nineandnineteen wrote:
If you believe that, then why not multiple dimensions?

You mean, as in the case of string theory?

nineandnineteen wrote:
I'm atheist.  But if there IS a god, he/she won't turn me away because I ceased to believe...I've been a good person and lived a good life....isn't THAT what its about?

Yes, that's a huge part of what 'it's all about'; not bowin' and scrapin' and genuflectin' to some effigy or book of rules or whatever.

AND you can take it TO THE BANK that if the Universal Source Of Everything is in fact a 'God' (I have my doubts), and there is a 'Heaven' (same), then I'll be seeing ye there, 'cuz we're ALL meant to return there.

Vito wrote:

Too complex from the point that if there was a planet orbiting the sun that happened to be at the right place with the right temperture and the goo of amino acids just happened to connect together at the right time and then that evolved into me or you being able to use a computer to "debate" conscience thoughts and ideas. The reference point I use is that I (we) are more complex than the amino acids in the primordial soup. And the fact that we can contemplate our comlexity, we can judge it against what we know.

judging against what we know does nothing.  our ceiling for understanding 'complexity' is our own - we cannot conceive of a complexity that our mind is not 'complex' enough to comprehend.  the very idea of complexity is specific to our minds, and cannot be used to presume a 'divine' image of ourselves.  i see that to be severe egotism (that's not meant to be an insult to you personally - most people share your philosophy, i think).

David Johnson wrote:
Put it this way! When you die, you'll find out.... Let's just hope it's not too late, because you are either going to wake up in Heaven or Hell. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man comes to the Father except through me."
I know God is real, because I once was atheist. One night I went to this church with some people and from the time I step on the grounds of the church I felt something tugging on my heart. Everything I had ever done wrong went before me and I wanted forgive. this was before I ever heard a sermon, before church even started. I mean....No one told me anything about the church or God up to this point, they had just said wanna go to church, I said why not....... That night, I gave my life to Jesus, because I could feel His presense. After the altar service, one of the ministers cames up to me and says that God sent him to me to have him pray with me concerning my nerve problem and my back problem. There is no way this man could know, because I was at a church over 12 hours away from where I live. He prayed for me and I fell back on the floor and laid there for over an hour. When I got up, my back was straight and I knew I was healed. You see, I had epilypse and scoliosis. Thses weren't things that the people I was with knew about or that you could see from outward appearances, so I know that this was real and from God cause only He and my Mother knew. I went to my Doctor when I got back home and he ran 2 EEG's only to find that I do not have Epilypse any longer nor did I have Scoliosis. I was healed..... You can say what you will, but I have seen God do to much in the past 10 years that I have been saved, not to believe. I mean, this lady asked me to pray for her leg that was 2 inches shorter than the other. I did, and the leg grew back. I even have the documentation from her Doctor. That is just awesome. God is Good.....

This is really cool and is most awesome; its wonderfull that you did go to this church and I have no doubt you were at the right place at the right time. Healing energy can be channeled by many people, and it is not just a christian thing (they like to think it is, though). I was healing my wife's eyes just before we divorced, and they were getting much better (I have Reiki training). There's also other people who have healed themselves fully who aren't christians. This sort of thing happens all the time, and was happening before people started worshiping that which they call "god" now.

  It is my opinion that this energy that healed you did not come from this "god" the christians worship; I do not believe him to be the creator of anything but war and destruction (actually he didn't create this either but he feeds off this energy). I also feel that Jesus was talking about a higher power than "god." Is it any wonder his message was *so* much differant than the old testimate? He talked about love, turning the other cheek, love your enemy as you love your friend, etc. "God" talks about an eye for an eye, I am a jealous god, etc... It just doesn't make any sense. And all the murders and wars carried out in his name... This is not a god of love and healing.

  The concept of christianity is simply current and "living" mythology in a very long and rich series of mythes. It borrows from other mythes and stories, and it has been extremely successfull in supressing its competitors. I could just as easily worship this "Yahweh" character as I could any other mythic diety; I just don't like his energy. But instead I try to connect with the power that is beyond all this. I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here; its rather hard to put into words. I think that if you avoid hypocrisy and seek that which is pure you'll find what you seek (this is a generic statement; its meant for everyone).

