bencook2 wrote:
Pathetic.  The most in depth analysis of Iraq you can find...and no one here had mentioned reading it.  Yet I can point out 50 "informed" posts on Iraq in just two threads.   

This is why debating with some of you people is like you bringing a knife to a howitzer fight.  You don't take the time to learn. 

I get picked on because I am not the best debator in the world...and my spelling makes my posts hard to read sometimes...but I fuckin' research the hell out of my positions.  Contrary to what alot of you believe I don't parrot Rush or Fox News.  I get this shit on my own through hours of research.  Some for school, some because of my deeply held responsibility to stay informed.

Shame on you people.  Read it or shut up about Iraq.  You have an opportunity to know more about Iraq in 30 mins of reading than 90% of the people you will meet.

Perhaps this spelling error began because there does exist in English a word spelled “allotâ€? which is a verb meaning to apportion or grant. The correct form, with “aâ€? and “lotâ€? separated by a space is perhaps not often encountered in print because good writers usually use other expressions such as “a great deal,â€? “often,â€? etc. If you can’t remember the rule, just remind yourself that just as you wouldn’t write “alittleâ€? you shouldn’t write “alot.â€?

Ciao Bella :-)

Chu Toi wrote:

Perhaps this spelling error began because there does exist in English a word spelled “allotâ€? which is a verb meaning to apportion or grant. The correct form, with “aâ€? and “lotâ€? separated by a space is perhaps not often encountered in print because good writers usually use other expressions such as “a great deal,â€? “often,â€? etc. If you can’t remember the rule, just remind yourself that just as you wouldn’t write “alittleâ€? you shouldn’t write “alot.â€?

Ciao Bella :-)

Typical...did I spell that right?  Or is it Typecal or Tipical....no I think it is TYPICAL!

bencook2 wrote:

Typical...did I spell that right?  Or is it Typecal or Tipical....no I think it is TYPICAL!

You are such a smartie! Your personal issue might be more "topical". Since Engilsh is so troubling for you, we'll try something a little different, again.  Just for you, cuz you are such a loveable fella.

Boa Noite Ben y muito obrigado (for the fun times).

Chu Toi wrote:

You are such a smartie! Your personal issue might be more "topical". Since Engilsh is so troubling for you, we'll try something a little different, again.  Just for you, cuz you are such a loveable fella.

Boa Noite Ben y muito obrigado (for the fun times).

did ya read it????????????????????????/

Brian Diaz wrote:
This is so obviously fake!

These statistics are made up!

Who could possibly believe this garbage?  Here are just a few of the lies spread around here:

U.S. Troop Fatalities since March 2003 - 4
U.S. Troops Wounded in Action since March 2003 - 7
Estimates of Iraqi Civilians Killed Since the Start of the War - 9
Iraqi Civilian Killed as a Result of Acts of War since May 2003 - 10
Car Bombs in Iraq (Lethal and Non-Lethal) - 10
Non-Iraqi Civilian Contractors Killed in Iraq - 13
Journalists Killed in Iraq - 14
Iraqis Kidnapped - 16
Foreign Nationals Kidnapped in Iraq since May 2003 - 16
Total Number of Insurgents Detained or Killed  - 17
Iraqi Prison Population - 17
Number of Daily Attacks by Insurgents - 22
American Military Helicopters Downed in Iraq - 23
Number of Registered Cars in Baghdad - 36
Telephone subscribers - 36
Internet subscribers - 36
Tons of Mail Sent by Iraqis - 37

Come on!

Ummmm...Brian, these are the page numbers of the Brookings Report, not the actual numbers.  I do believe I hear Ben laughing his ass off right now

Dyanov wrote:
Well I read the piece.
While this is a good attempt at quantifying what has gone on and what is going on, these figures are very rough estimates. I believe it is impossible for us to really know hat is going on over there, without a lot of first hand experience.

Some of the most reliable parts of the report are the poll results, which surprisingly do show that many people over there feel that things are getting better. Of course the Sunnis don't like it. They used to be in charge and they had all the spoils.

The polls also indicate that most people would like the U.S. to leave pretty soon.

What do you think of what you read?

Pretty much the same as you.  I thought the quality of life indicators were very telling of what the future of Iraq can and might hold.  I say can because the indicators are there and might because there are too many variables to say for certian.

