Gennaver Jen B wrote:
Yes, yes, close attention but to the task. It is only twice that I actually noticed 'out of the zone of the task' at the person's girth.

I am a firm, (no pun intended) believer in giving very good patient care and using very good clinical skills. It is a job I do not treat lightly or pithily and consider it an honor to be a nurse.
Jen

I wish I could "Like" what you wrote.
I guess I am doing it, by quoting you.

Nurses do not get the credit they deserve.

SPierce Photography wrote:

Exactly! Although I don't really participate in the forums anymore, I've got too much to do outside of these and i haven't booked a shoot off MM in a long time... i lurk in the photography forum and like to stick my nose into random threads and give my opinion!

Honestly, I think the models should have a photographer free zone to chat about model stuff.

+1

I was somewhat on the fence until I read all the over the top comments on this thread. It only highlighted the point the moderator was making and I now have to agree it may be more productive for models to be able to speak on their own thread if they so choose.

Mark Salo wrote:
Contemplating the Models Only thread, I'm suggesting that models not be allowed in the Photography Talk forum.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=922000

What you're getting at is a need for private discussions.

When a community grows, if the members don't have access to private discussions it can kill the community. So can key members leaving public discussions and only participating in private ones.

At the bare minimum changing the status of existing forums is a terrible idea. Adding separate forums is the best way to do this.

Mikey McMichaels wrote:

What you're getting at is a need for private discussions.

When a community grows, if the members don't have access to private discussions it can kill the community. So can key members leaving public discussions and only participating in private ones.

At the bare minimum changing the status of existing forums is a terrible idea. Adding separate forums is the best way to do this.

Sorry what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  I say if models need white knight photographers to "take care" of them then it is only fair models not be allowed in the photographers page.

Isis22 wrote:

I think that both models and photographers should be allowed to ask a question with input from just models or photographers. But, that never happens. We ARE different. For a man to say he knows more about my breasts or my pubic hair is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying I know more about a penis than you do. I would hope you know more about that!

Maybe he is telling you his preferance and at last I have come to understand (From MC) the fact that when models charge photographers, it's the photographers who ARE the clients and clients should be able to express their preferences.

Again hyperbolic examples from you.

Who said anything to you about Boobs or pubic hair, I certainly didn't.

Nor would I!  I have shot countless nudes and I have never demanded how a model should shave or not shave their pubic hair.  I take them as they come.  And I don't talk about a woman's breasts either.  There is a great diversity in the body shapes of women and photographers should accept and honor them all.

So why bring up MY penis. What I know or don't know is none of your business.  Dont over generalize photographers for a few bad actors.

I call foul on you for this is the tone and the language you complain about in the MC. 

And your personal attack on me is not warrented or called for.    Please if you can't stop your insults then maybe you should not play in the forums. You should know this, harassment and a hostile work environment  (if you can call MM such) is NOT based on what you intended but what the  alleged victim perceives.

Isis22 wrote:
I think that both models and photographers should be allowed to ask a question with input from just models or photographers. But, that never happens. We ARE different. For a man to say he knows more about my breasts or my pubic hair is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying I know more about a penis than you do. I would hope you know more about that!

Put up a forum posting about boobs or beavers on the model forum and most of the contributors will be from male photographers.
No one can say that these boob and beaver experts don't have an in depth knowledge some have made it a life long study.

-JAY- wrote:
HOW IS THIS AN ISSUE!!?!?!

Apparently people are being asshats in the model forum... well... brig them...

If they do it again... brig them some more...

If they keep doing it... brig them so they can't post anymore...

Apparently the mods are complaining they don't have the time to actually do what they're supposed to do in the forums which is get rid of jerks.

Isis22 wrote:
I think that both models and photographers should be allowed to ask a question with input from just models or photographers. But, that never happens. We ARE different. For a man to say he knows more about my breasts or my pubic hair is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying I know more about a penis than you do. I would hope you know more about that!

The idea that my gender makes me an expert on certain topics and an ignorant on others is ridiculous and offensive.

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
It was a stupid idea

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=922003

I wouldn't say that it was "stupid".

I think there are arguments that the suggestion was "unnecessary" or "unwanted" but the fact that photographers don't see the value in the QUESTION...not a demand...just a question...is unfortunate.

Think about it: based on the reasons given, the MOD wanted to hear from the users whom a models-only page *might* benefit, if it were enacted. What's wrong with that? As a photog have I really been harmed or prevented from voicing an opinion about the topic? I think this thread proves that the answer is 'nopes'.