  But again, your healing is a very wonderfull thing. That's something that's pure; may you find even more of that in your life and in others.

  -Pat-

Pat Thielen wrote:
This is really cool and is most awesome; its wonderfull that you did go to this church and I have no doubt you were at the right place at the right time. Healing energy can be channeled by many people, and it is not just a christian thing (they like to think it is, though). I was healing my wife's eyes just before we divorced, and they were getting much better (I have Reiki training). There's also other people who have healed themselves fully who aren't christians. This sort of thing happens all the time, and was happening before people started worshiping that which they call "god" now.

  It is my opinion that this energy that healed you did not come from this "god" the christians worship; I do not believe him to be the creator of anything but war and destruction (actually he didn't create this either but he feeds off this energy). I also feel that Jesus was talking about a higher power than "god." Is it any wonder his message was *so* much differant than the old testimate? He talked about love, turning the other cheek, love your enemy as you love your friend, etc. "God" talks about an eye for an eye, I am a jealous god, etc... It just doesn't make any sense. And all the murders and wars carried out in his name... This is not a god of love and healing.

  The concept of christianity is simply current and "living" mythology in a very long and rich series of mythes. It borrows from other mythes and stories, and it has been extremely successfull in supressing its competitors. I could just as easily worship this "Yahweh" character as I could any other mythic diety; I just don't like his energy. But instead I try to connect with the power that is beyond all this. I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here; its rather hard to put into words. I think that if you avoid hypocrisy and seek that which is pure you'll find what you seek (this is a generic statement; its meant for everyone).

  But again, your healing is a very wonderfull thing. That's something that's pure; may you find even more of that in your life and in others.

  -Pat-

Well, it seems that you are really informed, but you don't know what is real. In the bible, Jesus said that many would come to Him on that day of Judgement and say, I healed people, caused them to see again. And He wil lsay unto them, depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never KNEW you. If you really believe what you are saying, I want you to try something. I want you to ask Jesus to show himself to you. If you do this, I promise He will and you wil lthen be a believer. I believe in Jesus, not just because I was healed, but because I have a personal relationship with Him and I have even seen Him. Sounds crazy, but true. I do believe in biblical principals, so I do believe that faith heals....Christian or not.... Just like giving. If you give, it shall be given. that is why Bill gates is so rich.... Because he gives away 1/3rd of his Net worth every year. If you try Jesus, you will have life and life more abundantly. Wars and things like that happen, because Satan rules this earth and he will until Jesus returns to judge Satan. So, if people die, like things like Katrina, it wasn't God, it was the evil in the land. New Orleans was considered the most evil and darkest place to live in the USA. There was more Satanism there than anywhere else in the USA. If you look at the statistics of what happened to New Orleans, it's crazy.... Cause most of the Churches were saved or weren't even harmed. There was the largest church in New Orleans and they said even on the Weather Channel that it was amazing, because Katrina was heading straight for the church, but turned right before it got to it and went around it literaillt and then jumped back on line. That was God my friend, plain and simple..........

David Johnson wrote:
I even have the documentation from her Doctor.

No you don't. You also don't have any documentation that the leg was shorter in the first place.

David Johnson wrote:

Well, it seems that you are really informed, but you don't know what is real. In the bible, Jesus said that many would come to Him on that day of Judgement and say, I healed people, caused them to see again. And He wil lsay unto them, depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never KNEW you. If you really believe what you are saying, I want you to try something. I want you to ask Jesus to show himself to you. If you do this, I promise He will and you wil lthen be a believer. I believe in Jesus, not just because I was healed, but because I have a personal relationship with Him and I have even seen Him. Sounds crazy, but true. I do believe in biblical principals, so I do believe that faith heals....Christian or not.... Just like giving. If you give, it shall be given. that is why Bill gates is so rich.... Because he gives away 1/3rd of his Net worth every year. If you try Jesus, you will have life and life more abundantly. Wars and things like that happen, because Satan rules this earth and he will until Jesus returns to judge Satan. So, if people die, like things like Katrina, it wasn't God, it was the evil in the land. New Orleans was considered the most evil and darkest place to live in the USA. There was more Satanism there than anywhere else in the USA. If you look at the statistics of what happened to New Orleans, it's crazy.... Cause most of the Churches were saved or weren't even harmed. There was the largest church in New Orleans and they said even on the Weather Channel that it was amazing, because Katrina was heading straight for the church, but turned right before it got to it and went around it literaillt and then jumped back on line. That was God my friend, plain and simple..........

Why don't you believe what you want, and go what you feel, and I'll do the same? The evil is not in the land, its in the people. I don't buy that at all (evil being in the land that is). I also don't believe an all-loving, all-just, all-compassionate god would allow this Satan-person to do all this destruction. That bit of hypocrisy, and others, has yet to be explained to me by anyone. Well, other than "read the bible," which in my mind is basically propoganda and is full of these hypocrisies and contradictions. I would love to hear a rational explanation for the hyposcrisy with an all loving/death dealing mayhem-happy diety without using the bible as a crutch. New Orleans is not a town full of satanism (where did you see figures that showed it had more "satanists" than anywhere else?), and it certainly did not deserve to be destroyed and devastated by a storm such as Katrina. And I'm sure you can find all sorts of churches that have been detroyed by that storm. I also call B.S. on that "Weather Channel" report; a 400 mile wide storm cannot go around a church and then go back on path. That's absurd! And... Tornados eat churches all the time, and people die in them during some of these storms. Saying that some churches were saved by god, or whoever, and ignoring that others weren't and thousands of people were left homeless doesn't prove anything. It certainly wasn't a miracle... if that's a miracle than this god of your's can keep them to himself. The world would be a lot safer without them.

  We are all on our own path and have our own lessons to learn. I have mine and you have your's. I allow you to practice as you see fit, and I don't think it's too much to allow me to do the same. Your religion is not the only way to tap into healing energy or Spiritual enlightenement. People have been doing it for thousands of years before this Yahweh came down from the mountain and they'll continue long after he's just another myth in a long line of myths. To me, enlightenment exists above and beyond this diety, and that is the path I'm on. When you say "If you try Jesus, you will have life and life more abundantly" that's basically a simple concept of mysticism: As above so below as within so without. In other words, if you allow in postive, loving and healing energy you will manifest that in your life and your world. This is true, and you relate Jesus with this universal energy. That's a very good thing, but it's not the only way to experience it. I must admit, this arrogance does bother me a bit. But I can deal and move on. Remember: I have experienced very similar things to you without invoking Jesus. This comes from a higher power and is universal - anyone can tap into it and experience it. It is not owned by any one of the thousands of religions that exist of have existed on this planet (and probably many others). I seek unconditional love in the Universe; you seem to have found a great source of condiitonal love. I believe Creator is far beyond this sort of petty thing.

  So, let's agree to disagree on this one. I'm not going to try to change your beliefs, and I'd appreciate it if you'd allow me mine.

  -Pat-

Doug Mackay    DMP wrote:
i believe firmly in a higher entity, and by goodness he is having a fine old laugh at mankind for sure, while pulling the strings and whistling zippateydoda outta  his asshole. [ thanks CHEVY CHASE]

Is that why it smells so bad...? Wow... god-farts... What's he been eating anyway?

  Smelly god
  Smelly god
  What have they been feeding you...?

  Sorry...

Pat Thielen wrote:
Is that why it smells so bad...? Wow... god-farts... What's he been eating anyway?

  Smelly god
  Smelly god
  What have they been feeding you...?

  Sorry...

godfarts, i am going to use that, and i know i stink , but thanks.

Nihilus wrote:
A person starts a thread about querying the more porous aspects of personal theism and, sure enough, the wacky, anecdotal, fanatical advertisments start poppin out.