But things are headed in a positive direction.  If we can stop the fucking Sunnis from blowing up mosques. 

You are right.  This data should only be viewed with a healthy dose of anecdotal evidence from people who are actually there seeing it happen.  Numbers, while absolute, are easy to manipulate.

The fact that the Iraqis want us to leave is not an ah-ha for any of us.  No shit.  Just like when that poll came out that said US soldiers want to go home...no shit.
What is an ah-ha moment, is the fact that the majority of Iraqis don't want the US out until the job is done.

If you think in terms of the population 70-ish% shia' and Kurds vs 30-ish% sunni...we are not in a bad position.

Alot (for my friend Chu) Alot, of this will come down to how well the new government works.  Right now it is two steps forward...one step back.

area291 wrote:
I agree with ya, ben.  People need to be informed. 

But despite all of the findings it all comes down to this; the man at the bargaining table...sitting alone.

Well put...

PS...your fucking AVATAR rocks!

acidstudios wrote:

Ummmm...Brian, these are the page numbers of the Brookings Report, not the actual numbers.  I do believe I hear Ben laughing his ass off right now

Just about pissed myself. 

You know this is how conspiracy theorists get there information.  I can see it now.  Some wacko website listing the table of contents as the US government propaganda body count!!!!!!   Too funny.

Brian Diaz wrote:
This is so obviously fake!

These statistics are made up!

Who could possibly believe this garbage?  Here are just a few of the lies spread around here:

U.S. Troop Fatalities since March 2003 - 4
U.S. Troops Wounded in Action since March 2003 - 7
Estimates of Iraqi Civilians Killed Since the Start of the War - 9
Iraqi Civilian Killed as a Result of Acts of War since May 2003 - 10
Car Bombs in Iraq (Lethal and Non-Lethal) - 10
Non-Iraqi Civilian Contractors Killed in Iraq - 13
Journalists Killed in Iraq - 14
Iraqis Kidnapped - 16
Foreign Nationals Kidnapped in Iraq since May 2003 - 16
Total Number of Insurgents Detained or Killed  - 17
Iraqi Prison Population - 17
Number of Daily Attacks by Insurgents - 22
American Military Helicopters Downed in Iraq - 23
Number of Registered Cars in Baghdad - 36
Telephone subscribers - 36
Internet subscribers - 36
Tons of Mail Sent by Iraqis - 37

Come on!

I know you're joking and you of course realize that the numbers on the right refer to the page number of the report where the issue is discussed.

If you want to know about Internet subscribers.... go to page 37

By coicidence however only 36 Iraqis have a telephone subscription.

Of course someone else has pointed out that your entire fallacy is wrong.
So my entire post is just one big NEVER MIND!

bencook2 wrote:

did ya read it????????????????????????/

Yes Ben, I did. Do you think I'd engage you without respect? I'm disappointed if that is where you are coming from. Gazillions of question marks aren't needed. I get your point, sweety.

Do you honestly think what you've posted here is supposed to be swallowed Carte Blanche?

I'm pretty new here as you pointed out to the moderators when you asked to have me banned. So, I'm wondering, did you actually enjoy a period here when people thought what you posted was legit? I'm just asking because until a moderator tells me otherwise, I'm going to bust you on your misleading shite and your political manipulation crap.

Dyanov wrote:

I know you're joking and you of course realize that the numbers on the right refer to the page number of the report where the issue is discussed.

If you want to know about Internet subscribers.... go to page 37

Don't you think it's odd that there are just 36 telephone subscribers and 36 Internet subscribers (probably several of them are the same people--because they're probably stuck on dial-up) but Iraqis sent 37 tons of snail mail?  How primitave!

Brian Diaz wrote:

Don't you think it's odd that there are just 36 telephone subscribers and 36 Internet subscribers (probably several of them are the same people--because they're probably stuck on dial-up) but Iraqis sent 37 tons of snail mail?  How primitave!

If you had read the report you would have read that "In Iraq a man commits a suicide attack every 30 minutes."

What I don't get is why the US can't find that 1 guy.
And then if he blew himself up why is he around to do it again?