I also sent the OP a PM suggesting the forum should be kept intact and a new "Model's Only" section be added to the forum since at least *some* models were stating they thought it would be a good idea. This way, the community can make what it will out of such a page and if there's a need, it will evolve on its own.

Personally, if I were a model, I *would* want a models-only page in the forum. Why? Because (like the mod), there might be times I want to hear from models only and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Is it possible--having posted in a models-only forum--that I might miss a valuable perspective from a photographer?  Sure.  But it is (in the words of Bobby Brown) my perogative. : )

As a photographer, I neither take offense nor fear such a perspective.

DougBPhoto wrote:
[
Now, you're going to tell me that all seems simple (and I'm sure I have left some things out) compared to simply using the code that already exists for restricted forums and using that to make a private subforum for models?

Actually I was thinking of a private subforum. Seems the easiest and most logical.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
It's like having a debate, inviting representatives from both sides of an issue, but only letting one side actually take the stage and speak.

It makes sense if your goal is to promote a biased, one-sided perspective.

I agree.   Several days ago I had a fight with another member.   It wasn't really about the subject but personal.   I asked that we just do PM to keep our crap off of the thread.   That didn't happen and I could have stopped posting but I was angry.   There is more to the story.   I will avoid the Models Forum in the future.   A quick glance at that forum shows some good advice coming from  photographers.   However if models want a special place, fine.  I agree with your point but my feeling is the decision has already been made.   Some of you may not realize  this but there is agenda at play by several members.

They actively discourage models from doing test shoots as they feel its a waste of time.   They want to try and set prices and openly tell other models what projects aren't worth doing.   It will be as Abbitt has said.   Biased and one-sided and aren't we the ones paying and shooting models?   Not seeing many models paying us.   If it will help I will avoid posting in the models forum.

Just Danielle wrote:
Personally I think the whole idea is stupid, anyone should be allowed to input in any thread within the forums. If one doesn't like what's been written in a response on their thread then they're under no obligation to reply.......


   Is my reply going to get 'hidden' now because I've posted in the photographers only thread in the photographers only forum?

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
HEY! Get out of OUR Forum!!

Danielle - post your response above in the Model Forum. Perhaps it will help the certain crusading 'White Knight' Mods to understand that women can stand on their own two feet.

+1!!!

Let's KKKonsider what segregation has led us towards in the past..........

DBIphotography Toronto wrote:
+1!!!

Let's KKKonsider what segregation has led us towards in the past..........

I think that's taking the discussion at hand a little bit far.

Paul AI wrote:
I think that's taking the discussion at hand a little bit far.

Of course, I'm not even remotely serious at suggesting there's a parallel between the two! I was merely making a provocative statement to hopefully get people pondering “where would the segregation stop/lead to?”. And, “is this what moderators do whenever they can't live-up to the responsibilities they accepted to become “Moderators” to begin with?”.

See y'all in a week or two, when I'm outta the brig! Hehe! (unless I get perma-brigged AKA ejected for a silly post)




Please pardon any typographical errors, I've composed this post on my Windows-based Tablet

IMHO alone;

Ðanny
DBImagery Toronto (Website)
DBIphotography Toronto (Blog On Site)
   
“The vilest deeds – like poison weeds – bloom well in prison air; it is only what is good in man that wastes & withers there.”
~Oscar Wilde

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be. Anyone who questions the weight of my opinion(s) is free to validate my words based upon their review of my work – which may/may not be supportive.

IMnPhoto wrote:

I wish I could "Like" what you wrote.
I guess I am, by quoting you.

Nurses do not get the credit they deserve.

Thank you! I believe there are many angels among us actually, in all areas of life, (and in photographer/modeling too!)
Jen

GRMACK wrote:
Needs a Canon and Nikon users forum too to keep the brand-name squabbling down too.

Bwahahahah!

Nikon, (yet have used a Canon gladly!) I would be on the fence.

Mikey McMichaels wrote:

What you're getting at is a need for private discussions.

When a community grows, if the members don't have access to private discussions it can kill the community. So can key members leaving public discussions and only participating in private ones.

At the bare minimum changing the status of existing forums is a terrible idea. Adding separate forums is the best way to do this.

I'm currently choosing to not use my model profile, (my forum guide profile) and avoiding all things models only for now.

Not sure if I will come back as a model or not.

