Kate Eaton wrote:
Perhaps the Canadian market is different than what you are used to dealing with, Saadiq. Fair enough. I was on the Ford main board and am currently on the main board of another major agency. These jobs involve castings that are closed to all models not selected by the client from the big ("legit") agencies in the city and occur on average of maybe twice per year. They are by no means my (or any of my peer's) "bread and butter" clients (that would be catalogue work, in my market anyhow) but, frankly, $50/hour or more is a welcome gig when you have a mortgage to pay.

I realize that all promo work is *not* like this; outside of work obtained through major agencies, it can be low paying and, in my opinion, much more undesirable in terms of working conditions and job description. But *my experience* of promo work booked through *my agencies* has been positive and profitable.

(FYI - I think you mean "moot", not "mute")

True indeed... my typing/spelling mistake Oops. Correction made thx

I understand your point regarding "paying a mortgage" hence why I said: that there are exceptions because life/business isn't absolute.

However, here in NYC "showroom/fit modeling gigs" are considered low end/bread and butter work for the all the REAL note-worthy major agencies.  And based on my knowledge such gigs start @ $175 per hour with a 3 hour and 3 day minimum booking per model. 

Let's do the math.. $175 x3 = $525 x3 = $1,575 - agency fee 20% = $1,261 consistently in the models pocket give or take.  Keep in mind that the model(s) is working such gigs within the genre of fashion/commercial and working with other industry professionals (mua, stylist, designers and or buyers)

In Miami, Chicago and LA the bread a butter work via note-worth agencies is catalogue and some trunk shows.  The entry pay for catalogue varies but exceeds the "showroom/fit modeling" pay in NYC.

I only bring up these undeniable low end facts to outline just how insignificant "promo modeling" is to the REAL WORLD of major market modeling!

edit: I addition to my above statements... I suspect that "promo modeling gigs" fall somewhere in the inconsistent and unreliable low end cracks of the major market industry. (with a few exceptions of course)

CHAD ALAN wrote:
I think you're confusing "opinion" with coming to the OP's defense. I don't doubt what you say. You are much more knowledgable that I.

1. Why do you feel it's your job to debunk whatever a model is interested in? 2. I guess my point is, this wasn't a thread about "Promo, is it good or bad?.

3. Your experience in this area is good and valid, but models will soon find out for themselves if it's a feasible avenue for them right? For some it might be, and this thread would have been valuable to them.

No confusion on my part Chad... I simply call it as I see it.  In regards to your questions: 

1. My job is to capture images via the use photography... enough said!  But, based on the premiss of your question: It's not debunking... as I've already stated: "the truth isn't complicated".  Plus, I'm not a fan of fluff, attaboys and or misinformation of any type because it adds unnecessary bullshit to what's already clear MAYHEM via these forums.
2. I'm unable to comprehend your point/question
3. Real world economics will be the overall deal breaker... not the opinionated research of some scientist/part time promo model!

Saadiq Photography wrote:

Rick, that seems to be the problem... She's well known HERE in this MM playground!  Not to take anything away Kate's achievements, industry experience and or industry knowledge.  But, here in NYC... MM popularity is a moot point among industry professionals!

Also, I must add that "subjective" opinions are just that... SUBJECTIVE.  I didn't say that the OP's views where false nor did I say Kate's personal "promo modeling experience" was a lie.  I just don't agree with the wide optimistic, one sided, opinionated and subjective brush that the OP chose used to paint this thread.

I even went on to say that; I'm sure a few aspiring models may find this thread interesting but MOST models will find it SUBJECTIVE at best! Which seems to be the case based on the number of white knight photographer coming the OP's defense. 

You see... the TRUTH isn't complicated.  Some models will say that "promo modeling" is a good thing and others may disagree based on their own personal experiences.

But, no one can "factually" say that promo modeling is 100% yay or nay.  Hence my "subjective" remarks.

I'll end with this... I've worked with EVERY and ALL note-worth REAL modeling agencies here in NYC as well in ALL major US markets and I have yet to personally see and or hear of ANY of them booking promo gigs for their listed models! Regardless of Kate's personal agency experience.

So, if any of you find MY statements regarding this topic in error prove it otherwise "shut the fuck up" and move on!  After all this is the right place for MAYHEM

By here, I mean the entire country of Canada...not MM

Saadiq Photography wrote:

True indeed... my typing/spelling mistake Oops. Correction made thx

I understand your point regarding "paying a mortgage" hence why I said: that there are exceptions because life/business isn't absolute.