Really...that you have a broken relationship with yourself, via an imaginary proxy, is no reason to force the idea into the face of someone delving into their own self-discovery.

A little harsh Nihilus.
Granted, I don't agree with the absurd notion that New orleans was ravaged because of it being the "darkest, most evil" place in the states... This insulting, narrow minded religiocentric and ignorant statement has been proclaimated loudly (and on high) by a variety of arrogant theologians (zealots) with a bug up their pius assess....... besides that, it's bullshit.
However, it is another viewpoint and, if the op is seriously in search of answers, he should have the option of hearing all sides (regardless of how rediculous that side may seem!).

P.S. (to the poster above Nihilus)  I believe Bill Gates is a confirmed atheist.

T H Taylor wrote:
A little harsh Nihilus...

Well, let's compare.

T H Taylor wrote:
... insulting, narrow minded religiocentric and ignorant...

versus

Nihilus wrote:
...wacky, anecdotal, fanatical...

I think your string of adjectives might win out over mine in the "harsh" category.

T H Taylor wrote:
However, it is another viewpoint and, if the op is seriously in search of answers, he should have the option of hearing all sides (regardless of how rediculous that side may seem!).

And he now has mine!

Nihilus wrote:

No you don't. You also don't have any documentation that the leg was shorter in the first place.

I before got into photography went to college and after I got out became am Evangelist. I had all sorts of Pastors and People asking to speak at there youth events and at revivals. So, because of this, a lady that knew about me asked me to pray for her leg. I did just believing that God take away her pain. You see, she had been on meds since she was real young due to the back pain that came from that lag being 2 inches shorter. She had dulled the pain by getting special shoes made to even out her walk, but she still needed pain meds and that is what she wanted prayer for. She no longer wanted to have to take pain meds and she wanted her pain to go away. I prayed and the next day she called me and told me that she got out of bed to go make a pot of coffee and on her way back to her bedroom, she noticed that she wasn't limping. She also noticed that she wasn't in pain. She found my number that I had given her and called me. She told me about it and I was happy for her, but skeptical. You see, I believe in instant healing, but I don't believe in these ministers that pray for people and tell them to stop taking there meds they are healed. I believe that God put Doctors here for a reason and that you shouldn't stop taking medication until the Doctor says it's okay. I told her that she needed to go to her Doctor immediately and have him check her out. She ent that day and he was shocked. He stated that a miracle had happened to her. I checked her out a few times after that and then told her she didn't need her special shoes any longer and that she could stop the meds. When she told me, I was still a little skeptical and had friends that thought it was a lie, so I asked her to send me a copy of the Doctor report and she did. It was awesome. He stated that he had been seeing her since she was 12 and that after many test, that she was completely whole and healed. It even read, she is a miracle. Her leg grew 2.2 inches. If you want to know. I am not Evangelizing any longer. I stopped in 2000 to pursue other interest, mainly my wife. God wanted me to focus on making a home for my wife and future family. I am a musician at my church and I will recording a solo album this year. I do have plans to oneday go back into that type of ministry, but for now, I am just being ministered to and I am enjoying being married. I also just found out that I am going to be a Father.

David Johnson wrote:
The reply about New Orlens is simply this. God allowed Sodom and Gomorah to be distroyed because of the sin that reigned over the city. The city was perverted and immoral. Well, God allowed Katrina to go through New Orleans, because of the same reasons. You will see, what Satan meant for evil, God will turn for good. Over the next few years, you will see and hear more and more about Christianity and God coming from New Orleans than ever before. New Orleans will be known as a Christian city.

I find this disgusting. People DIED in New Orleans, have lost family members and homes; they've lost entire lives there. And you sit back and say god meant it to happen. And now, oh-boy, its going to be a christian city. Can you hear what you're saying? How is this right? How is this justified? How is this good and Spiritually sound? New Oreans is an American City and it is not, nor was it ever, an immoral and satanic place of evil. I'd like you very much to provide me statistics that show that New Orelans had more satanists living in it than any other Amercian city. I also want you to prove, and this is a good place for science, that it was the most evil city in the union. And while you're at it, why not define what evil is anyway. It really bothers me that someone who claims rightousness because of a relationship with this god can be okay that people died in this tragedy. This is part of that hypocrisy I was talking about earlier.