This site has been so useful and wonderful for me as a model but, now...not sure about as a model with models.
Jen

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I agree.   Several days ago I had a fight with another member.   It wasn't really about the subject but personal.   I asked that we just do PM to keep our crap off of the thread.   That didn't happen and I could have stopped posting but I was angry.   There is more to the story.   I will avoid the Models Forum in the future.   A quick glance at that forum shows some good advice coming from  photographers.   However if models want a special place, fine.  I agree with your point but my feeling is the decision has already been made.   Some of you may not realize  this but there is agenda at play by several members.

They actively discourage models from doing test shoots as they feel its a waste of time.   They want to try and set prices and openly tell other models what projects aren't worth doing.   It will be as Abbitt has said.   Biased and one-sided and aren't we the ones paying and shooting models?   Not seeing many models paying us.   If it will help I will avoid posting in the models forum.

as a trade only model I feel a bit vilified by paid only models. Likewise I will avoid that forum. Thanks for listening to my ranting, albeit from my "safe" photography profile.
Jen b.

Gennaver Jen B wrote:
as a trade only model I feel a bit vilified by paid only models. Likewise I will avoid that forum. Thanks for listening to my ranting, albeit from my "safe" photography profile.
Jen b.

I can understand that, certain very vocal models to tend to look down on TF models in the model forum. I've seen models bash models nearly as much as photographers over there. I've also seen some of those vocal models attack photographers there for no apparent reason other disregarding what they have to say for what I can only conclude is gender bias.

I guess most photographers are male and we all know that males are always wrong,  so kick out the photographers and that forum will be all sunshine, unicorns and rainbows.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Again hyperbolic examples from you.

Who said anything to you about Boobs or pubic hair, I certainly didn't.

Actually, they're common topics in the model forum, wherein many male photographers DO chime in with their "advice". Not, alas, hyperbole.

4 R D wrote:
The idea that my gender makes me an expert on certain topics and an ignorant on others is ridiculous and offensive.

Nobody can prevent you from being offended or trying to ridicule the truth. It doesn't make it any less true, but you can certainly be offended by it.

Kevin Connery wrote:

Actually, they're common topics in the model forum, wherein many male photographers DO chime in with their "advice". Not, alas, hyperbole.

I don't know much about breast care. My pubic hair is not dissimilar to a females...
What I do know is how they look in my lens...that is something that is important.

Gennaver Jen B wrote:
as a trade only model I feel a bit vilified by paid only models. Likewise I will avoid that forum. Thanks for listening to my ranting, albeit from my "safe" photography profile.
Jen b.

My feeling is if it makes some models feel better to be protected from mean photographers then let them have a special place.   Does segregation ever actually work?   Isn't the ideal to try and build and maintain a better community?  I've been accused by a member of hating MM models but the reality in my view is there is lot of mistrust and anger toward photographers.   One well known member has made it quite clear she has never paid a photographer nor would she and that other models shouldn't either.   Instead of photographers challenging that bs and other crap they meekly go along or say how they pay all their models.   Nothing wrong with that but don't they feel their work has worth as well.   Sometimes the price of free speech or expression will be people who are loud and in some cases argumentative. (me)   I want all voices heard.   Even that person I referenced and in any thread or forum they choose to post.

However it appears that some models want to have a space free of photographers opinions.   Will that encourage models to post or be more active, I don't know.   I guess its worth a shot.

Revenge Photography wrote:

I can understand that, certain very vocal models to tend to look down on TF models in the model forum. I've seen models bash models nearly as much as photographers over there. I've also seen some of those vocal models attack photographers there for no apparent reason other disregarding what they have to say for what I can only conclude is gender bias.

I guess most photographers are male and we all know that males are always wrong,  so kick out the photographers and that forum will be all sunshine, unicorns and rainbows.

Exactly. Let them have their own sunshine, unicorn and rainbows without me. As the unkind barbs to those who disagree, (as well as reporting all disenters as personal attacks,) are cam'd. Good riddance for the moment and I am so glad that my photography profile was approved recently.

Phew.

Heck, maybe my camera leanings are whey those models disliked me anyways, well... I am sure they wouldn't want to work for me anyways.

Jen

Tony Lawrence wrote:
My feeling is if it makes some models feel better to be protected from mean photographers then let them have a special place.   Does segregation ever actually work?   Isn't the ideal to try and build and maintain a better community?  I've been accused by a member of hating MM models but the reality in my view is there is lot of mistrust and anger toward photographers.   One well known member has made it quite clear she has never paid a photographer nor would she and that other models shouldn't either.   Instead of photographers challenging that bs and other crap they meekly go along or say how they pay all their models.   Nothing wrong with that but don't they feel their work has worth as well.   Sometimes the price of free speech or expression will be people who are loud and in some cases argumentative. (me)   I want all voices heard.   Even that person I referenced and in any thread or forum they choose to post.

