bencook2 wrote:
My quick definition:

Religion is a group or communities' outward relationship with God(or other).  Religion was/is created by man.

Faith is a persons relationship with God.  This relationship is co-created by the person and God.

Manifesto! http://www.imaging-services.net/Religion.htm

I view it a little differently.  I view faith as determination or lack thereof with God not necessarily given as the reason or outcome.  Religion is what equates that faith with God.

area291 wrote:

I view it a little differently.  I view faith as determination or lack thereof with God not necessarily given as the reason or outcome.  Religion is what equates that faith with God.

Though religion doesn't necessarily have to equate to God himself but merely a figurehead of a person's faith (whether it be one god, mutliple gods, or no gods at all)

Jimfoto wrote:
I'd like to know the truth about god. I'm skeptical about religion. Christians can't even agree amongst themselves,  (think of all the different denominations) not to mention the differences between Jews, Christians, Muslims, Rastafarians, Hindus, Druids, Buddhists, etc.

Is Jesus the son of god, or a false prophet? Depends on if you're a Jew or a Christian. Do you believe in the Ten Commandments? They're from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. If so, do you believe everything in the OT/Hebrew Bible? Like the part where disobedient children should be stoned to death? Is slavery sometimes OK, or never OK? How do you know which rules of the OT to obey, and which to disregard?

I want to know the truth about god, but I'm not sure that the scriptures that we have accurately represent god, and if they did, how would we know? Is it possible that god exists, but is not good?

Why your religion, and not another one? Should you choose the religion you like, or the one that you think is most likely true?

Sorry, I have no answers; only questions.

I think one of the biggest problems we have is that people look to the Bible's/Qu'ran's/Torah's words for answers. The answer is not in the words. It is in the OVERALL message. Not one verse. Not one chapert. Not one book. Not one religious text? Too many let the words get in the way of the over all message.


PS...the message is not one of a vengfull God.  Rather, a benevolent one.

Hugh  Jorgen wrote:
God was one of the Eight Drunks that wrote the Bible......

Glad i dont Drink!!

(:---------

Hj

Thanks for being non confrontational.

Jimfoto wrote:
Ben:

What is the overall message? And is it from god, or from man?

Read below.  From the Manifesto.

_______________
Can you conceive of the pain, hunger and frustration in many parts of the world?  Can you do with less so others can do with some?  Can you find time to teach so others can do for themselves?  Can you give of yourself expecting nothing in return but a better life?  Can you do these things?  If you can then I have ruined the ending for you for the Torah, the Bible, the Qur’an, the Bhagavad-Gita and basically every other religious text in the world.  What I mean is the message is the same.  Listen to yourself and read this next sentence aloud.  DON’T LOSE THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORDS.  You are not capable of understanding God’s words, another universal message from religious texts.  But, you are expected to understand and live by his message.  “If you worshiped Muhammad he is dead, if you worship God he lives on.â€?(loose translation)

Tim Baker wrote:
Religion is man/woman's term for an organized method of indoctrinating one's self and others into a particular spiritual dogma.

Faith is the hope that you are correct.

For a very large amount of the population...Tim is exactly right.

If you want to freak yourself out.  Read the current literature on Programming/Brainwashing.  Then apply that to organized religion.  Scary.

The distance you need to travel to get from Jim Jones to Pat Roberts is only a few steps. (and a few cups of Kool-aid)

bencook2 wrote:
Read below.  From the Manifesto.

_______________
Can you conceive of the pain, hunger and frustration in many parts of the world?  Can you do with less so others can do with some?  Can you find time to teach so others can do for themselves?  Can you give of yourself expecting nothing in return but a better life?  Can you do these things?  If you can then I have ruined the ending for you for the Torah, the Bible, the Qur’an, the Bhagavad-Gita and basically every other religious text in the world.  What I mean is the message is the same.  Listen to yourself and read this next sentence aloud.  DON’T LOSE THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORDS.  You are not capable of understanding God’s words, another universal message from religious texts.  But, you are expected to understand and live by his message.  “If you worshiped Muhammad he is dead, if you worship God he lives on.â€?(loose translation)

The things mentioned at the top of your quote (above) are not necessarily religious; an atheist could and should do these things as well. Compassion and love and altruism are not inherently religous. Yes, sacred texts talk of love and peace, but also preach intolerance, murder, sexism, advocacy of slavery, etc.