  Having said that, I don't believe this was an act of god anyway. This god is more interested in wars and bombings than controling the weather and drowning cities. The reason New Orleans was devastated so badly was because the levies broke due to an immense storm surge. When you build on the American coast you will be hit by a hurricane every now and again. That's the way it works. And if you build your city below sea level you will get flooded. Its a tregedy, and it was a terrible thing, but it was hardly surprising and god (or any other "supreme" being) had nothing to do with it.

  Having said that, allowing a city to be detroyed because it doesn't fit in with your sketchy morals is wrong, and if god indeed allowed this happen because of "evil" then god himself is evil.  There's many referances to this in the bible... this god carries on like a spoiled brat when he doesn't get his way. And its for this reason (actions speak louder than words) that I've chosen to seek a higher power and connect to that because I feel this one is false. And this is also reflected in some of his followers... Evil is evil, unless god does it. Then it's all about god working in strange and mysterious ways. Yeah... I call B.S. on this one! Evil is evil and it doesn't matter who is doing it.

  So anyway... sorry about my rant. But it just sickens me when people claim that the people involved in such a disaster deserved it. That it was divine retribution. That they brought it upon themselves. Pathetic.

  -P-

Seth Rutledge wrote:
Who asked me how I can disbelieve in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny but believe in God...

Now the thing is, I kinda do believe in God...but he raised a good point...I've never seen any more evidence of God's existence than I have of the Easter Bunny...

Thoughts?

I think I saw that movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0118884/

David Johnson wrote:
No, don't think so. Mahammad was a murderer and rapist who while on the run met and Angel that told him he was a Prophet. He then converted 1000's, but he converted them by threatening there lives. Jesus would have never been this way. Jesus dies and rose again and then assended into Heaven. Mohammad died and is still in the grave. Jesus said he would not return until the Prophecy of the Old and New Testement were fulfilled and even now Atheist Scientist are saying that the Bibles Prophecies are the most accurate and are being fulfilled today.
Also about the other statements..... I never said that God judged New Orleans. God was grieved by the lost lives and even more about the people that died and were condemned to Hell. God loves everyone, but he has given them away to escape judgement. If the people have heard of Him and choose not to follow him, then His word says they will spend eternity in Hell. But, if they never heard and die, then God is Just and excepts them. It's like this.... You cut your finger and it gets infected, bcause you refuse to apply ointment to it. The cut is SIN and the ointment is Jesus. The infection begins to spread and again, ointment is offered, but you still refuse. Then in the end before the infection spread throughout the whole hand and arm, you must cut the finger off. Well, Jesus looks at that as His own finger and he hurts and cries over having to cut the finger (person) off, but he has to with tears in his eyes and afterwards he always has a rememberance because of the missing finger. God doesn't Judge and condemn us, we condemn ourselves. Once we choose to follow sin, we walk out from under His blanket of protection and Satan is allowed to try and destroy us. It just the way it is. God gave us free will, He will not go against that.