However it appears that some models want to have a space free of photographers opinions.   Will that encourage models to post or be more active, I don't know.   I guess its worth a shot.

I know Tony.
Bully for them, bugger for me though but I'm grateful I've had my time on here as a model to establish the base of a network I was hoping for. Albeit as a despised by the paid models, trade only model. Matter of fact I shot with someone a week ago whose casting I answered and he later replied offering me a model rate and I took him up on it while I was in Burbank California. Do I feel like I go the better bargain? YES!!

Jen

Marin Photography NYC wrote:
There are many models that don't participate, not because of us meanies, but more so because they aren't serious about modeling. Some are just here to make some quick cash and many are delusional and it doesn't matter what you say to them. They will keep on doing what they do...I just try my best not to work with any of them. LOL I have no problem staying out of their forum, I will read it and see who to avoid. That's the one good thing about it.

I know, right? Gosh, apparently there has been a whole lot of bashing or personal attacks perceived by them that I hadn't realized! Yet, I sure felt some sting though. ? Go figure, maybe I am too photographer leaning though.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
It's like having a debate, inviting representatives from both sides of an issue, but only letting one side actually take the stage and speak.

It makes sense if your goal is to promote a biased, one-sided perspective.

But the moderator of this debate gets to add his opinions throughout!

Tim Griffiths wrote:
harvesting the wisdom.

Wisdom on MM ! where ?

Laura Bello wrote:
Here's what I feel would work better:  If the mods could ban those that are aggressive or bulling from any particular forum maybe for a short period of time like a month or something.  The reason that a lot of photographers comment on model forum posts is because they're often topics that are broader where they can have some insight or relative opinion, while a lot of times photography posts can be more technical or specific and just something a model can't contribute too.  For example I pretty much never comment on styling or makeup cause I have nothing pertinent to add, I know nothing about it.  I honestly can't say I've been around long enough to see models being bullied in their forums but I do agree it's not helpful and probably causes people to avoid posting.

If you restrict the model forum you're sure as hell better plan on restricting every other forum as well to keep things fair.  I honestly don't care who comments on what as long as their giving helpful information or furthering the discussion.  Restricting this and that is just going to be another things that drives this site into the ground, which would suck cause I pretty much only come here for the forums.

Well since it appears I can't post in that thread either I will try here. This addresses generally though I've tacked it onto Laura's as I agree generally.

I have had a number of photographers bombarding me on this,issue so I assume some may want to hear my answer and I'm having to repeat myself in pms.

So if you will forgive me for being so bold as to post in a photographer only thread.

Firstly, can I assure everyone that I have NO clout whatever with mods or admin. So why people are pm ing me as though I have I dont know.

I am NOT in favour of making the forum models only except as a last resort. Clearly many models ARE not comfortable posting and there is a feeling something needs to be done. I think Laura has good points here.


I will endeavour to explain why.

Models host ports here as part of their branding. We use them to apply for castings and network.
We are NOT protected by anonymity. Everyone can see who we are.

Taking part on a forum thread and then her opinion being bashed abusively or through broadside (eg saying promo models aren't real models isnt going to endear a model who is one to post especially when everyone can see who she is, and a third party , (say a Motorcycle company for whom she has just done some shoots and grid work),  Googles her . So brand compromised. Also, you have photographers clearly saying they don't think she is a real model. Again bad for our brand. Photographers often don't care because they are often anonymous or are not professional (at least in genre where model is eg Alt, Life modelling) or simply arent reliant on their poets here for work. Photographers don't usually apply for work on and off site with their MM account linked, models do.

Insults to models which are frequent, are often not acted on. This is noted by other models and they think "oh my god I'd be mortified if someone said that to me" and so that makes them reluctant to post too. It can severely affect confidence to have validity as a model questioned especially when all the world can see who we are.



I favour extra model moderators for that forum as they understand this and are less inclined to let snide comments and personal attack go unaddressed. As Laura says barring aggressive and rude photographers,for up to a month from commenting in model forum would be a good deterrent.


Thank you and apologies for interrupting.
I would certainly honour a desire to keep a photographera forum photographer only, and I would not attempt to open a photographer account despite being published, to undermine such desire.