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TFP specifics
Hey guys, I'm brand new to MM and fairly new to modelling itself so I'm hoping for some advice on a few things regarding TFP. When I am doing paid work, I obviously understand that I have been commissioned to carry out someone else's vision, and have little or no rights to the photos produced. TFP, however, seems to be a bit of a grey area, and I've recently run into some tough spots. Sometimes it feels like the models get the short end of the stick when it comes to TFP, and I'd just love to know the common procedure, and any advice established models may have for me. 1) What are the models rights to photos regarding TFP- I have previously been asked to sign a model release before tfp shoots (standard) but sometimes the model release states how many images I will receive from the shoot. Is this common? Allowed? 2) As TFP is meant to benefit BOTH portfolios, am i allowed to request which images I would like from the shoot? I have had many instances of photographers favouring photos I personally find unflattering of myself and would never use in my portfolio. All I mean by this is, where a photog may choose the photo with the best lighting setup, etc. there may have been a photo of a really dramatic pose that I feel would go well in my port to highlight my skills 3) I recently had a shoot where the photog photoshopped and airbrushed my face to the point that I was barely recognizable. In this instance, am I allowed to request unedited or raw images? 4) Immediately after a shoot, when looking through the images, am I allowed to ask for certain ones to be deleted? Not because they are ugly or I don't like them, but there have been times when a certain element of clothing was see-through in photographs, etc. and I don't feel comfortable associating myself with certain types of nudity. Though I may ask nicely, it feels as though the photographer's model release form that I already signed would allow them to use this picture anyway if they chose to. 5) A less important question- but I'd love to hear different model's takes on this one. What do you do when a photog posts a picture of you to their site/page/etc. that is extremely unflattering? Especially when you do a TFP shoot with no MUA, hairstylist, or any third party telling you when to take 5 for some much needed touching up. Each creative involved in the photoshoot process will obviously prefer different images depending on their craft, but we've all heard the saying "you're only as good as your worst picture". So, models what do you do when a picture is posted that makes you hope no one you know catches a glimpse (haha)? Aug 26 14 06:20 am Link Orginal deleted - as I was speaking to U.S. copyright and usage, no Australia. The big thing you should do it talk to the photographer about these things prior to agreeing to shoot. TF simply means you receive images. Anything beyond that up is up to negotiation. There is no standard as to how many images, when you will receive them. Most photographers will not give models RAW images. Talk to the photographer in question about release issues, usage rights, etc. prior to the shoot. Aug 26 14 06:45 am Link Thanks for the reply! Given the responses Ive gotten from the very nice people of MM I gather that I will need to be more assertive with my "demands" prior to shooting, something I'm always hesitant with as I don't want to seem unreasonable or hard to work with. Aug 26 14 06:59 am Link Cannot comment on (1) but for everything else TFP related chalk whatever has happened so far down to experience but it looks like you've learnt what matters, so before you consider your next TFP session, ask the photographer... 1. Who gets to choose the images? 2. Is the amount of photoshopping representative of the photographer's portfolio - in which case choose a photographer whose end product matches your requirements. You can ask about delivery of the raw files for editing, some will, some won't. I would not for example, in case you produce something which isn't representative of my work but which still carries my copyright in the metadata. 3. Can I request deletions for images that make me uncomfortable. I allow this without hesitation but I have no idea what other photographers do. Ask. If I process an image which might be borderline, I send the file to the model first to make sure they're OK with it. I'm not overly fussed one way or another but I like to retain a good relationship with the people I work with so I choose this particular path. There may be other (let's not get into escorts vs drivers vs big girl pants), so just compile a list of what's important to you and when you see a TFP casting that you think you'd like to do, ask your questions. I have a page set-up where I direct models to (http://www.bbimagery.com/tfpwithbb/) which answers a majority of questions. It's by no means exhaustive, but I like to be as clear as possible what my expectations are so that the model walks in knowing exactly what she/he are getting themselves into, what they can expect from the session etc. At the end of the day, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into before you agree to the session, that way neither you nor the photographer should be disappointed, surprised or otherwise by the end result. Cheers, Brhum Aug 26 14 07:17 am Link Thank you for your detailed reply! I completely agree with you in having some "cookie cutter" questions ready to go for when a photog approaches me, and perhaps I'll even take a page out of your book and add a FAQ section to my website when it is finished. Lesson learned- must to get more assertive with my demands while still allowing all creatives involved to have sufficient wiggle room! hahah Noticed you're also from Burlington- very close to Mississauga where I grew up! Small world Aug 26 14 07:23 am Link 1) What did you negotiate in advance? 