Chu Toi wrote:
I'm pretty new here as you pointed out to the moderators when you asked to have me banned. So, I'm wondering, did you actually enjoy a period here when people thought what you posted was legit? I'm just asking because until a moderator tells me otherwise, I'm going to bust you on your misleading shite and your political manipulation crap.

Okay, I am sorry, but posting directly against someone repeatedly on a thread that has 2 moderators on it is getting you a day off.

~Krista~ wrote:

Okay, I am sorry, but posting directly against someone repeatedly on a thread that has 2 moderators on it is getting you a day off.

I think it's my sunny disposition...

bencook2 wrote:

I think it's my sunny disposition...

I think dealing with political threads is going to make me hate people. So I am taking myself off for the evening too...G'night everyone. Happy hunting!

Dyanov wrote:
Here we are talking about Sunni and Shiites and Kurds blowing each other up

and look us, doing the same thing on this thread.

What kind of example are we setting for those knuckle heads in Iraq, when we are acting like the 3 stooges on this thread.

Can't we all just get along.....

Of course not, we're on the internet

Well, actually that is the beauty of the internet and this great social experiment.  This is what is great about democracy and liberty.  We can yell at each other on the Internet..."debate" the issues.  Make points, counter points...get it in the open.  All of this without needing to blow up a bus to make a point.  UdoR can get on my last nerve...and yes I would like to punch him...but I would never.  And, I certainly am not going to blow up something to make a point.  Instead, we disagree.  Passionately sometimes.  But, we remain civil. (atleast, moderately civil)

You know it is funny when people get upset because of the back bitting in politics.  Politics only works when people disagree.  Democracy only works when people disagree.  As with all great things, democracy is easy to exploit.  But when it works, it is a thing to behold! 

Open debate is the same way.  It is a great exchange but it is easy to exploit.  The moderators have a difficult job keeping the debate open...Rules, but not too many rules...   Slack, but not too much slack...  As much as UdoR gets on my nerves...I respect him for coming back everyday to listen to us whine and cry about the inconsequential.

I love a good debate.  Folks like Timm Baker and KM Von Sliedl might get on my nevers with there circular arguments based on last weeks marching orders from the left...but you know what would suck worse than debating with them.  Debating alone.  Wait.  Hold on a sec.  That's a different kind of debate...of which I am a master!!!!

Hall Photo wrote:
So, in summary:

The rest of Iraq is finally getting better off in most measures than it was before.  But Baghdad (and presumably the rest of the Sunni triangle) is considerably worse.  On average, it's a little better, excluding all the stuff blowing up.

It doesn't tell us whether we'll have gained anything strategically, even assuming Iraq can pull itself together (perhaps a client state of a nuclear-equipped Iran, which will then control a huge portion of the world's oil and natural gas?).  It doesn't tell us how much better things could have been but for some of the administration's boneheaded moves and shoddy planning.

Most importantly, it doesn't give us any idea of the opportunity cost.  We've overthrown governments for a lot less than 2,300 of our soldiers and half a trillion dollars.  Heck, we've done it in Iraq.  For what we'll have to spend in Iraq, we could've given every peshmerga fighter in Kurdistan an Abrams tank and said, "Go to town," and still had enough to build schools throughout the Muslim world.  The growing cost of the war in dollar terms is what really makes me think it's a bad idea, though it's not tactful to discuss when everybody talks about actual deaths.  If we could have done it for what we were told it would cost initially (next to nothing), then we'd have a different story.  Even for the U.S. government, half a trillion is a ton of money, and it could have done a lot of good in a lot of ways.

Well said.  I share your bridled optimism of what hopefully will be.  Half a trillion dollars is a bargain if we can stablize that region in the next decade.  What do we spend on aid to Israel, Palistine, Lebanon, Egypt?  What do/did we spend watching suspect regimes in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Palistine, Lebanon, Egypt, even Saudi Arabia and Jordan.  What does it cost us to watch our backs?  What about humanitarian aid?  In short, the cost of containment for Saddam, minus the benifit of a stable region in the distant future will more than out way half a trillion dollars to a Country whos GDP is 11,750,000,000,000.17.  Ok I added the 17 cents.  That was my contribution last year.

bencook2 wrote:
Well said.  I share your bridled optimism of what hopefully will be.  Half a trillion dollars is a bargain if we can stablize that region in the next decade.  What do we spend on aid to Israel, Palistine, Lebanon, Egypt?  What do/did we spend watching suspect regimes in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Palistine, Lebanon, Egypt, even Saudi Arabia and Jordan.  What does it cost us to watch our backs?  What about humanitarian aid?  In short, the cost of containment for Saddam, minus the benifit of a stable region in the distant future will more than out way half a trillion dollars to a Country whos GDP is 11,750,000,000,000.17.  Ok I added the 17 cents.  That was my contribution last year.