Which interpretations of which scriptures are correct? Which, if any, accurately represent God?  Are all religious scriptures divinely inspired? Are any entirely from the imaginations of mortal humans, with nothing to do with God? Isn't it important to know whether the scripture is from God or just made up by someone?

There are powerful Christian leaders in the U.S. right now saying that New Orleans was destroyed because of the "sin" that went on there. Is that true, or not? Many religious people condemn homosexuals as sinners. Are homosexuals sinners in God's eyes--yes or no? Most religious people I know are tolerant and kind and inclusive, but many religious leaders aren't, and the more of the Bible I read the more creeped out I get by massive violence inflicted or encouraged by God. How do we know God is benelovent?

If this sounds harsh or confrontational, please let me know. I don't mean it to be! As I said before, I want to know the truth about God, and I try to keep a very open mind. I have seen a tremendous amount of good done in the name of God, as well as bad. It seems to me that one can do good without God and religion, so why bother with the divisiveness and confusion? If God wants us to follow certain rules, I'm not sure how we're supposed to know which ones to follow and which ones not to follow.

Jimfoto wrote:
The things mentioned at the top of your quote (above) are not necessarily religous; an atheist could and should do these things as well. Compassion and love and altruism are not inherently religous. Yes, sacred texts talk of love and peace, but also preach intolerance, murder, sexism, advocacy of slavery, etc.

Which interpretations of which scriptures are correct? Which, if any, accurately represent God?  Are all religious scriptures divinely inspired? Are any entirely from the imaginations of mortal humans, with nothing to do with God?

There are powerful Christian leaders in the U.S. right now saying that New Orleans was destroyed because of the "sin" that went on there. Is that true, or not? Many religious people condemn homosexuals as sinners. Are homosexuals sinners in God's eyes--yes or no? Most religious people I know are tolerant and kind and inclusive, but many religious leaders aren't, and the more of the Bible I read the more creeped out I get by massive violence inflicted or encouraged by God. How do we know God is benelovent?

If this sounds harsh or confrontational, please let me know. I don't mean it to be! As I said before, I want to know the truth about God, and I try to keep a very open mind. I have seen a tremendous amount of good done in the name of God, as well as bad. It seems to me that one can do good without God and religion, so why bother with the divisiveness and confusion? If God wants us to follow certain rules, I'm not sure how we're supposed to know which ones to follow and which ones not to follow.

I do not believe the over all message is anything but love, tolerance and responsibility. 

Again.  You are quoting words. 

I am talking about the MUCH broader message.  The message that I get is not from the Bible.  Nor from a preacher.  Nor from my family.  Nor from God.  It is from all things.  Everything.  Including somethings seen as solely religious, like the Bible.  But I read alot of Islamic texts and Hindu texts.  I take the sum of all the parts.  That sum for me does not include: "intolerance, murder, sexism, advocacy of slavery, etc."  But, I am talking about my faith, my personal relationship with God.  This is how God speaks to ME.  Personally.

Jimfoto wrote:
Which interpretations of which scriptures are correct?

My interpretations are correct.  For me.  My interpretations are correct for me.

Jimfoto wrote:
There are powerful Christian leaders in the U.S. right now saying that New Orleans was destroyed because of the "sin" that went on there. Is that true, or not? Many religious people condemn homosexuals as sinners. Are homosexuals sinners in God's eyes--yes or no?

My God is not a vengful God.  As for Homosexuals.  I invite them to have a conversation with God.  If at the end of the day they think HOT man on man LOVIN is the way to go...  Well, more power to them.  What two people do in the privacy of their own home is NONE of my business.  I also respectfully ask that they not MAKE it my business.

Dennis Miller: "...I don't care what you fuck, just fuck it regularly..."

I do not believe the over all message is anything but love, tolerance and responsibility.

Again.  You are quoting words.

I am talking about the MUCH broader message.  The message that I get is not from the Bible.  Nor from a preacher.  Nor from my family.  Nor from God.  It is from all things.  Everything.  Including somethings seen as solely religious, like the Bible.  But I read alot of Islamic texts and Hindu texts.  I take the sum of all the parts.  That sum for me does not include: "intolerance, murder, sexism, advocacy of slavery, etc."  But, I am talking about my faith, my personal relationship with God.  This is how God speaks to ME.  Personally.