However, here in NYC "showroom/fit modeling gigs" are considered low end/bread and butter work for the all the REAL note-worthy major agencies.  And based on my knowledge such gigs start @ $175 per hour with a 3 hour and 3 day minimum booking per model. 

Let's do the math.. $175 x3 = $525 x3 = $1,575 - agency fee 20% = $1,261 consistently in the models pocket give or take.  Keep in mind that the model(s) is working such gigs within the genre of fashion/commercial and working with other industry professionals (mua, stylist, designers and or buyers)

In Miami, Chicago and LA the bread a butter work via note-worth agencies is catalog and some trunk shows.  The entry pay for catalog varies but exceeds the "showroom/fit modeling" pay in NYC.

I only bring up these undeniable low end facts to outline just how insignificant "promo modeling" is to the REAL WORLD of major market modeling!

edit: I addition to my above statements... I suspect that "promo modeling gigs" fall somewhere in the inconsistent and unreliable low end cracks of the major market industry. (with a few exceptions of course)

That's awesome.
I think you're missing the entire point of this thread, but carry on...

Kelleth wrote:

I have had similar positive promo experiences with large agencies in multiple markets. Every agency model I've ever met has had experience doing these "promos" though the ones booked through agencies aren't typically referred to as 'promos' (but that's essentially what they are). I did one recently where myself and several models showed up for $400 for a few hours to a photographer rep agency party and handed out lollipops in matching outfits. Another time, it's showing up to a flagship store event wearing the store's clothing and talking about how great they are and about the store's promotions. Or promos for MAC where you get some crazy makeup done to you and you hang out in a mall drawing customers into the store. They all pay reasonably well and are incredibly easy work. I did another "promo" for a hair dye company where myself and other agency models greeted people at a party and showed off the company's products and handed out coupons for $1200 (for 4 hours).

I have also done promo work for non agency companies and individuals. The pay is not nearly as good and the working conditions are sometimes poorer. But, honestly, the work itself was not really ever any different. To those that think that all promo work is not worthwhile is silly. Some is, and some isn't. In my experience though, 100% of promo stuff I've done through agencies has been a great experience and has paid decently. But even the non agency stuff I've done has been fairly positive experiences and still pays far better per hour than the average non modelling job ever would.

+1 spot on.

Saadiq Photography wrote:

Kate to quite honest and direct... YES, I'm suggesting that you may have signed with the wrong agency!  Because, as a "whole" booking such promo gigs doesn't require an agency not alone a note-worthy agency. (obviously there are exceptions because life/business isn't absolute) 

Nevertheless, I'm not discrediting promo models nor am I bashing promo work... rather I don't agree with the wide optimistic and one sided opinionated/subjective brush the OP chose to paint this thread with. 

In addition there is NOTHING in the OP's posting that's eye opening or new.  In fact, she uses "old" examples in hopes of making a worthless new point. (promo modeling isn't new)  Sure, some aspiring models will find this thread interesting but most will see it as "subjective" news at best.

As I understand it the definition of promo gigs includes working special events at retail stores.  This might be handing out samples, modelling the stores products or just interacting with customers.  From what I understand from your posts no reputable agency would allow one of their models to do such a thing.

Somebody should inform Karlie Kloss's agency:
http://vsallaccess.victoriassecret.com/ … tter-chat/

But what do I know?

Azimuth Arts wrote:
As I understand it the definition of promo gigs includes working special events at retail stores.  This might be handing out samples, modelling the stores products or just interacting with customers.  From what I understand from your posts no reputable agency would allow one of their models to do such a thing.

Somebody should inform Karlie Kloss's agency:
http://vsallaccess.victoriassecret.com/ … tter-chat/

But what do I know?

It's rather stupid for anyone to insinuate that Karlie Kloss (one of the industry's top and highest paid fashion/runway models) is also a "promo model" via the management of this industries most iconic, successful and prestigious modeling agency... IMG.    

Not only is such accusation an example of pure industry stupidity... I'd say it's yet another attempt to add more misinformation into this MM playground!  So, here's the real TRUTH of the matter... (which isn't complicated)

Karlie Kloss is contractually bound to "Victoria Secrets" as an angel aka face of such company's brand.  She's no different than other top/high end models with product brand contracts aka face of brand contracts.  And I'm sure the terms of such prestigious contract(s) pays millions to those said models. (most top models with such contract(s) are viewed as the industry's money girls... key word is MONEY)

Unlike the average inconsistent (twice a year in some cases) low end "promo gig" pay already pointed out via this thread.  However, I do understand that some aspiring models may find "promo gigs" appealing and a means for a few extra bucks.... regardless.