2) What did you negotiate in advance? 3) What did you negotiate in advance? 4) What did you negotiate in advance? 5) What did you negotiate in advance? Yes, it's repetitive.  All of these things are items you can (and should!) negotiate in advance with the photographer. The goal of TFP is to benefit both parties, but it's up to the parties to determine what "benefit" means. If you don't agree on the items that are important to you, the photographer (or model, looking at it from the opposite perspective) is likely to just do "what they usually do", which may not suit your needs.Aug 26 14 07:42 am Link Aug 26 14 07:42 am Link Ken Warren- I'm starting to get the picture ha. Like I said, never wanted to seem too demanding, but it seems with some experience also comes some demands! Thanks  Will do Mortonovich. Only posted on here for a more personal perspective coming from living breathing models and photogs. Thanks for the link Aug 26 14 07:47 am Link Taylor Jeffers wrote: I prefer the model to set out exactly what they want from the shoot..... then its very easy to decide whether to do it or not. I dont think you would appear unreasonable setting out your expectations.... everyone has them, better to have them met than stew about it afterwards Aug 26 14 07:48 am Link Abbitt Photography wrote: As has been stated, everything should be open to negotiation. Taylor Jeffers wrote: "Demanding" is not a good negotiating technique IMHO. You will find photographers who are willing to accomodate you if you accomodate them. OTOH there will be photographers with demands of their own and you will probably not work with them. Taylor Jeffers wrote: I suspect that his/her portfolio reflected this photoshop style. Taylor Jeffers wrote: a) I would not delete these from my hard drive but I would certainly not post them online. I expect to have a really good understanding of your limits before we shoot. If you feel that this might be a problem, you should ask to see a copy of the model release at the preliminary stages of negotiation. Aug 26 14 07:58 am Link Taylor Jeffers wrote: There's nothing wrong with asking for what you need. Aug 26 14 08:02 am Link Taylor Jeffers wrote: Well then, here's my take on things . . .. if you have to start waving around pieces of paper as to what is agreed upon, then the photos are going to SUCK!!!!!! Aug 26 14 08:08 am Link Brhum wrote: I clicked on your link and thought it was great! Aug 26 14 08:14 am Link You're welcome to take whatever you need and use it however you want. Aug 26 14 08:18 am Link When doing TFP sessions with models, I make it clear to them that they will get all of the shots taken. They can then choose which ones they like the most from which I will edit 15 - 20 for them. The session has to benefit both parties. It actually doesn't matter to me whether I like a photo that I have taken as such. The model has to like that photo first because it's a shot of them, only captured by me. Nonetheless, please just be a little assertive (not aggressive) and simply clear everything up before hand so there are no misunderstandings afterwards. I wish you luck moving forwards and if you re ever in Glasgow, drop me a bell. Cheers Aug 26 14 08:19 am Link Mark Salo I did not pose in see through clothing. In keeping with the creative flow of the shoot, we decided to do some poses wrapped in scarves attached to the ceiling (great concept) but the photog ended up liking many shots where the scarf itself was not wrapped enough times and therefore showed a little more than I would normally be willing to. And as for the photoshopping, previous work did not have editing to this extent (as far as my untrained eyes could tell), but in hindsight it would seem the photog edits a certain makeup look (in excess) on many of their models. Will look out in the future Thanks for the reply! Aug 26 14 08:21 am Link St Nabi thank you! Glasgow is beautiful, if I'm ever back there hopefully we can collab Aug 26 14 08:23 am Link Mortonovich I agree with you on "going with the flow", it's just a bit harder in this business for a young girl to not get 'taken advantage of' in some way, so I'm trying to cover all my bases before diving in head first. I hope to be able to establish my boundaries while still being able to make some beautiful music, as you've put it. I appreciate all your advice Aug 26 14 08:29 am Link Taylor Jeffers wrote: Talk to other models and MUAs in your area. Get involved in the (modeling/photography/fashion) community. Find who is cool and who sucks. Aug 26 14 08:56 am Link there are no rules. we all do it a little differently. check with your photographer during the shoot negotiation if you have requirements/concerns. of course at some point the photographer could decide that the requirements/concerns are too much for a TF shoot (vs. one where you are paying the photographer). i've rarely had a model ask about what she'll get prior to the shoot. sometimes they ask during the shoot but usually they just go with the flow. for my part i give the model a full gallery and let her choose her favorites for retouching. but some photographers think that's crazy. at the beginning i used a release but at some point i stopped worry about that on TF shoots. at best the images are