I don't know where even to begin with this one. It sounds like you're simply paroting back what you've heard others say; do you own anyof this yourself? Here's the thing: an all-loving all-compassionate being will not do an evil deed. Allowing evil to happen is an evil deed... and if this being is all-powerfull I would expect him to stop evil from being commited. But instead it is allowed, and sometimes even encouraged. After all, who destroyed Soddom and Gommora? Who flooded the Earth and killed countless innocent people and creatures? Who killed the first born of the Egyptions? These are all acts of unadulterated evil, and in the bible this god is given all the credit. This is not an all-loving all-compassionate supreme being. It is an evil being that has a great deal of fun smiting those that he gets annoyed with... like an angry little boy kicking a puppy. Of course, this god goes one better and allows people to be cast for eternity into this place called Hell for eternal torture. Wow... that's exactly what I'd expect an all-loving all-compassionate diety to do. And he cries about it... that makes me feel so much better. The evidence and the myths speak for themselves - and I know there has to be something that is truly all-loving and all-compassionate. Altruistic and unconditional love are aspects of what I'd expect a supreme being to have; I would expect that such a being would have transcended that which is evil and unjust. This god hasn't done that; his love is not unconditional... in fact, its very conditional and he allows and even participates in evil. So, can you explain to me why this god is allowed to commit acts of evil without any repercussions? Didn't Jesus say something about "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," and yet this god commits evil acts all the time. Why does this not apply? This only shows me his true nature, and as I've stated before I seek a higher power. This god ain't it...
  So, Muhammad was evil because he used to be a murderer and converted people by threatening them. Hmmm... this god is probably the biggest murderer out there. But that's beside the point; if Muhammad is evil for his converting methods then so are the christians. How many peoples in the New World were converted "by the sword" of murdered. How about the "Holy Inquisition" that tortured and murdered thousands, if not millions, of Europeans. How about the crusades, where both christian (Constantinople) and Muslin cities were sacked and burned to the ground, after of course their people were raped and murdered? This thing called christianity has a long and detailed history of atrocities that make Muhammad out to be a choir boy. And it continues to this day with the murder of doctors that perform abortions, to the bombing of family planning clinics, to warfare and terrorism activitied in northern Ireland... the destruction never stops. And yet, this god is a good guy. Yeah, right. Actions speak louder than words... and these actions speak volumes.
  So, anyway, I believe there is a higher power that is beyond all this pettiness. I believe that is where the healing energy comes from, and I believe that is where we return to when we leave this world at death. And I also feel we return for subsequant lifetimes in order to learn all that we need to learn; after all, you can't perfect yourself Spiritually in just one lifetime. I think we are all incredibly creative and wonderfull beings of light, energy, and love, and that we have much to learn. We're all on differant life paths and learning differant lessons; it is this reason I believe the act of "converting" someone (or an entire people) to be a rather selfish and evil act. People need to be allowed to learn the lessons they are here for without interference. But then again, the attempted conversion, or death by not converting, may be their lessons. I wish you well on your path.

  -Pat-

  PS - You are aware that your take on Jesus and Muhammad come from your own religious dogma. The Muslims and the Jews have a differant take on the whole thing, and they worship the same diety. So, whose right? Why do you assume you're right? And why all the confusion? If this god-guy wants us to find him then why put up all these roadblocks? Its like he wants to send us all to this place called Hell. Hmmm... yet more evil... Again I ask: Where is the good in that? Truly, a being that is all-loving and all-compassionate wouldn't play games like that. Its really that simple.

David Johnson wrote:
Put it this way! When you die, you'll find out.... Let's just hope it's not too late, because you are either going to wake up in Heaven or Hell.

So you believe.

When you die, will you be surprised if you return as a lower animal or insect because of your lack of faith in the "right" G*d and your improper behavior according to their faith? How about having your soul eaten by the Devourer for your "improper" faith? (It couldn't be the Fields of Yalu, unless you were properly mummified and embalmed.) Would you be surprised to find yourself in the hell you claim, because of your misstatements (AKA lies, if you know better; misinformed statements if you're merely ignorant) about other religions?

David Johnson wrote:
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man comes to the Father except through me."

Citing Jesus to prove "you are either going to wake up in heaven or hell" is pretty darn circular.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but if you want to justify it, you'll have to do a lot better than "the bible says it", since that document is known propaganda, and it relies of the assumption of the existance of G*d for it's own existence. Since it relies on that, it can't show that G*d exists just because it says so.

Your personal experiences, on the other hand, provided you with a belief in G*d that you say you previously denied (rather than merely questioned). Great; faith can be an excellent thing. Would you have been influenced at all if someone had made such claims to you before your conversion in that church?