But, your implication regarding "promo gig vs victoria secret contract" comparison or IMG models booking "promo gigs" is seriously flawed!!

edit: just to further correct you... I didn't say anything regarding a note-worthy agency "not allowing" their listed models to work a promo gig.  Look, contrary to the understanding of most via these forums... I understand that the model is the boss/employer in such agency/management agreement and not the other way around.  So, the model has the final say!

Saadiq Photography wrote:
It's rather stupid for anyone to insinuate that Karlie Kloss (one of the industry's top and highest paid fashion/runway models) is also a "promo model" via the management of this industries most iconic, successful and prestigious modeling agency... IMG.    

Not only is such accusation an example of pure industry stupidity... I'd say it's yet another attempt to add more misinformation into this MM playground!  So, here's the real TRUTH of the matter... (which isn't complicated)

Karlie Kloss is contractually bound to "Victoria Secrets" as an angel aka face of such company's brand.  She's no different than other top/high end models with product brand contracts aka face of brand contracts.  And I'm sure the terms of such prestigious contract(s) pays millions to those said models. (most top models with such contract(s) are viewed as the industry's money girls... key word is MONEY)

Unlike the average inconsistent (twice a year in some cases) low end "promo gig" pay already pointed out via this thread.  However, I do understand that some aspiring models may find "promo gigs" appealing and a means for a few extra bucks.... regardless.

But, your implication regarding "promo gig vs victoria secret contract" comparison or IMG models booking "promo gigs" is seriously flawed!!

edit: just to further correct you... I didn't say anything regarding a note-worthy agency "not allowing" their listed models to work a promo gig.  Look, contrary to the understanding of most via these forums... I understand that the model is the boss/employer in such agency/management agreement and not the other way around.  So, the model has the final say!

You are taking this too seriously. The point is that the term promo gig can mean all sorts of things.  It can be anything from wearing a skimpy bikini at the Bakersfield boat show to working the opening of a prestigious brands flagship store in London, New York or Dubai.  Maybe IMG will only send out their models to such an event if they already have 6 or 7 figure contracts with that brand.  I don't doubt that IMG would not be part of booking the Bakersfield boat show.  But if a brand that books their models for print and tv campaigns needed models for a special event would they refuse outright?

Also, to be clear, most models cant and won't get contracts with IMG and the other top tier agencies.  There are plenty of reputable agencies that operate at a different level and their models can make quite reasonable money on various types of work.  If that includes some types of promo work what is the harm?  If a model does meet and greet at a charity function, or the media launch party for the new Volkswagen is she now automatically excluded from some other work?  Does Burberry or Chanel actually care when selecting who walks in the next fashion week or appears in their fall ads in Vogue?  I doubt it.

The target of the OP is clearly models who rely on some of their income from internet bookings through sites like this one. I don't think she was suggesting Karlie and Miranda augment their income doing promo.  She was suggesting it for models who make $50-$100 an hour for a few hours a day a few times a month booking shoots on MM.  And if the model can get promo work through an agency that can vet the employer and make sure they get paid for it then all the better.

And I am fully aware that the agency works for the model.  But I also understand that agencies have and will drop models as clients if the models take work outside their recommendations.

There is not one "industry" represented on this site.  There are vast differences in how things work based on genre and geography.  What you know about major agency models in major markets may well be true, but may not hold in smaller niche markets or for models who work outside of mainstream fashion.

Just my $0.02

Saadiq Photography wrote:
I understand that the model is the boss/employer in such agency/management agreement and not the other way around.  So, the model has the final say! [/i]

Oooh thanks for that most sensible thing you've said all thread.


Just landed from Copenhagen. You know. Doing international science and modelling stuff. No promo. So haven't had time to adress this; but be sure I shall.

Though in this case, while you have insinuated I'm just a promo model, I wish it were true. Because in THIS thread it's the only experience that matters. Darn I wish I'd have taken the other promo gigs but yes the fit money got the better of me.
Thanks very much to the promo girls who have responded thus far. It's not lost on people out of the 32 emails I've had on this topic. As has been pointed out, without me having to intervene, this is just the kind of thing  that a tiny minority if photographers are bullying models about. What promo model who isn't as brave as a lion going to contribute now?


