job. but that's not for him to decide on a trade shoot IMHO.

now i did hear of one photographer who withheld images unless he got sexual favors. and others who play favorites. so it can get weird like that.

but of course this is all speculation without hearing from the photographer.

to me reputation matters and always will matter. it's part of being a responsible adult. we all screw up now and then but in those cases at least try to make it right.

Exactly, we can't project on what a person's reasons may be... we have no idea if they are legitimate, if it is lazy, or mistake/error.

My point was that in your prior note, you seemed to be grossly oversimplifying how easy it is to get images completed, but that is projection that what is true for one is true for all and that clearly isn't the case.

You talk about it being speculation, which it is, yet that does not stop people from saying how easy things are or how easy other options are and how they would never take so long...

but again, even that is speculation, not just speculation on what the problems (if any) may be, but also speculating that they would perform better in a situation where they don't know the facts or the problems.

The OP is asking what she can do to get her images and to avoid such things in the future, and there are no easy answers because each situation is different and what is true for you is not automatically true for everyone else.

DougBPhoto wrote:
My point was that in your prior note, you seemed to be grossly oversimplifying how easy it is to get images completed, but that is projection that what is true for one is true for all and that clearly isn't the case.

ontherocks wrote:
i've spent an entire day on one image before but if the photographer can't handle getting the images done within a month or two they have no business doing trade shoots! they should be paying.

or just give the model a session CD already and let her find her own retoucher (and some of the models are also photographers and retouchers).

That is great, but still speculating and I'm not sure how it answers the OP's question

I'm still struggling with understanding why this thread is about what you do, or what you think photographers should do, when this seems to be the model forum and a model is asking what she should do.

Has the OP even stated if this was trade or paid?

You can keep speculating and saying what you feel other photographers should do, but I'm not sure how that helps the OP in the slightest.

Of course she could listen to you and start telling photographers that she expects photos to be put on a jump drive or CD at the completion of the shoot, but most of us realize that isn't going to go over very well and is likely to do her for more harm than benefit.

Tina Zhou wrote:
So models, when something like this happens, what do you do? What can we do to help ourselves?

There isn't much you can do, aside from being patient, positive, and taking care to make sure that you don't accidentally make the photographer feel like you're being a nag or a pest.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens far more frequently than it should, and there really isn't anything a model can do to solve it or to prevent it.

You can, of course, check references before you shoot and talk with other models to find out if the photographer delivered images in the time frame that was promised, but that is not an absolute guarantee of what will happen in the future.

You can try to put demands on photographers, but the more demanding you sound the more photographers will want to have nothing to do with you and you shoot yourself in the foot.

DougBPhoto wrote:
Of course she could listen to you and start telling photographers that she expects photos to be put on a jump drive or CD at the completion of the shoot, but most of us realize that isn't going to go over very well and is likely to do her for more harm than benefit.

Greg Kolack wrote:

Just as an FYI - in case you weren't aware - this actually works in your favor.

Not in Ontario. No release is same as release...doesn't change anything. No right to likeness here. He didn't send her one cause it is pointless.

Tina Zhou wrote:
I'm sorry everyone, I forgot to mention it was TFP shoot. I kinda got the idea that I wasn't getting the photos, but it bugs me that someone has photographs of me that I do not have. I think what most likely happened is that he booked too many shoots and his post work is too backed up. He has a full time job and does photo shoots a couple of times a week in a rented studio. I have seen most of the photos on his camera at the shoot and they are not bad photos (I think I have pretty good judgement).

Thanks for the replies everyone, it has been very helpful. I think I need to be a lot more careful with whom I work with.

Good info.

Since it was TF you definitely deserve what you were promised.  Ideally in the time frame you were promised, but sometimes unexpected things do happen.  That is just reality.

It is true that someone who has another full time job (and possibly additional obligations beyond that) might have a harder time getting work done than someone who is a full time professional, but that would be making an assumption/guess and is not likely to always be true.  (Which is why it is good to talk to other models and find out their experiences beforehand, kind of like how Nicole wanted to ask you who this person is.)

Lastly, for now, the LCD is just a quick guide, it is by no means accurate or true representation of the images.  LCD's can often make you think color/contrast looks better than it does, and it certainly can make you think images are sharper than they are, so don't count on LCD as gospel, it is a tiny representation of the image after the camera has processed it some, nothing you can take to the bank.

Hopefully you will get them soon, and he's just having issues that he does not want to specify.  People are not always good at admitting the truth as to why they are having problems.  Patience and understanding (even if you really are neither) can go a long way.

ontherocks wrote:
plus i bet if we heard from the photographer it might start getting murky (maybe she pissed him off or otherwise did something that he feels justifies not getting her images). so much of everything on mayhem forums is speculative or even hypothetical. but hopefully there's some entertainment value in it!

now that you mention it, this might be of relevance. The casting call he posted was for lingerie/implied nude, and he said that it's fine if you are not comfortable doing implied nude, lingerie is fine, which is why I responded, and I did indicate to him I am only comfortable with lingerie before hand. He inboxed me inspiration photos and about half lingerie half implied. While preping for the shoot at the studio, we were talking about the type of photos we were going to do, and i said I'm only doing lingerie, then he says "well you know the type of photos i take, you have seen my portfolio" (his port was full of nude/implied nude, but I was thinking he was interested in trying out something else) My reply was "your casting says lingerie is fine" While shooting, he tried to convince me to do implied nude shots and I decided to do a few photos without a bra, because I did see that it is much more tasteful without a bra. When he asked if I was going to take off my underwear, and I refused.

The next day, he emailed me two untouched photos saying these are samples and asked me what i thought of those. In the email also said he needed a model tomorrow because another model was being flaky, and he asked me if I wanted to shoot again the following Thursday. I thanked him for the photos and said unfortunately I didn't see your email on time to schedule any shoots with you.

In my judgement, I don't think these reasons are enough to tick off a professional photographer, but with unreasonable people, you never know i guess.

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
Did you shoot at his studio/house? If so I would show up asking in person. Otherwise not much you can do.

Yeah don't do this, it's really rude and will make you look bad especially if it turns out he has a good excuse to not have returned the images.  That's like calling non stop until he answers, it's just not professional and what's most important is maintaining a good rep.