I think we're at least somewhat in agreement. You are open minded and influenced by the world; not just one sacred text or one religion. Me too. My philosophy is basically, treat others the way you would have them treat you. If I'm not mistaken, you feel the same way, or something similar? (I don't mean to put words in your mouth; please correct any misinterpretations).

The difference I guess is that I don't have a relationship with God; I don't know if God exists or doesn't exist. I hope there is a God, and that God is good, but I don't know that.

My interpretations are correct.  For me.  My interpretations are correct for me.

So is interpreting scripture purely subjective? Are there any objective truths in scripture? Did God lay down His law in the Bible for us to each interpret our own way? Was some slavery ethically acceptable 2,000 years ago, but now it is absolutely unacceptable?

I'm turning in for the night. I've enjoyed exchanging views on this huge and difficult topic, and look forward to continuing tomorrow (unless I get struck by lightning tonight).

-Jim

Jimfoto wrote:
I think we're at least somewhat in agreement. You are open minded and influenced by the world; not just one sacred text or one religion. Me too. My philosophy is basically, treat others the way you would have them treat you. If I'm not mistaken, you feel the same way, or something similar? (I don't mean to put words in your mouth; please correct any misinterpretations).

The difference I guess is that I don't have a relationship with God; I don't know if God exists or doesn't exist. I hope there is a God, and that God is good, but I don't know that.

Want to see God?  Here are some suggestions:

Go see a Shuttle Launch.

Watch Tiger Woods Swing.

Have sex with someone you love.

Finger paint with a child.

Go fishing by yourself.

Fly into New York City at night.

Look at Adrianna Lima.

Read the Constitution.

Privately, quietly, humble yourself before God.


I doubt these things will bring God knocking at your door step.  And, I am not saying that God is responsible for these things in some meta-physical way.  I am saying that through God all things are possible.  All the things on this list will give you comfort.  That comfort is a step in the right direction.

So is interpreting scripture purely subjective? Are there any objective truths in scripture? Did God lay down His law in the Bible for us to each interpret our own way?

I don't know.  But my view is that the more specific we get, ie. when we say that "God said" or "God wants" or "God will" the more we get ourselves into trouble.

If we troubled ourselves with our relationship with God and less with others relationship with God, we would most certainly live in a better world.

Don't forget the GOLD STANDARD for "God's word" is the King James Version.  VERSION  I doubt God has ever revised his message.  So there is really only one version.  I doubt King James and the Apostles where anymore inspired than anyone else.  An ounce of wrong is still wrong.  Take Chaos theory and apply that to a misplaced comma in "God's Word".  A butterfly flaps his wings in Guatamala and we get earthquakes in LA.  How about some jack ass forgets to put a comma on God's great plan for us all and we get pestulence and locusts and birdflu.  I think God has planned for our mistakes.

bencook2 wrote:

Want to see God?  Here are some suggestions:

Go see a Shuttle Launch.

Watch Tiger Woods Swing.

Have sex with someone you love.

Finger paint with a child.

Go fishing by yourself.

Fly into New York City at night.

Look at Adrianna Lima.

Read the Constitution.

Privately, quietly, humble yourself before God.


I doubt these things will bring God knocking at your door step.  And, I am not saying that God is responsible for these things in some meta-physical way.  I am saying that through God all things are possible.  All the things on this list will give you comfort.  That comfort is a step in the right direction.

Ben, assuming that these things are 'known' to us by some diety, how do you know it's not Buddha or one of the Hindu Gods who allow us to experience these wonders?  Why does it have to be a Christian God? /t

Tim Baker wrote:
Ben, assuming that these things are 'known' to us by some diety, how do you know it's not Buddha or one of the Hindu Gods who allow us to experience these wonders?  Why does it have to be a Christian God? /t

To me it is the same God.

I give Muhammad, Jesus, Joseph Smith, Budda, Arjuna, Krishna, etc.  Pretty much the same standing.  Some speak to me clearer than others.

bencook2 wrote:
Want to see God?  Here are some suggestions:

Go see a Shuttle Launch.