Thanks for the lecture on fit modelling though; I am sue a few around here will have found you lecturing me on that ironic to say the least. That irony hasn't been lost on folk either. Nor has the fact that you don't know Kate yet she's virtually a household name in the UK aswell as Canada.
So tell me...while it seems Kate is known thanks to the power of tv and blogging and general model awesomeness and work, so I never ever had to google her, and she has done promo gigs so her evidence is relevant, what's the score with you? I guess I should have heard of you but haven't. Now while I acknowledge that you have some lovely pictures and agency work, forgive me....but what is your ACTUAL experience of promo modelling because in this thread it's the only authority and testimony that has been asked for? Despite your impressive credits I couldn't see any experience of promo modelling but may be wrong.


You may want to do some research on IMG and Wilhelmina (yes I had to google you I'm afraid...quite revealing) if you think promo isn't important. Not that IMG have a promo div, but IMG International the parent company certainly hire promo models/companies at events. So they think it important obviously. And Wilhelmina certainly have an affiliate company who do promo
http://www.prlog.org/10606429-wilhelmin … ation.html
http://www.wilhelmina.com/affiliates.aspx?c=mi&nav=45




Back tomorrow

I will help you burn your straw man too.   you've called people stupid, inferred people are lying, and attacked me personally and based your argument on something I never said. I pointed out at the start some promo is just handing out samples of potato chips for fairly low pay (not that I've done it but have respect for those who have ) and never said Fashion agencies actively book promo work. As for an agenda....I don't have one. If I did I'd say. I've no connection with any promo agency btw.

I simply think that promotional modelling deserved a thread. It is an option for models here and if you actually looked at the ports I cited you will see many high calibre models who do it including models from agencies.

So quit with the ad hominem if your argument is good resort to it immediately scuppers it. It's called a fallacy.

So thank you for the contribution. I think we get what your opinion is now. This thread is actually for models experiences and promo agencies etc. Photographers welcome but not to slate the genre , derail it, or rubbish models that do it thanks.

Kelleth wrote:

I have had similar positive promo experiences with large agencies in multiple markets. Every agency model I've ever met has had experience doing these "promos" though the ones booked through agencies aren't typically referred to as 'promos' (but that's essentially what they are). I did one recently where myself and several models showed up for $400 for a few hours to a photographer rep agency party and handed out lollipops in matching outfits. Another time, it's showing up to a flagship store event wearing the store's clothing and talking about how great they are and about the store's promotions. Or promos for MAC where you get some crazy makeup done to you and you hang out in a mall drawing customers into the store. They all pay reasonably well and are incredibly easy work. I did another "promo" for a hair dye company where myself and other agency models greeted people at a party and showed off the company's products and handed out coupons for $1200 (for 4 hours).

I have also done promo work for non agency companies and individuals. The pay is not nearly as good and the working conditions are sometimes poorer. But, honestly, the work itself was not really ever any different. To those that think that all promo work is not worthwhile is silly. Some is, and some isn't. In my experience though, 100% of promo stuff I've done through agencies has been a great experience and has paid decently. But even the non agency stuff I've done has been fairly positive experiences and still pays far better per hour than the average non modelling job ever would.

Thank you Kelleth. Wonderful to hear from another high calibre model with their actual experience!

V Laroche wrote:
In my experience the different agencies are really local. None of those agencies you mentioned do any work in my area. Networking has to be done on a local level for most promo models.
Promotions is a pretty good job; the pay is good and schedule is flexible, but it is unreliable and is seasonal in many areas.

Don't know what these are like? http://m.neworleansconventioncentermodels.com/
http://www.paperdollpromotions.com/

Also a number of national cover agencies appear to canvas New Orleans. Again I don't know what these are like, but if signing with a nationwide agency there is the possibility of work options in other areas. Certainly works that way in the UK.

http://theparadymgroup.com/cities/new-orleans
http://www.promomodels.com/neworleans-louisiana.php
http://www.impactmta.com/


http://www.heymantalent.com/heyman-tale … h-central/

That latter one has fit castings in Columbus Ohio on atm so may be worth people in various areas following. They seem to represent all kinds of models inc fashion/commercial too.

LA StarShooter wrote:
Well done, Eliza. A good and informative thread. I know of women who have made good money in promotional modelling, particularly at car shows. I think it's good of you to point to opportunities for models. I don't know why Saadiq was so concerned.