Heh, that's quite an 'if'.  And sadly, I don't think even a stable Iraq will have that much of an effect outside its borders.  I just read a recent estimate that it might cost up to $2 trillion - we probably could have gone further toward settling the region in a number of other ways for that much money.  Not to mention that the US could singlehandedly achieve the Millenium Development Goals with that, build schools throughout Pakistan and Afghanistan, provide the social services that Hamas provides, etc.

Dyanov wrote:
If you had read the report you would have read that "In Iraq a man commits a suicide attack every 30 minutes."

What I don't get is why the US can't find that 1 guy.
And then if he blew himself up why is he around to do it again?

Do you think the 37 cars registered in Baghdad include the 10 car bombs?

Hall Photo wrote:

Heh, that's quite an 'if'.  And sadly, I don't think even a stable Iraq will have that much of an effect outside its borders.  I just read a recent estimate that it might cost up to $2 trillion - we probably could have gone further toward settling the region in a number of other ways for that much money.  Not to mention that the US could singlehandedly achieve the Millenium Development Goals with that, build schools throughout Pakistan and Afghanistan, provide the social services that Hamas provides, etc.

Speaking of "read(ing) a recent estimate" here are two links that bolster my point.
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.2 … detail.asp

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.2 … detail.asp  (this one actually touches on what you are talking about.)

Brian Diaz wrote:

Do you think the 37 cars registered in Baghdad include the 10 car bombs?

Sadly we will never know.

bencook2 wrote:

I think it's my sunny disposition...

Don't you mean Sunni disposition?

bencook2 wrote:

Well, actually that is the beauty of the internet and this great social experiment.  This is what is great about democracy and liberty.  We can yell at each other on the Internet..."debate" the issues.  Make points, counter points...get it in the open.  All of this without needing to blow up a bus to make a point.  UdoR can get on my last nerve...and yes I would like to punch him...but I would never.  And, I certainly am not going to blow up something to make a point.  Instead, we disagree.  Passionately sometimes.  But, we remain civil. (atleast, moderately civil)

You know it is funny when people get upset because of the back bitting in politics.  Politics only works when people disagree.  Democracy only works when people disagree.  As with all great things, democracy is easy to exploit.  But when it works, it is a thing to behold! 

Open debate is the same way.  It is a great exchange but it is easy to exploit.  The moderators have a difficult job keeping the debate open...Rules, but not too many rules...   Slack, but not too much slack...  As much as UdoR gets on my nerves...I respect him for coming back everyday to listen to us whine and cry about the inconsequential.

I love a good debate.  Folks like Timm Baker and KM Von Sliedl might get on my nevers with there circular arguments based on last weeks marching orders from the left...but you know what would suck worse than debating with them.  Debating alone.  Wait.  Hold on a sec.  That's a different kind of debate...of which I am a master!!!!

I agree with your post.

However, the internet is not as safe as you think. Some companies are now developing a program that sends a signal to the computer of your enemy and blows it up. So far all they have been able to achieve is a computer that just crashes on the user.

And I've heard that the moderators are trying to get permission to use a device that sends an electric shock to the keyboard of members every time an mm er gets out of line.

Dyanov wrote:
And I've heard that the moderators are trying to get permission to use a device that sends an electric shock to the keyboard of members every time an mm er gets out of line.

Google "Active Denial System".

Brian Diaz wrote:
Google "Active Denial System".

Hmmm, the Google Active Denial System, or in electronic government speak, EGADS.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
This thread would be a lot more interesting if it had something to do with nudity.

What's wrong with naked power, naked ambition, naked revenge.....

(go ahead i've set you up, do your thing)