on mayhem/facebook for a few months and then it's usually on to something else. the sad thing is when the model doesn't get any images at all. choose your photographers well. Aug 26 14 09:12 am Link Just trying to help. The way I work is we agree on a concept for a shoot, and a few back up ideas/outfits in case we have extra time, it rains, etc. I dont go over all the pics with the model. Why would I want anyone seeing bad work? I select 35 to 50 of the better shots, and then the model can pick from those the ones she wants edited and retouched for her portfolio. And I usually explain it will be at least 2 weeks before I can get edited images out, as paid work takes priority and its wedding season right now. Aug 26 14 09:23 am Link Taylor: 1) You only get the rights you negotiate up front. By default, the photographer owns and controls use of the photos. The model release is confirmation that you give permission to the photographer to use and publish the photos per the terms. In general, its reasonable to have the model have full permission to use the photos in any portfolio, model or agency websites, or general promotion of their career. The photographer generally negotiates any other use or publication of those images and gives you a portion of the income. 2) TFP Terms are unique to each shoot and photographer, so negotiate all details of a TFP shoot beforehand. You should know when the proofs will be available, who picks photos to be edited and how many, how long editing will take, what size and watermarks will be on the final images, and what rights will you get to use in your portfolio or elsewhere. This is essential to confirming that the results will be valuable to you. Most good photographers will have standard policies for most trade shoots and you need to be clear and agree on everything. 3) Unedited image policies vary by photographer. Your research into deciding to work with that photographer needs to include their retouching skills. 4) Asking for unfaltering or revealing images to be deleted is not the right of the subject. Work with clients and photographers you trust. 5) Every model needs to accept that the client or photographer will decide what photos are best for their use. You will not always like the final edited images and that its just part of being a professional. You need to understand that getting paid for modeling does not include your creative opinion. For a trade shoot, you should clarify with the photographer that you need to be able to pick some images for yourself to make sure it is a valuable trade to you. Part of every creative project is the risk that some will be disappointing but also the surprise when some are much better. You will develop your instincts with support and guidance from others to help you select the best creative partners and projects that enhance your value and standards. Good Luck!!! Aug 26 14 09:25 am Link If you have lots of demands and aren't getting the quality you want, maybe, just maybe, you should hire a professional and pay them. That way you can dictate what you want. Aug 26 14 10:50 am Link Ontherocks, random image, and loki studio thank you for your input! All great advice, and very much appreciated. Filles de Pin-up, if you had read the post you would see that I do not have lots of demands, but rather questions about the way TFP works and how to handle certain scenarios. Nothing in my post had anything to do with demands, aside from wondering if I am entitled to choose a few photos that suit me. It would seem from the responses I've gotten that I actually had too few demands before going into my previous shoots. As far as I understood it, TFP was a collaboration between both artists, hence why my post is called TFP specifics. I am well aware that I have the option to "hire a professional and pay them." Thank you. Aug 26 14 11:27 am Link Always know exactly what you are getting into. I make it a point to meet with models first where I show prints of my portfolio and discuss my shooting style, when and the style of the shoot, and what the model will receive at the end of the shoot. After a shoot, we stop at a restaurant, where I download all the photos to my computer. Because I often work with beginning models I let them go through all the photos so they can see what worked and what didn't, as a learning experience. I then let them choose about 10 shots that I will edit for them and send them via Dropbox. These are hi-rez JPEGS. My model release states that they can use these shots for self promotion only and they may not modify them except for chopping. I generally get them the edited images within 4 to 5 days but I don't promise that timetable because things happen and I might not be able to make that schedule. So far I have never been late. I would never give out all the shots either as RAW or JPEGS, the editing is what makes the pictures mine and that is part of what the model is getting by working with me. TF is a trade between model and photographer, it is not FREE. Each party contributes something and each gets something back. Yes there will some photographers who never deliver pictures or who take forever. The best thing you can do is check with other models the photographer has shot to see if he delivers what he promises. All that being said, there are NO standards. You get what you ask for, be prepared to just say NO if the terms are not to your liking. You may also get a NO from the photographer if what you ask for is against his policies or will just require too much work for a TF shoot. Best of luck. Aug 26 14 11:39 am Link |