Thanks. I hope we can get some more models to come forward too.


I don't know either especially when one of the agencies which showcase his work also have a promo affiliate:  Wilhelmina .

Promotional modelling isn't all good. I said in the beginning not so good flyering or handing out potato chip samples. But if it helps pays the bills I'd do it.

There are also some dodgy promo agencies recruiting of course. But you get that with any kind of modelling you have to beware scams. I mentioned early on for eg that the IPL girls because the money is good you have agents preying on eastern European girls and taking the lions share of the modelling gigs.

As for objectification, which one photographer mentioned early on in.the thread. Well I think that moot coming from MM because certainly many photographers here do that. Photographic modelling of any kind can objectify. Even in art galleries. Thinking here of Nic Dunlops critical of the US gallery exhibition of images of the Khmer rouge victims taken by Nhem Ein the KR photographer.
"I look in their eyes and see nothing" is the terrifying end to the book for photography. So if we are going to get philosophical about objectification to try to attack promotion modelling I think that's a bit farcical and in some ways ay least one sees a little of the person in much promo whereas unless there's text and context photography can objectify of it's nature. But all models become objects and as long as it's not degrading I'm cool with it. I'd be happy to do a beer pin up! And if I sat astride a Harley I wouldn't have to act much to feel hot ha ha. So charges of objectification have to stay rooted in reality I think.


But I don't wish to paint a garden of roses. I just wish to legitimize it as an option because paying work is difficult to get solely relying on photography even for top agency models.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ … ogist.html

I think we aren't all industry standard for fashion either but there are realistic options where it possible to earn even if not tall and promo is one of them. The sneering here at non fashion agency models by a small minority does not encourage models to take part here. So I think it's nice for them to see that a lot of really amazing agency models sometime do promo. It's a great option at the higher end for models with performing skills or an education too. PR is a route this work can lead to for the latter. The other good plus is that promo companies and those clients give references too. References are hugely important. I have done two decent promo gigs early on. That and my fit job and my life modelling are on my professional cv. My photographic modelling hasn't much bearing on say applying for a job at a big media company doing PR but the former has. If I don't get a post doc (though it's looking very promising) something like that is an option for me and the promo important to my references/CV. My tears are no good for that.


So yes I don't know why some photographers are so sneering about promo. I don't understand the motivation to attack it. Most of us are just wanting to earn a little money, to help with uni fees , or a modest to reasonable living by modelling - we aren't after being Vogue cover girls. So I think the journeymen pro models here especially have a hard time. Called mercenary, not real models,etc.
I also think it worth, for photographers who think real models don't do promo, to look at the ports listed in my Op post.

Thanks again

Azimuth Arts wrote:

You are taking this too seriously. The point is that the term promo gig can mean all sorts of things.  It can be anything from wearing a skimpy bikini at the Bakersfield boat show to working the opening of a prestigious brands flagship store in London, New York or Dubai.  Maybe IMG will only send out their models to such an event if they already have 6 or 7 figure contracts with that brand.  I don't doubt that IMG would not be part of booking the Bakersfield boat show.  But if a brand that books their models for print and tv campaigns needed models for a special event would they refuse outright?

Also, to be clear, most models cant and won't get contracts with IMG and the other top tier agencies.  There are plenty of reputable agencies that operate at a different level and their models can make quite reasonable money on various types of work.  If that includes some types of promo work what is the harm?  If a model does meet and greet at a charity function, or the media launch party for the new Volkswagen is she now automatically excluded from some other work?  Does Burberry or Chanel actually care when selecting who walks in the next fashion week or appears in their fall ads in Vogue?  I doubt it.

The target of the OP is clearly models who rely on some of their income from internet bookings through sites like this one. I don't think she was suggesting Karlie and Miranda augment their income doing promo.  She was suggesting it for models who make $50-$100 an hour for a few hours a day a few times a month booking shoots on MM.  And if the model can get promo work through an agency that can vet the employer and make sure they get paid for it then all the better.

And I am fully aware that the agency works for the model.  But I also understand that agencies have and will drop models as clients if the models take work outside their recommendations.

There is not one "industry" represented on this site.  There are vast differences in how things work based on genre and geography.  What you know about major agency models in major markets may well be true, but may not hold in smaller niche markets or for models who work outside of mainstream fashion.

Just my $0.02

Perfectly expressed thank you