Vito wrote:
Yes.  Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were "invented" for little kids within the last few centuries as a marketing tool to sell toys and stuff. The tooth fairy is just that, a "fairy" tale. God is God. While I believe in evolution, it's just tooo complex for evolution to be random (for certain chemicals to combine to make my memory, or thought). So something had to be behind it, guiding it or planning it and making those chemicals and their interactions possible. The name we give to the power that did just that is God.

Not even gonna touch the ID argument but you're way off base about Santa and the Easter Bunny.  They have BECOME mass marketing tools, but that's not why they were "invented."  Both pre-date Christianity as symbols of other faiths, and the idea of Santa Claus as we thunk of him goes back to a 4th century Christian saint after his older roots, so "last few centuries" is way off.
     If you study history, all the Christian holidays were taken from pre-existing religious festivals that existed in some form in many cultures around the world that usually marked major turning points in the year such as the Solstices & Equinoxes.  As a for instance, the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year, falls towards the end of December.  Any good Biblical scholar will tell you jesus was actually not born in December, but more likely in August or September some time.  As the Christians spread to new areas, rather than alienating people by trying to ban practice of their old ways they adapted.  So Christ's birthday was moved to December to fall near the Solstice.  Several of the cultures that had these celebrations had some sort of myth about a gift bringer from the Gods.  Notably among worshippers of the Nordic culture there was a legend of Odin, a heavyset bearded God, coming in his reindeer-drawn sleigh to bring needed food & cheer to a Viking village whose men were away at sea.
     Christians replaced these various figures with Saint Nicholas.  Various depictions of the figure of Santa Claus and St. Nick have evolved from there (do a Google search for "Papa Noel").  From Wikipedia:
     Saint Nicholas is the common name for Saint Nicholas of Myra, who lived in 4th century Byzantine Lycia (part of modern Turkey), who had a reputation for secret gift-giving. This is as much as is generally known about him in the West.
     This historical character was the inspiration for a mythical figure known as Nikolaus in Germany and Sinterklaas in the Netherlands and Flanders, which in turn was the inspiration for the myth of Santa Claus. Sinterklaas (a contracted form of Sint Nicolaas) is a major celebration in the Netherlands and in Flanders (see below). Among Orthodox Christians, the historical Saint Nicholas is remembered and revered.
     It's only been since Coca Cola created the image of Santa for an add that we now think of as "Santa" that the figure has become a largely commercial entity.  Before that add in the early 1900's, Santa Claus was very much a figure of faith.

     As for the poor Easter Bunny, early cultures also celebrated various & assorted fertility holidays in the Spring (often with some element of their God being ressurected from the dead, something else Christians borrowed) where they would do things like exchange eggs as symbols of fertility in the coming new year.  They would also do fun things like have town orgies where everyone would have group sex in the fields to spur the crops to grow.  For all the "sanctity of marriage" crowd, marriages were held every year at these fests and they lasted till the next year when partners would be swapped.  Bunnies were often used as a symbol at these times because bunnies...well, you know...like bunnies.  When Christians replaced these celebrations with Easter, it was nearly impossible to stamp out all these old traditions so they were largely ignored and as the belief-based part of them faded they were co-opted by commercial interests.  Models, take heart, every time you eat a Cadbury Creme Egg, the calories don't count, you're helping the crops grow  ;-)

     Our friend the Tooth Fairy goes way back as well due to mystical properties assigned to a child shedding his first tooth.  Vikings would pay a "tooth fee" for one and then carry them as good luck charms, for instance.  In several cultures (including Mexico today) the idea was of a "tooth mouse" who took the tooth and left money.  This got assosciated with house eleves & brownies in English/Celtic culture and morphed in to fairies here.

     It's worth noting that the reason Jehovah's Witnesses don't observe any holidays is because they acknowledge that the Biblical basis for any of them is shaky at best & they and their dates were taken from pre-existing pagan festivals.

Vito wrote:
Religion was created in the last few millenium, not God, I'd argue back. Yes, as a way to control (and I mean give guidence on "how to live") the people.