Watch Tiger Woods Swing.

Have sex with someone you love.

Finger paint with a child.

Go fishing by yourself.

Fly into New York City at night.

Look at Adrianna Lima.

Read the Constitution.

Privately, quietly, humble yourself before God.

Is this God, then?

Actually view the remains of a shuttle disaster.

Provide comfort to a rape victim.

Wonder how a Buddhist like Tiger Woods can swing like he does.

Tell a child she is dying from cancer and will not be able to finger paint any longer.

Become lost while fishing and die from hypothermia.

Be a six-year-old boy, singing Jingle Bells, on his way to visit his relatives, only to die after his dad's car is hit by an airplane that ran off the runway in Chicago.

Don't read the Constitution because you can't read.

Privately, quietly, humbly go to sleep on some downtown business doorstep, homeless and freezing, while you ask yourself, "where is God?"

Tim Baker wrote:
Is this God, then?

Actually view the remains of a shuttle disaster.

Provide comfort to a rape victim.

Wonder how a Buddhist like Tiger Woods can swing like he does.

Tell a child she is dying from cancer and will not be able to finger paint any longer.

Become lost while fishing and die from hypothermia.

Be a six-year-old boy, singing Jingle Bells, on his way to visit his relatives, only to die after his dad's car is hit by an airplane that ran off the runway in Chicago.

Don't read the Constitution because you can't read.

Privately, quietly, humbly go to sleep on some downtown business doorstep, homeless and freezing, while you ask yourself, "where is God?"

I think you have officially crossed 100% into pesimissim.  No longer are you "devils advocate".  You have hopped the fence!

You keep wanting to parse out the God I believe in into different religions.  When I see him as the God of the faithful.  Not God of a religion.  Further you want to drag me into a discusion on FREE WILL.  We can do that but that would highjack this thread.  IF you want I will be glad to carry it on via email.

Briefly, God is present in all things.  Many Christians believe that "the spirit" leaves you when you do bad things.  That is a cop out.  That is assigning God our mortal frailty.  God does not need to turn his back when he disapproves.  He is God.  You asked if the things you listed where God.  My list saught to only reveil God.  Not lay blame.  So our lists don't exactly work on the same idea.

Don't forget the GOLD STANDARD for "God's word" is the King James Version.  VERSION  I doubt God has ever revised his message.  So there is really only one version.  I doubt King James and the Apostles where anymore inspired than anyone else.  An ounce of wrong is still wrong.

Are you saying that the KJV is flawed, but the best text we have to learn about God? Do you think that some parts of the Bible might be wrong, while other parts are accurate?

How should we learn about God? Does it matter which religion we choose--are they all equally valid?

-Jim

bencook2 wrote:
Don't forget the GOLD STANDARD for "God's word" is the King James Version.

Who set that standard? (he asked nonconfrontationally)  As opposed to the Vulgate, which predates the KJV by over a thousand years, or other versions of the Bible. I would venture that the majority of the Christian population of the world does not use the KJV, when taking Roman and Orthodox Catholics into account.

I think the "gold standard" is rather relative to the particular adherent one is talking to. But that's just my observation. I really don't care what one wishes to refer to.

Tim Baker wrote:
Is this God, then?

Actually view the remains of a shuttle disaster.

Provide comfort to a rape victim.

Tell a child she is dying from cancer and will not be able to finger paint any longer.

Become lost while fishing and die from hypothermia.

Be a six-year-old boy, singing Jingle Bells, on his way to visit his relatives, only to die after his dad's car is hit by an airplane that ran off the runway in Chicago.

Don't read the Constitution because you can't read.

Privately, quietly, humbly go to sleep on some downtown business doorstep, homeless and freezing, while you ask yourself, "where is God?"

Yup, that is 'God', too. The ONLY difference between the person who does not have faith in a creator/creatrix/source-of-creation, and the person who does, is that the former suffers more in each and every one of the above scenarios, while the latter suffers less.

Tim Baker wrote:
Religion is man/woman's term for an organized method of indoctrinating one's self and others into a particular spiritual dogma.

Faith is the hope that you are correct.