More like evolved in tandem with political structure to control the people to support the ruling classes & keep the workers in line.
Going back to the rise of civlizations, there arose leaders who were usually the toughest & strongest SOB's around.  Then you had your shamans/mediine men/holy men who could explain why we were born & died, where the lightning came from, etc.  At some point the 2 lines merged or worked together & you got priest-kings, or a leader who wanted his weaker son to rule so he conspired with the Holy men to have the son declared annointed by the Gods.  So religion evolved from there to foster these systems of class control.  It was repeatedly tweaked to support the ruling class as neeeded and foster a sheep-like working class.  As a for instance, the Catholic prohibitions against birth control & abortion really only became a serious issue as Catholicism was under threat of large schisms, as the Chruch wanted to ensure Catholics would continue to breed a large base for the Church.

It's all a form of social control.

Riedel Photography wrote:
Everybody knows we were genetically engineered by an alien race.

I see you've been hanging out w/Tom Cruise.

Ty Simone wrote:
BUT, the basic tenets of religion, ALL major religions (and I am referring only to Good based religions. Those followers of the Temple of Set for example are NOT included in this statement.) is as follows:
1. Good and Evil exist.
1 a. Good is preferable over Evil
1 b. Therefore you should do good, and you will be rewarded after death.

2. There is a higher power that shaped the universe and crafted our life.
2 a. How they did that is always a matter of debate... I mean Faith.
2 b. They also created everything else.
2 c. They made us the dominate species.
2 d. We should worship them for making us Exist......

Why stop there.  Tell the rest of the story ...

3. Anyone who disagrees with me is a heathen, infidel, or other disgusting unbeliver.
3 a. All heathens, infidels, etc. must be converted or eliminated.
3 b. Heathens, infidels, etc. who resist must be coerced, forced or eliminated.

4. Degrading, humiliating, abusing, and killing people is bad.
4 a. Degrading, humiliating, abusing, and killing people can be effective at coercing, forcing, or eliminating heathens, and it makes me feel all riteous.
4 b. Degrading, humiliating, abusing, and killing people in the name of god is good and riteous.

Spirituality is a natural, healthy part of being human.  Religion is a bastardization of that and is the most evil, insidious institution ever invented by mankind.  It ALWAYS leads to degradation of the individual spirit and the corruption of humanity.  It disguises itself in "charity" and promises escape from reality for the weak minded while subjecting them to the control of those pursuing power and wealth.

Tim Hammond wrote:
Spirituality is a natural, healthy part of being human.  Religion is a bastardization of that and is the most evil, insidious institution ever invented by mankind.  It ALWAYS leads to degradation of the individual spirit and the corruption of humanity.  It disguises itself in "charity" and promises escape from reality for the weak minded while subjecting them to the control of those pursuing power and wealth.

Agreed.  Spirituality is that pull or connection to the divine several posters have spoken of.  Religion is the idea that God kills people for not believing the way some think they should, or worse shooting doctors or bombing buildings because "god" tells you to.
Religions are organs of temporal power and as such always become corrupt and seek more power.
Churches of every faith lead more people from God than to God.
Spirituality is within, and is about your personal relationship with God.
Religion is about some man telling you HE'S the conduit to god becuase you're nto good enough to speak to God on your own.
And of course if there is a God we're all good enough since said God would be responsible for us all.

David Johnson wrote:
The reply about New Orlens is simply this. God allowed Sodom and Gomorah to be distroyed because of the sin that reigned over the city.

Get your fictions straight. "God" supposedly sent angels with firy swords and burning sulphur and Uzis and stuff and laid waste to the place personal-like in this massive supernatural kind of drive-by. (Genesis 19)

But if you read between the lines it sounds like a historical justification for some ancient warfare, and a natural disaster or fire, that someone fictionalized heavily. It's pretty amazing anyone with enough brains to read internet message boards (and that's not a lot!) takes this dreck seriously. I sure hope that 3000 years from now people are smart enough that they don't find old copies of "Dark Knight" and make a religion out of Batman or something idiotic like the christians have done.

mjr.