Actually, that's factually incorrect. Faith is not a hope.

kickfight wrote:

Actually, that's factually incorrect. Faith is not a hope.

faith  (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.



re·li·gion  (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Tim Baker wrote:
Wonder how a Buddhist like Tiger Woods can swing like he does.

No wonder at all; T. W. swings like he does because he imagines himself putting the ball right through the Buddha's forehead every time.

kickfight wrote:

Actually, that's factually incorrect. Faith is not a hope.

God isn't going to be happy with that comment.  A smighting might be heading the Washington way.

Psalm 25:21 "May integrity and uprightness protect me, because my hope is in you."

/t

bencook2 wrote:
I think you have officially crossed 100% into pesimissim.  No longer are you "devils advocate".  You have hopped the fence!

You keep wanting to parse out the God I believe in into different religions.  When I see him as the God of the faithful.  Not God of a religion.  Further you want to drag me into a discusion on FREE WILL.  We can do that but that would highjack this thread.  IF you want I will be glad to carry it on via email.

Briefly, God is present in all things.  Many Christians believe that "the spirit" leaves you when you do bad things.  That is a cop out.  That is assigning God our mortal frailty.  God does not need to turn his back when he disapproves.  He is God.  You asked if the things you listed where God.  My list saught to only reveil God.  Not lay blame.  So our lists don't exactly work on the same idea.

Nice dodge in regards to not answering my question.

Pessimism?  Not at all. My examples are quite real. The term would be realism.

I'm not trying to do anything about your God.  You make sense in many of your posts, but when challenged you default back to your true beliefs (which obviously are Christian from what I can read form your posts, posted in defense of your beliefs).

/t

kickfight wrote:

Yup, that is 'God', too. The ONLY difference between the person who does not have faith in a creator/creatrix/source-of-creation, and the person who does, is that the former suffers more in each and every one of the above scenarios, while the latter suffers less.

Who is to say these individuals aren't as spiritual or religious as any other?  Te six year old by in Chicago (crushed by a Boeing 737), the fisherman who got lost and died from hypertherma (happened here in Oregon this summer - he was a minister at one of our churches), the child who died from leukemia was one of my patients, the rape victim - pick any day and you'll find one in your local hospital, Shuttle Disaster - well we all know that story.  Why would these people suffers more? Why would this be so?  /t

Tim Baker wrote:
God isn't going to be happy with that comment.  A smighting might be heading the Washington way.

Psalm 25:21 "May integrity and uprightness protect me, because my hope is in you."

/t

So... are we SURE we understand the usage of 'hope' in the context of this psalm? Consider thine answer carefully, lest thee smite thyself in public anew!

Tim Baker wrote:
Who is to say these individuals aren't as spiritual or religious as any other?  Why would these people suffers more? Why would this be so?  /t

If they have faith in something beyond life, they suffer less at a time of crisis. The answer is pretty self-substantiating.

Tim Baker wrote:
Pessimism?  Not at all. My examples are quite real. The term would be realism.

They are real, but none of the examples you stated inherently excluded God (or an external creative force). So, if this is realism, then realism does not apparently exclude God (or an external creative force).

kickfight wrote:
So... are we SURE we understand the usage of 'hope' in the context of this psalm? Consider thine answer carefully, lest ye smite thyself in public anew!

Yes. God spoke to me and said it was so.  I'm also about as sure as Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton, Benny Hine, and the others who seem to be close personal friends of God.  BTW, any idea how long a smighting lasts?  I need to be in Seattle after the New Year and would hate to get caught up in the wrath of God. I don't think GEICO insures against locust

Philippians 2:19, I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy (Sorry, couldn't help using this one!) to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you.

kickfight wrote:

They are real, but none of the examples you stated inherently excluded God (or an external creative force). So, if this is realism, then realism does not apparently exclude God (or an external creative force).

Nor does it necessarily include Him. /t

kickfight wrote:
If they have faith in something beyond life, they suffer less at a time of crisis. The answer is pretty self-substantiating.

Really? And you know this how? Or is simply a belief?  /t

Tim Baker wrote:
Really? And you know this how? Or is simply a belief?  /t

No. It's a fact I have verified with others who have experienced solace via faith at a time of crisis. Reinforced by repeatable and verifiable experiment, it is as real as any scientific theory.